344 replies to this topic

[Spare Knight]

They might as well just shut down Faction Play now, since all the Faction Play units are grouping in Quick Play.

Stick a fork in it. It's done.

[Anomalocaris]

Spare Knight, on 06 May 2020 - 04:39 PM, said:

So, what we have is what we get. It won't get any better.

It doesn't sound good, but the seal clubbers can club till the servers shut down. After the experience of last night, I'm calling it quits. I can find something better to do with my time. I just wish I had not spent so much money on something that was exhaling its last breath. It's like buying a used car to find out that the owner never changed the oil.

I'm not going to say anything specific since goodbye posts are verboten. But I'm pretty sure my declaration at the beginning of this is going to be what ends up happening.

The thing is, right now, despite juicing the player numbers with extra reward content (non-stop contests) during the "experiment", there is minimal player growth. In fact while were on a solid trend of month to month growth due to the Covid effect, this month might not see the same growth we saw the past 2. And once a certain number of people get tired of the new normal, player numbers will drop further. But even if they stayed flat for 6 months, or went up a bit, PGI keeps burning what little customer loyalty they have with their bullheaded insistence that they know best (but will never share the data) combined with lying to the playerbase instead of just coming out and saying "we're doing this because we want to, take it or leave it". At least then they'd be honest. I could respect that even if I didn't like it.

[spannerturner]

Swamp *** MkII, on 06 May 2020 - 11:34 AM, said:

For those counting players through steam, and PGI launcher, I have to say, I am +1. Reason, I launch mechwarrior in offline mode through steam. Why, well, I play using a mobile hotspt and needless to say, steam is annoying at times!

On my gaming computer, I switched over to the PGI Launcher a couple years ago after Steam had seriously botched a Patch that took 2 days to fix. On my gaming laptop (I travel a lot for work), I switched over recently because Steam had botched its own client patch that screwed up all of my Steam ported games. I just won't use the Steam port anymore, to many issues...

[spannerturner]

Anomalocaris, on 06 May 2020 - 03:55 PM, said:

Latest quote from Russ on Twitter:

My takeaway? This was never an experiment that was going to be reverted if it didn't work. The signs were there earlier and this is a confirmation. So, once again, PGI execs lied their butts off to the population. If you truly believed that the population wouldn't support both queues and group was already dead with the exception of the 8v8 spike, you shoulda just dumped it Russ. Like Scouting for example.....


So much hate right now.

I hate to say it, but...

For everyone that was around for the MW5/Epic exclusivity fiasco, this really comes as no surprise and, IMHO, is kinda expected now. It's like asking your 4 year old, who broke the lamp...?

[Negat1ve Nancy]

DAEDALOS513, on 06 May 2020 - 08:48 AM, said:

You don't want it bad enough then.. you're destined for mediocrity.. up to you to change it..

So this game is not for mediocre players?

That is a lot of players that the game can not afford to lose.

Sigh

[Knight Captain Morgan]

Negat1ve Nancy, on 06 May 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

So this game is not for mediocre players?

That is a lot of players that the game can not afford to lose.

Sigh

Bah! Let them GO! Only when they are gone and the que times return to what old group/faction play que times were will the "farmers" understand that they... must find a new scapegoat to blame all their troubles on cause they damn sure won't be blaming themselves for anything...

[Kamikaze Viking]

I would like a proper reply from Russ or Paul to Tarogato's honest question of

'How are you measuring match quality?'

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 06 May 2020 - 06:42 PM.

[Mr Pataks]

I've started playing again since it is now possible to get a game in oceanic timeslot.

Dropped by myself, dropped with a few mates. I found all the games to be fairly close, not one roflstomp.

I think everybody was having a good time, and at the end of the day an occasional uneven match is better that waiting for hours a game any day.

I think the changes are enough no need for 8v8 in quick play queue. Don't separate group and solo q. Those solo's even out the matches and let everyone get a game. Should have been done 2 years ago.

[Grumpy Old Man]

DAEDALOS513, on 06 May 2020 - 08:48 AM, said:

You don't want it bad enough then.. you're destined for mediocrity.. up to you to change it..

I am just curious, is that motto for everything in your life? There is nothing where you will just go "Meh, good enough"? You want to be the best in everything you do? Work? Sports? Raising your kids? Gardening? Cooking? There is nothing out there that you prioritise higher than other tasks? And any tasks where you do not belong to the top 1% worldwide, that just means you did not want it enough? That sounds positively exhausting to me to live like that.

[Horseman]

DAEDALOS513, on 06 May 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

I was just pointing out the difference between myself when I was new to the game, and him.. I craved a challenge, wanted to run with the big boys.. he avoids it.. hence destined for mediocrity.. not being dismissive.. just honest..

Some people would view this as generous for pointing it out, opening his eyes.. others as abrupt or rude.. take it as you wish..

You weren't just dismissive, you were making assumptions about me. You know how the saying goes.

Point one - I wasn't talking about myself. The game has a **** ton of bad to mediocre players.

Point two - some of them might improve and I do agree with you that they should. But you don't get people to improve by pancaking their faces into the skill curve. That leads only to frustration and losing players.

Point three - PGI is at a point where they literally can't afford to lose more of the playerbase. It's their own damn fault, yes, but losing more players is not in the game's interest - and therefore not in our own, if we want to actually play pew-pew with giant robots for longer than just the next six months.

Point four - I do agree with you that players should be matched with better ones so they just might have someone to learn from. What I don't agree with is your expectation that a bottom-rank player will be able to do that from a 98-percenter. The gap is too large - they are missing much of the basic knowledge and abilities that more advanced players take for granted because they've assimilated them long ago. And when the gap is too large, everyone gets pissed off - the high rankers because they've been teamed with irredeemable potatoes, the bottom rankers because they get frustrated at being left in the dirt by their team.

Edited by Horseman, 06 May 2020 - 10:57 PM.

[MrMadguy]

My opinion - MMRs are obsoleted. MMR changes way too slowly and is way too unreliable. You change 'Mech - and your performance changes drastically. You change PPC/Gauss/ER-LL sniper into AC/SRM brawler and your "skill" drops by 50%, yeah. We need some sort of AI matchmaking. One, that would just perform several test matches and then just try to provide the most "fun" level of difficulty and adjust to results as fast, as possible. Even if it can't balance skill levels, at least it should try to balance teams better.

[Gagis]

MrMadguy, on 07 May 2020 - 12:21 AM, said:

My opinion - MMRs are obsoleted. MMR changes way too slowly and is way too unreliable. You change 'Mech - and your performance changes drastically. You change PPC/Gauss/ER-LL sniper into AC/SRM brawler and your "skill" drops by 50%, yeah. We need some sort of AI matchmaking. One, that would just perform several test matches and then just try to provide the most "fun" level of difficulty and adjust to results as fast, as possible. Even if it can't balance skill levels, at least it should try to balance teams better.

This is strictly untrue. The skill gaps in MWO are so wide and the average skill level of the remaining players so low that it really does not matter what style of mech you are in. The handicap of putting a specialist into an unskilled mech outside their comfort zone is not large enough for others to overtake them in performance.

Al Elo rating, like we had before, would work just fine.

[DAEDALOS513]

Horseman, on 06 May 2020 - 10:41 PM, said:

You weren't just dismissive, you were making assumptions about me. You know how the saying goes.

Point one - I wasn't talking about myself. The game has a **** ton of bad to mediocre players.

Point two - some of them might improve and I do agree with you that they should. But you don't get people to improve by pancaking their faces into the skill curve. That leads only to frustration and losing players.

Point three - PGI is at a point where they literally can't afford to lose more of the playerbase. It's their own damn fault, yes, but losing more players is not in the game's interest - and therefore not in our own, if we want to actually play pew-pew with giant robots for longer than just the next six months.

Point four - I do agree with you that players should be matched with better ones so they just might have someone to learn from. What I don't agree with is your expectation that a bottom-rank player will be able to do that from a 98-percenter. The gap is too large - they are missing much of the basic knowledge and abilities that more advanced players take for granted because they've assimilated them long ago. And when the gap is too large, everyone gets pissed off - the high rankers because they've been teamed with irredeemable potatoes, the bottom rankers because they get frustrated at being left in the dirt by their team.

Sorry, I kinda knew you were experienced to the game but I wanted to make a point and show you how silly it is to try to speak for others.. they can speak their own minds.. and guess what: many have saying this has been a huge improvement to the game.. yet you (and a few others) continue to speak for them saying they are wrong? Trust me, more disgruntled players than happy ones will come on the forums and vent their frustrations.. but even still, it seems the latter outweighs the former. You guys gotta get over it. Considering what PGI has to work with, they couldn't have made a better change. We can only hope they continue to tweak it in baby steps (like maybe max out group size at 3 but NOT touch the tonnage restrictions then).

I know this game can't lose more players but this change has increased population.. you want new players to play our game? Step one: make it so you can play with friends. PGI got it right when they made it possible to drop with a friend or two. Now they have to figure out step two..

There are enough new players to battle each other that many matches are exciting and fun, I rarely run into a 3 or 4man of good players. Besides, let's be realistic.. new players shouldn't expect to be 'good' or win many matches in the beginning; it's part of the learning curve for any game.. and if a new player doesn't understand this they will never get over mwo's steeper learning curve to begin with..

I would understand if you had complaints from your own point of view like the games are now more boring or too easy, but the players you keep advocating for, for the most part are enjoying themselves.. they can now drop with their friends, do you want to deny them that pleasure? Something we veterans took for granted over the years?

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 07 May 2020 - 09:34 AM.

[Prince of Kyrgyzstan]

Bit background, I played from 2018 to 2019 and when I stopped playing in January, I had reached Tier 2 and I was according to Jarl's List at 90% of players. The main reason why I stopped playing back then, even thought I really like the game, was the lack of trust towards PGI to keep updating and keeping the game alive as it was rather clear that the game was going into maintenance mode without proper updates and how they have handled the game before that regarding balance and promises not kept.

So now with these changes I decided to jump in and test how well these changes have worked. I have now played for about three days and for somewhere around 20-30 games with mechs ranging from brawl to long range shooting. I always search for both European and US servers due to my good connection and I played on both prime European and US peak hours and during European morning and mid day. With this in mind I think I got a good comparison to what the game now is compared to 2019 January.

My findings is that European servers during mornings and mid day are closest to what MWO was over year ago. The groups are non-existing and the games follow more or less same style and rhythm of back in the day. Of course due to matchmaker not taking tonnage in account, the team weights can be all over the place. Meanwhile the US server has more groups and more active people using VOIP. The more organized play of US server is good for casuals as they can be herded to approximately right direction, but due to groups being in play, the matches are stomps most of the time. The one or two competitive matches on US servers which I played had a good group on either side which evened the playing field a lot, but even then those competitive matches saw us casual dying before the groups did. If the match had a group on both sides and either side lost those players, that side lost the match.

The four player groups have too big of an effect in the SoloQ right now. They can coordinate their own fight better due to using 3rd party software for talking (I don't blame them, I would do the same if I was in a group). The groups also know how to concentrate their fire really well, which means that if you make one mistake in maneuvering, you either lose a sidetorso or are cored immediately. What I have seen that if map supports long range firing, the groups tend to bring a lot of gauss, PPC or LRMs. The so called Turret Warrior Online is apt description for this. Add a mech with ECM and night map, it can be really hard to spot those players.

While I see the small benefit of allowing you to play with your friends finally on SoloQ, the negatives this change in this form outweighs the meager benefits a lot. While the search times for matches are rather fast, I don't know if that outweighs the fact that you can quickly see in the lobby who is going to win the match by looking at the potential groups and familiar player names. The matches are foreknown conclusions.

The information Paul and Russ has provided us neither does give me much more trust towards their ability to pull this to right direction. Stomps have grown 5% from what? And more competitive matches, it seems we have different definition of competitive.

In the end I don't know if I continue playing and testing this update as while I like BattleTech and this game a lot, I don't know if that and the gameplay is enough to keep me playing compared to the poor matchmaking and inclusion of groups that dominate the games that are trying to keep me away.

TL:DR same concerns as people before me has pointed out regarding groups in SoloQ and the lack of proper matchmaking making most matches one-sided affairs.

[MrMadguy]

Gagis, on 07 May 2020 - 06:31 AM, said:

This is strictly untrue. The skill gaps in MWO are so wide and the average skill level of the remaining players so low that it really does not matter what style of mech you are in. The handicap of putting a specialist into an unskilled mech outside their comfort zone is not large enough for others to overtake them in performance.

Al Elo rating, like we had before, would work just fine.

For me there is big difference between, let's say, generic Atlas and ECM+TAG+ATM+Gauss+ER-ML Blood Asp. Atlas is just a piece of junk. Walking target dummy.

[Horseman]

DAEDALOS513, on 07 May 2020 - 07:20 AM, said:

I kinda knew you were experienced to the game but I wanted to show you how silly it is to try to speak for others.. they can speak their own minds.. and guess what: many have saying this has been a huge improvement to the game.. yet you (and a few others) continue to speak for them saying they are wrong?

A small number of players are relaying a subjective positive result, based on a statistically insignificant sample size (and I see just as many reporting subjective negative results based on same scope of experience - are you going to tell me that they cannot be right?).
Subjectively they may very well be right - for them, in the matches they've played the outcome was positive.
Objectively, stomps have increased in frequency as predicted, matchmaking got screwed up worse than predicted, leading to more lopsided (and less enjoyable) matches, and PGI isn't helping given that Paul's recent thread reveals they're trying to matchmake using a metric that has long been rendered useless due to the built-in upwards bias (PSR).

Quote

Besides, if I'm a new player to a game, I don't expect to be good or win many matches;

If you're a new player, you don't expect to be thrown straight into the woodchipper either. They need to be matched within a skill gap large enough that they stand to learn something from, but small enough that they can make that leap and do not get the impression it's insurmountable.

Quote

I would understand if you had complaints from your own point of view like the games are now more boring or too easy,

The games are more lopsided which, yes, does lead to them being more boring

Edited by Horseman, 07 May 2020 - 09:32 AM.

[General Solo]

Reminds of CW, which I quit because it was boring, too easy smacking seals.

I knew then with FW that skillgap was going to kill the queue eventually which was what happened, same with group queue.

I just see history repeating it self, except this time we don't have the numbers of new incoming players to mask the effect, which imo is why FW and Group queues lasted as long as they did.

New incoming players hid the fact that quietly people were leaving, dissatisfied. Wanna buy a mech pack.

Forum didn't help, "get Guid , we dont need no working match maker , we love clubbing you guys and playing groups we can beat.

But this is worse for the new player experience, much worse.

On a personal note, my K/D and W/L are better than usual.
Clubbing bad groups and soloes gets boring.

Much rather fight equals determined by a working match maker that was properly designed and not comprised and doomed to failure because "Management had an Idea" and configured it as an experience bar.

IMO Matcher is good just configured badly. Upward bias.
For many a bad experience.

I'm guessing its a bad experience for new players too now. smh

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 07 May 2020 - 09:50 AM.

[Thorqemada]

DAEDALOS513, on 07 May 2020 - 07:20 AM, said:

Sorry, I kinda knew you were experienced to the game but I wanted to make a point and show you how silly it is to try to speak for others.. they can speak their own minds.. and guess what: many have saying this has been a huge improvement to the game.. yet you (and a few others) continue to speak for them saying they are wrong? Trust me, more disgruntled players than happy ones will come on the forums and vent their frustrations.. but even still, it seems the latter outweighs the former.

I dont think that it at this Point of the games Lifetime is anymore true, they will simply leave without comment.
I had the feeling there was a disorganized micro campaign on a voluntary per individual base to cheer for the changes.
It does not seem the numbers have soared significantly so there is only an exchange of players from players who still played the game, maybe were even new to the game, to coming back players that had already stopped playing the game - guess who may stick longer!?

[DAEDALOS513]

Thorqemada, on 07 May 2020 - 09:46 AM, said:

I dont think that it at this Point of the games Lifetime is anymore true, they will simply leave without comment.
I had the feeling there was a disorganized micro campaign on a voluntary per individual base to cheer for the changes.
It does not seem the numbers have soared significantly so there is only an exchange of players from players who still played the game, maybe were even new to the game, to coming back players that had already stopped playing the game - guess who may stick longer!?

If you read through this thread you'll see there are many who not only reinstalled but also got their friends to start playing again.. and this hasn't happened for MWO in I can't remember how long .. if ever.

Honestly the matches can't get much more casual.. and if the casual you advocators are looking for means having your team wonder around a map aimlessly then that will drive more players away than what we have now.. or wait, maybe by casual you mean the insane nascar matches that solo'ers experienced in most matches (making assaults or any slow mech obsolete) prior to soup queue.. is that what you guys mean by bring back casual? Because that definitely will keep players playing, lol. You guys really need to take a step back from the table, count your cards and understand that although not perfect, what we have now is a NET POSITIVE for the game.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 07 May 2020 - 10:38 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

OZHomerOZ, on 07 May 2020 - 09:43 AM, said:

Reminds of CW, which I quit because it was boring, too easy smacking seals.

I knew then with FW that skillgap was going to kill the queue eventually which was what happened, same with group queue.

I just see history repeating it self, except this time we don't have the numbers of new incoming players to mask the effect, which imo is why FW and Group queues lasted as long as they did.

New incoming players hid the fact that quietly people were leaving, dissatisfied. Wanna buy a mech pack.

Forum didn't help, "get Guid , we dont need no working match maker , we love clubbing you guys and playing groups we can beat.

But this is worse for the new player experience, much worse.

On a personal note, my K/D and W/L are better than usual.
Clubbing bad groups and soloes gets boring.

Much rather fight equals determined by a working match maker that was properly designed and not comprised and doomed to failure because "Management had an Idea" and configured it as an experience bar.

IMO Matcher is good just configured badly. Upward bias.
For many a bad experience.

I'm guessing its a bad experience for new players too now. smh

I agree with you matches have gotten a bit boring for the upper tier players..but to alleviate this i drop in fun, non-meta.. to do this ofcourse you have to put your ego aside and brush off a loss or two..

Don't speak for others, it means little and is getting old.. they have their own voice..

PS. look at the steam charts for MWO and click on 3 month view..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 07 May 2020 - 10:36 AM.