1579 replies to this topic

[3 h g g r]

jesus christ this merger is stupid...play and find out for yourself

[Alreech]

50 50, on 29 April 2020 - 08:08 PM, said:

Yes people stopped playing in group queue because they were getting stomped but that is because there were no other opponents to play against because there were not enough players in the queue and on that server.

Stomps in Group Queue happen for the same reason as in Solo Quickplay:
No coordination between the Lances.

Caused IMHO by:

• Matches to short, no time to get used to team mates or even care about them or turn the match back from being a stomp.
  
• Mechs not fitting for the Map (to slow, to hot, not enough range,...)
  
• No Re-Spawns: get ASAP out of the Match to respawn with an other Mech in an other Match.
  
• Death match game style: no focus point on the map for the whole team (except Domination), team splits up.

In Solo Quickplay you have 12 players, and any player is doing his thing.

• Almost no one is trying to act as Lance Leader and use VOIP or Lance Leader Menue to coordinate the Lance.

In Group Quickplay you have 6 to 2 groups, each group doing their own thing.

• Almost no Group leader is trying to communicate with the other groups for a common tactic.
  
• Almost no player of a bigger group takes Lance Leader position to coordinate "his Lance" with his group in the other Lance.

VOIP:

• If your group is smaller than 4 players parts of your lance is not in your Teamspeak / discord. If you use VOIP you talk not only to your lance mate, but to the other players in other lances too and confusing them.
  
• Bonus problem: you might get kicked out of your Lance so a group bigger than 5 players can have all their players in common lances.

Commander / Lance Leader:
No one makes Commander because you can't pilot a Mech while looking on the big battle grid.
Bonus Problem in Solo & Group:
PGIs MWO GUI did not give you information about your team mates loadout and speed, and you need that for a common tactic as Lance Leader or Commander.

Improve Communication to reduce stomp:

• VOIP Sub-Channel for Lances
  
• Assigning Lance Lead post via script, giving Rewards for succesfull Lance leading
  
• allowing Mech selection for the Map
  
• allowing limited respawns to make Matches longer and give the team a chance to turn a stomp
  
• Displaying Mech speed in Score Board

TLDR 1:

Coordination is part of the problem if you mix Solos & Groups, but instead of nerfing Groups improve tools & enviroment for coordination.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solo & Group match making ist a different problem.

In Solo the match maker has to consider:
- Players Tier
- Players Mech Tonnage

In Group the match maker has to consider:
- Group Size
He also should consider "group tier" based on the players tier, but can't be done because not enough groups are aviable to set up matches due problematic group sizes (10+2, 9+3, 6+2, 5+3).

In 12 vs 12 following Group Sizes:
can't be matched: 11
are problematic: 10 & 9

In 8 vs 8 it is:
can't be matched: 7
are problematic: 6 & 5

So what's the sense to allow group sizes bigger than 4 or 8 ?
If 5/6/7/9/10 groups are a problem for the match maker?
And groups of 2-4 / 5-8 work best in 8 vs 8 / 12 vs 12?

Pros of reducing group sizes to 4 or 8:
No illegal / problematic group sizes:

• faster matchmaking, regardless of 8 vs 8 or 12 vs 12

More Groups in Queue:

• Balancing by "Group Tier" possible
  
• with "Group Tier" Solo players can sent to Groups of their tier to fill up vacant slots

12 vs 12, 8 vs 8 and even 4 vs 4 Group play is all possible:

• Low number of groups in group queue: 4 vs 4, 8 vs 8, high number 12 vs 12
  
• Groups with higher tiers can be sent to 12 vs 12.

[Raptor007]

Thank you!! Maybe now I can get some of my friends back into MWO. They all got tired of the endless group queue wait, and even sync drops stopped working as my tier improved.

I understand the concerns about groups stomping solos, and appreciate running this as a test to collect data. But I really hope the data supports keeping the queues merged. Group play simply wasn't viable on its own, and I know several people who just want to play this game with their friends.

[MeanMachinE]

Played last night for 4 hours and I am still loving the change. Now it is possible to play quick play again with a buddy, which I have missed. Soloing worked just fine also. Did not see any 12-0 stomps as there usually was before in QP. At least compared to the situation before the queue change, the stomping has in my experience diminished. The tactics vary now more than before, which is really refreshing. I mostly play QP to level up my mechs. FP works best for groups or some competition matches and practices.

The only thing I am a bit worried is the new player learning curve to get into the game. If it can be avoided, tier 4-5 players might need some love at the beginning of their careers. Matchmaker should take care of this. Not sure if that is a real problem as many good players have alt accounts in the tier 4-5 range just to let steam off once in a while and stomp potatoes there. On the other hand, it is now also possible to introduce friends to the game easier by playing in the same group.

[Grumpy Old Man]

You know, I have actually been wondering about this. As I can only play on weekends, I have yet to try it out. But I am trying to be constructive, so here goes:

The goal is to get more players again. As significant amounts of players left due to varying changes (and not being able to play with friends is a biggie), so PGI is trying something to reduce obstacles, thereby causing potentially different issues. A lot of people are seeing problems and reporting them. People have mentioned the match maker as a problem, PSR, etc. If I understand correctly, right now there is essentially no match maker aside from the size of the groups affected and PSR does not matter. So once the group matching is done, the rest is filled with whatever solo's are available.

So why don't I play along and try to make some suggestions that could make this new world work. Any and all suggestions that require huge amounts of development resources can be quickly ignored... Maintenance mode...

So one suggestion that might be quick to be implemented is a check for Mech performance. A lot of concerns are about people derping about vs. people playing meta builds. Why don't we use the Solaris System to classify the strength of Mechs? Whichever Mech is picked for the group, the OPFOR get a mech within one deviation of the same class with the same Solaris classification. So a "Tier 2" Assault Mech on one side could be offset by a "Tier2" Heavy Mech, for example, or a "Tier 1" Heavy Mech but not a "Tier 2" Medium Mech, to not cause problems with weight differences.

The second part of the majority of concerns seems to be about player skills. Since the two Tier PSR differences seem be be out the window... Why doesn't PGI calculate the Match Score average of the past 12 months or so per weight class (Lights, Mediums, etc.) once per month, divides them into some some brackets and then crossreferences them with the Mech table. We have that information already. In theory they could do the calculation in Excel for all I care, they already have all this information on the webpage... Have the system pick whoever is closest in brackets within the weight performance and form up groups. This is not perfect, because if a Top 10 player is playing at the same time as the worst 23 players in the game, they will still get matched together. But in the spirit of a MVP, this might be something relatively easy to implement that at least eases the current problems...

What do you think?

[Ectar]

I see what happening now... players are dropping like flies because nothing happening in moths, now this to mitigate problem. This is essentially going downhill
RIP MWO

[Tarl Cabot]

Drenath, on 29 April 2020 - 10:28 PM, said:

Queue time is great but still getting very lopsided matches.

Seems to me like they need to stiffen up the tonnage restrictions. Maybe categorically lock out more than 1 heavy +1 assault per group.

Last night (US Central) my Alt (T2) only had one lopsided game which ended 12-2 (European server) and I could not tell if we had groups or not. All other 9 matches were decent matches 12-8 to 10-12 but what stood out were two matches had Cadets in them, and both could not really shoot nor control their mechs.

As for Russ tweeted that the MM values had not being removed.... (chuckles) This would not be the first time he was unaware of a specific change. Unless the Cadets were part of a group with a higher tier player in it, then the MM would have been working as expected. And if they were grouped up, the person they were grouped up with did not fess up. The Cadets were the last to die due to wandering the zone until they were the last mech then eventually working their way into the crosshairs of the surviving enemy.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 30 April 2020 - 03:32 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Little Pencils, on 29 April 2020 - 07:30 PM, said:

I know the players that want to seal-club with their pals are having a blast but it's leaving all the solo players and new players out to dry.

Most people at the top end of town (or in my Cult of Competitive)...

Are not having fun. The stomps are frequent. No one wants stomps... Least of all high skill players, it becomes tedious.

Maybe 1-2 games in every 10 is "competitive" and I use that term very loosely. The others are just whack-a-mole.

The loses don't enjoy it, the winners don't enjoy it.

Alreech, on 30 April 2020 - 12:53 AM, said:

Stomps in Group Queue happen for the same reason as in Solo Quickplay:
No coordination between the Lances.

No.

Stomps happen due to:

SKILL DISPARITY.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 April 2020 - 03:52 AM.

[East Indy]

Kamikaze Viking, on 28 April 2020 - 05:49 AM, said:

This is what my version would be:

Didn't realize this topic came back up! Nice. One change would be to not penalize losses as much -- it's an inaccurate holdover from single-player/magic bullet ELO. Good players get stuck on bad teams and when they hit a high matchscore despite losing, it's a big deal. Also, sometimes you "lose" 11-12 and matchscores between teams are otherwise comparable. No need to unduly penalize that.

So, on a loss, rating change is: [-] [=] [+] [+ & a half]

Edit: I just realized -- isn't current PSR strongly colored by Group Queue back in the day, when Beer League guys who couldn't hack CW would roll over mixed teams in 8- and 12-mans?

Edited by East Indy, 30 April 2020 - 04:19 AM.

[Maarve]

I welcome this change , over the years various times and again last week I have tried to get friends whom I play with to come and try MWO the group que has always been one of the major stumbling blocks .

Ive been back playing solo quick play que over the past few days on both my main and 1 week old newb account . getting matches has been very quick and I haven't noticed them becoming anymore stompy , palying solo your always going to eat it on occasion .

[spannerturner]

I started noticing being paired up with Cadets about 6 months ago. So, either the online, at that moment, player numbers were so low that MM had no choice but to make those pairings, or the +/-2 Tier parameter has been turned off for awhile. Not saying it happens often, but I do see it at least once a week or so.

As far as this test goes, I do think they need to re-instate that parameter. Starting out in this game has always had a very steep learning curve. Now, you run the risk of turning off new players that are dying before the fight has really even started. If you are trying to get more players (ie new players) then you need to provide them with the opportunity to enjoy their first experiences in the game. Otherwise they won't stay. Remember, MWO is Free-2-Play, so there is no monetary investment at the beginning to help keep them hooked.

As far as wait times, here in EST North America, I've seen no real difference based on server usage % and speed numbers provided by PGI in the Regional Server drop down. I usually will wait until the bar is green before I join MM, which usually takes less than 5 seconds to change from red/yellow to green.

The best side effect I have seen with this change/test period? Possibly the end of the Nascar. That, and the play dynamics that Nascar forces, has already changed play IMHO and observations. This may allow for less speedy, more tanky builds since speed will no longer be priority #1 when building out your mechs.

[Suntech]

Advantage:
Quicker find a match
Opportunity for new, pugs, soloplayer, quickplayer to get touched in Fraction game
Balance that not a unit strong organised to make one sided game
At moment there are rarely a unit who plays with all 12 members the last 2 years i can see
Strong player should not complain bcos he can farm all the new players if he wants XD, thats for his EGO
Mechs loadouts are mixed more

Disadvantage:
For the strong one sided unit or grouped with strong players can not easily play one sided, bcos matchmaking is then accidentally now
Big friendsgroup can not get into fight together
No consequently coordinated fight all together with for example light rush, anhi, or bsp dakka rush.

PS: Bring the leaderboard in Fraction Game on work and fix it please. Thats important. Reset the leaderboard anything but bring it on works. Like in all other Sports there are Ranking. So bring Ranking in Fraction Game back.

[RickySpanish]

justcallme A S H, on 30 April 2020 - 03:52 AM, said:

Most people at the top end of town (or in my Cult of Competitive)...

Are not having fun. The stomps are frequent. No one wants stomps... Least of all high skill players, it becomes tedious.

Maybe 1-2 games in every 10 is "competitive" and I use that term very loosely. The others are just whack-a-mole.

The loses don't enjoy it, the winners don't enjoy it.



No.

Stomps happen due to:

SKILL DISPARITY.

So here is a thought - the Good Players don't enjoy stomps in the new SQ/GQ merger, so why play it? I call BS on that. Maybe you guys think you don't enjoy it, but something's making you play, eh? And of course, regular solo queue was absolutely the pinnacle of competitive play beforehand, right? So the only thing I can think of that you are missing is the old segregated group queue which correct me if I'm wrong, was rather dead already.

[-Tenshi-]

If earlier the games in QP only annoyed me with endless nascar and randomly running allies, now it feels like a completely different game, people finally started trying to play as a team, which is very pleasing.


I am sincerely sorry for the nascar-potatoes whose invincible strategy has collapsed and now they are running to the forum to write that solo quick play will now die. A couple of tips for casuals and nascar-bots: review your builds, always take AMS if you can, always take consumables, do not run far ahead alone, do not leave your assaults much behind, coordinate your actions with the team, find a unit or create your own.


Dear devs, you still have to work on the balance of the selection of players for matchmaking and group tonnage restrictions. But in general, you guys did an excellent job, greatly transforming the game for the better way, I am very grateful for this.

Edited by -Tenshi-, 30 April 2020 - 07:12 AM.

[kapusta11]

Mechdad groups shouldn't count as groups at all, if anything, that's 4 1/12 chances to have someone who can pull their weight wasted. Alternatively if there's a lance of .5%ers the other 8 players should be picked from the buttom 20% unless there's a group of equal strength on the other team.

Weight restrictions are also kinda meaningless. A lance of LRM Atlases is worse than a lance of Vaping eagles or a pack of Wolfhouds. Let people play whatever the hell they want, they are more likely to not play at all if you don't.

[Nearly Dead]

Took yesterday off and tried some games this morning;

12-3 Silent
6-12 Called
2-12 Silent
11-8 Silent
6-12 Silent
12-5 Silent
2-12 Silent
3-12 Silent
8-12 Called
3-12 Silent

Only two games had any voice communications in the game. If there was outside comms obviously I would not have been aware of it.

It was a small sample but I did not encounter any of the outright hostility from either group players or solo players that I saw yesterday. It felt more like normal QP games except for a few which seemed faster and harder hitting, premade teams don't piddle around sniping and peeking much from what I have seen, which is what I am used to seeing early in a match.

I suspect that the overall experience is a decline, but that group and solo players will experience it differently. Group, "We get to play, yay! So, some of the games are a little one sided, we get to play!" Solo. "This sucks. 80% stomps, no teamwork except for a few people, why did I come here again?"

I think the end result will be the end of solo QP. Some people might join groups to keep playing and for true casual solo players it might not matter, but I think the majority of solo players will be forced to leave or group up.

And since group queue was too small to survive on its own before . . .

[Spare Knight]

We all know that win/loss is roughly 50/50 due to the match maker. Why on earth would "Luck of the Draw" be a factor in Player Skill Rating? To make it more accurate, just use an Average Last 100 Match Score. Your skill rating would fluctuate a bit if you are doing Events, or skilling out a new mech, but would only be temporary and would put players into matches with others of their skill level.

[Grumpy Old Man]

I am just surprised at the amount of posts that think new players that are clearly outmatched by everybody else will double down and work to get their gameplay up. I think it is much more likely that they will just quit.

[Brauer]

Spare Knight, on 30 April 2020 - 06:53 AM, said:

We all know that win/loss is roughly 50/50 due to the match maker. Why on earth would "Luck of the Draw" be a factor in Player Skill Rating? To make it more accurate, just use an Average Last 100 Match Score. Your skill rating would fluctuate a bit if you are doing Events, or skilling out a new mech, but would only be temporary and would put players into matches with others of their skill level.

Win loss is clearly not stuck at 1.00 for everyone. If you look up some player stats you'll see that a number of players have sub 1.00 WLR and many have a WLR of over 2.00. These ranges are just going to expand further under this new system as good players who drop with other good players will able to achieve win rates upward of 90%.

[Spare Knight]

Brauer, on 30 April 2020 - 06:58 AM, said:

Win loss is clearly not stuck at 1.00 for everyone. If you look up some player stats you'll see that a number of players have sub 1.00 WLR and many have a WLR of over 2.00. These ranges are just going to expand further under this new system as good players who drop with other good players will able to achieve win rates upward of 90%.

I am a solo only player, so that doesn't help me. I would have to say that I am probably T4 or at best T3, but I am set as T2 and will soon hit T1. I sure don't have the skills to belong there. Even if I have a bad performance, if the team wins, I still get an =.