849 replies to this topic

[YouKnowNothing]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 28 May 2020 - 02:28 AM, said:

People are spreading rumors (I won't raise from the ASHes any names) that cadets are getting matched against T1 players. Because of course the den of ego and idiocy that is Outreach HPG would be spreading that.

https://imgur.com/YQ4ht16

Me and another teammate, group of 2, both T1, matched vs a cadet, 3 days or so ago.

[Brauer]

DevinMace, on 29 May 2020 - 03:47 AM, said:

Cadets will get matched with everyone and everyone with everyone else for one obvious reason.. there is only so many people playing the game. The matchmaker is not going to sit with 9 people in queue from her 1 for 20 minutes if there are people available to play. If a cadet goes into a game and gets crushed and quits, well they wouldn't of lasted anyway.

Yes it does happen but it doesn't always happen these are just the realities.

Prior to the queue merge I had not seen a cadet in one of my quick play matches in ages. When playing quick play at this point I see them with some frequency as well as players who tell me they are in tier 4 or 5. The playerbase has not declined so much that cadets must be placed into matches that include tier 1 players, or that T4 and 5 need to be matched with T1. This is purely a byproduct of this unbaked queue merge.

This queue merge has made matchmaking far worse (and it wasn't terribly good before), in part because the matchmaker basically just throws groups into matches without any sense of creating balanced sides.

[AnassRhammar]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 29 May 2020 - 02:49 AM, said:

were you in a group?

No.

[Gerdau]

If you want to make it zero sum, please be mindful NOT to punish players that perform well. It's very frustrating to lose PSR just because you had the bad luck of being placed in a bad team. INSTEAD, players who performed very badly in a match that was won by the team should lose PSR. There should always be a measure of merit for INDIVIDUAL performance!

And yes, reset the tiers - but please make them more imaginative, give them names! For example:

Tier 1 - "Legendary Mechwarrior"
Tier 2 - "Elite Mechwarrior"
Tier 3 - "Veteran Mechwarrior"
Tier 4 - "Mechwarrior"
Tier 5 - "Cadet"

Vanity is very important to motivate players in competitive games!

[5p4rky117]

late for the party.
personally I not sure to reset, or not to reset.
but IF reset happen, won't the same old situation return back, after some time passed?
IF not, any alternate way to fix it?

Edited by 5p4rky117, 29 May 2020 - 06:38 AM.

[Brauer]

5p4rky117, on 29 May 2020 - 06:31 AM, said:

late for the party.
personally I not sure to reset, or not to reset.
but IF reset happen, won't the same old situation return back, after some time passed?
IF not, any alternate way to fix it?

The idea is to reset PSR and make it zero sum so that it doesn't just function as an exp bar and allow low-performing players to grind to Tier 1 by completing enough matches.

If only tier is reset it will help for a time, but eventually the problem will re-emerge (assuming the servers are still on).
If only PSR is adjusted to be zero sum it will take far longer for players to migrate to the correct tier.

So ultimately, as you imply, doing both at the same time is best.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

YouKnowNothing, on 29 May 2020 - 05:39 AM, said:

https://imgur.com/YQ4ht16

Me and another teammate, group of 2, both T1, matched vs a cadet, 3 days or so ago.

Again, the Cadet in question is likely to be in a group, since your side has two groups of 2

[DaniBot]

Correcting the formula and resetting the player rating sounds good to me.
Now that you have admitted that it has flaws it is mandatory to fix it.

[Nearly Dead]

I wish they would just leave the Tier ratings alone and use another measurement for the matchmaker, something not published. No reason to piss people off who care about their time in game and tier ranking, but they have got to get the top teams playing against each other, and away from the run of the mill players.

[AzureRathalos]

Due to other commitments, I haven't played the game in months. Due to lack of practice and outdated knowledge on updates and meta, I should have no business being in Tier 1 at this moment.

A reset would be appreciated and, if possible, automated PSR resets on accounts that haven't logged in for a long while would be nice too.

[East Indy]

So, in workweek bustle I skimmed what Paul originally wrote and assumed the "formula" would be something like Trevelyas' 5-year-old suggestion to score players in context with each other's performance each match, then apply that over time to the entire population.

Now I'm wondering if Paul will literally remove PSR increases for anyone on a losing team, and call it "zero sum."

I mean, yes, you can correlate player skill to W/L rate given enough players and enough time.

But there's a better metric to measure player skill, and that's: player skill. I don't know where this notion that high matchscores can be rigged or "scummed" by certain playstyles indefinitely, because data shows that it's impossible. Players level off at an average of 250 per match, way too low for consistently high-scoring games with low-skill-floor playstyles. Any loophole players are statistically insignificant. In other words, players who try to fake it end up playing with players they can no longer fake it against. But see, if they happen to be on the winning side and play every single day...

Unless low-matchscore winners are also penalized, it seems wishful thinking that PSR and tiers will end up much differently from the XP bar.

I don't know if it's unchecked belief in Dave Sirlin or whatever, but W/L is not a magical end-all-be-all stat. If it were, the Reds wouldn't have paid $64 million to Nick Castellanos, because they'd just check the Tigers' W/L and assume he can't be good if his team loses all the time.

[OneTeamPlayer]

A lot of people are starting to get a little nervous thinking about how they might have to actually use voice comms, drop call, and coordinate with their team if PSR is based on W/L alone.

Edited by OneTeamPlayer, 29 May 2020 - 11:22 AM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 29 May 2020 - 03:37 AM, said:

I don't think you care about "new players". I think you care about new worshipers. It's sad.

Matchmaking simply IS bad right now. But stooping to lying about it? WTF? WHY?

Just 'cause you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. If you go to the beach with an empty glass cup, fill it with sea water, your chances of finding a whale in it are 0%.

[Kilowatt Girl]

My first post if it works. Thanks for the game. Now it works a lot better with my fiber optic cable than Mw3 did over my rural telephone line. I have been in the max of tier one for quite a while. I still have considerable to learn about being a good team player but being in tier 1 has helped me with that. Thanks for that too. When I do something dumb for the 10,000th time I watch my mates around the world planning, positioning and good shots while I just finished spraying all over the place landing in a bad spot to meet my early death on to spectator view anxious to see that I didn't damage my mates with that last stupid move. When the bar first entered tier 1 on my screen I started trying to do better for the first time in years to spite lack of skill. My problem is that I played Mw3 on to now because I like to build mechs and try em out. That is it for my interest. I have built a lot of mechs. I can just build them all day. I do more of that offline now. Lately I found myself building 3 and 4 AMS supports and sticking right in the middle of the highest density of my mates on my mini map and trying but failing to wait until the time is right and learning. When I get disappointed with my very low damage scores I switch to my medium mech that can go off by itself and at the very least take you with me if there aren't more than two no matter what tier your in. Even here I try to stay with the assaults in density but usually never end there. I have a lot to learn. This is just how the game is for me. Mates were often rude to me in the lower tiers but since I got in tier 1, these players have manners and are fun. I love a match with chaotic harmony or whatever he is. I don't care what tier I am in but I know I will miss the nice players having fun in any tier. Thank you. Where do we go from here? I might have the most double heat sinks and hope to see you there.

[Skudski]

Paul Inouye, on 25 May 2020 - 03:41 PM, said:

We need your feedback on whether this is acceptable or not (losing current Tier standings).

I say great, go for it. I would love to go again and climb the rankings, its been so long since I've been just bouncing against the end of tier 1 - starting afresh would be amazing! What I would say though, is don't make the initial assessment too quick, you don't want a skewed result - i.e. a tier 1 player purposefully playing badly for 20 games just so he can thrash everyone for the next year as he climbs through the ranks. Suggestion: Make it an unknown number between 50 and 100 games.

Also, as many on here say - base it more on personal performance than just winning or losing. Whether you win or lose the match should just be a small factor, and instead use factors that may help the team win - whether they win or not - i.e capping, doing damage as well as receiving damage (so snipers aren't rewarded, but bravery is) etc

[Kray76]

You have to Reset the Tier Rating. Actually, the Rating means NOTHING. You can die upward to Tier 1, you can chose a mech and a loadout for testing, an you are worse, even if you are a top player, because you are testing some funny ****.

There must be an other way for rating how good a player is in the current match.
This must be include some crtierias as how good the player is, global states, and how good he is in his current mech with the current loadout.
Thats the only way, how you can compare the players. Everthing else, is some oracle thing.. like you can drop some chiken bones.

Think about it. Reset everything, chose a new way for the machmake and let it go.

[The Jewce Iz Loose]

Do it

[Collin Roseblade]

Long time lurker and player, first time poster, here...

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with what East Indy said above.

I don't think removing the ability to gain SR in a losing match will do anything but leave your PSR at the mercy of your teammates. Adding a penalty to SR if you perform poorly in a winning match, however, moves it closer to a "Zero sum" balance, and actually makes your SR based on your own performance. Sure, teamwork and communication are critical skills to develop, and W/L should have SOME impact on your PSR, but your own performance should be a major determining factor.

I have personally lost matches after getting 3-4 solo kills because my teammates weren't playing well, and I will admit to winning some matches where I was off my game and died like an idiot two minutes into the match. I don't think my PSR should be penalized in the former scenario, while I should lose SR in the latter even if my team wins.

I have been wanting combined queues for years, and I fully support a rebuild and reset of the Skill Tier system. But PLAYER skill rating should be based primarily on the PLAYER'S skill, not the whole team's skill.

[Mr Andersson]

+1 to zero sum ranking

Edited by Mr Andersson, 29 May 2020 - 01:06 PM.

[Horseman]

East Indy, on 29 May 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

Now I'm wondering if Paul will literally remove PSR increases for anyone on a losing team, and call it "zero sum."

That is my concern too. His initial post indicates a belief that the problem is that it's too easy to gain PSR on a loss, whereas the actual problem is that it's too easy to gain PSR on a win regardless of performance.

Quote

I don't know where this notion that high matchscores can be rigged or "scummed" by certain playstyles indefinitely, because data shows that it's impossible. Players level off at an average of 250 per match, way too low for consistently high-scoring games with low-skill-floor playstyles. Any loophole players are statistically insignificant. In other words, players who try to fake it end up playing with players they can no longer fake it against. But see, if they happen to be on the winning side and play every single day...

Counterproof:

https://leaderboard....=Horseman%20IIC
You can see the spike in March. That was grinding score for Lucky Charms with a pair of AMS Novas.

https://leaderboard....arch?u=Horseman
Here you have to go way back to February... of 2017 . That was when I discovered the silly little mech known as Awesome AWS-8R with (what at the time was) up to 47% cooldown for LRM-15s.

The bottom line is: Match score can be gamed to an extent. It won't push one of our 38% "Tier 1"'s into the 98% range they believe they rightfully deserve and it cannot be "gamed" by role-playing a REMF.

Quote

Unless low-matchscore winners are also penalized, it seems wishful thinking that PSR and tiers will end up much differently from the XP bar.

Agreed 100%.