379 replies to this topic

[50 50]

Biomechtric, on 14 July 2020 - 04:37 PM, said:

There is no 'Leveling up' involved in the PSR system, why are so many finding this hard to understand? If you are of a high skill level you are a high tier, if you are of a low skill level you will be low tier & if you are somewhere in the middle you are(surprise) mid tier.
This is to allow the matchmaker to place people in matches against others of around the same skill. If you play well your PSR will increase, if not it will decrease.
The only 'leveling up' I can think of is skill points on your mechs & if the new PSR system works as intended(this will take some time for enough matches to be played to place players into the tiers they are suited to) it will be easier as you will be against people that are around your own skill level.
The old system was broken as it allowed low skill players who played lots of matches into the upper tiers(even with low match scores) & hence placed them into matches against the very top players in the game. As they were all in Tier 1 the matchmaker could not tell them apart. This was bad for both parties as the match quality was terrible.

Believe he is referring to the levelling of the mechs themselves and obtaining skill points.

[General Solo]

Sawk, on 14 July 2020 - 02:49 PM, said:

........have no chance of leveling up

Hi

Just want to say the purpose of the PSR ranking is not to level you up like some kind of reward like leveling up some RPG character.

The sole purpose of the PSR ranking is to rate your skill against the player population so that games can be made for you where you team mates and opponents are of similar skill to you. *

(*Stompage have vary depending on match maker quality and population conditions, some stompage will persist due to the snowball nature of the game mode.)

In theory it sounds great, how and when its implemented can make for break it.
Like maybe implement and get MM right at the start of your games life cycle when you have a viable population, not at the end with a tiny population. Just saying PGI

Sawk, on 14 July 2020 - 02:49 PM, said:

.... some funky web site that say what rank you are, WOW,

Just want to say I find that funky website pretty accurate when rating a player against other players or myself most of the time.
It isn't perfect but its pretty good for that.

My old unit had quite a range of players in terms of skill and I found that me and that funky website were often in agreement.
Imo its a good tool.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 15 July 2020 - 03:20 AM.

[Fyrehawk]

Any and all people who completely disregard their Jarls rank are downright delusional. The old PSR system was nothing but an XP bar, and just cause you're high level, doesn't mean your're patently good at something, just means you sunk time into the grind. Everyone who comes here whining about 'I used to be tier 1, and now I'm not any more' may need to take into account that maybe, JUST MAYBE...tier 1 is meant fort the top 20% of the playerbase according to aggregated statistics that are trackable by PGI's own systems set in place. 9 out of 10 times I look up some entitled 'ex tier 1' pilot's stats, they are nowhere near the average performance numbers that would legitimately qualify them as a 'tier 1' pilot.
So maybe before you come to the forums whining about a 'broken system' take some time to look in the mirror, or maybe even at proven statistics and stop for a moment to realize that maybe, just maybe the system isn't broken at that you're just not as good as you think you are. For Pete's sake the entitled whining is just getting obnoxious.
And before anybody comes out and says 'Oh you're talking down on us' or something about 'you're just bragging about how good you are' keep in mind that a lot of us who defend the system and helped put it together ACTUALLY know what we're talking about as we have experience with competitive games that have very skilled player bases. Your 7 years of game time mean nothing to this system if you're not good enough to perform to the standards that allow you to climb the ranks, and your total time in the game should have no account on your PSR rank. That should be solely determined by your individual skill in the game, and anyone who says otherwise is just sounding like an entitled child.

Edited by Fyrehawk, 15 July 2020 - 04:33 AM.

[Biomechtric]

Fyrehawk, on 15 July 2020 - 04:26 AM, said:

Any and all people who completely disregard their Jarls rank are downright delusional. The old PSR system was nothing but an XP bar, and just cause you're high level, doesn't mean your're patently good at something, just means you sunk time into the grind. Everyone who comes here whining about 'I used to be tier 1, and now I'm not any more' may need to take into account that maybe, JUST MAYBE...tier 1 is meant fort the top 20% of the playerbase according to aggregated statistics that are trackable by PGI's own systems set in place. 9 out of 10 times I look up some entitled 'ex tier 1' pilot's stats, they are nowhere near the average performance numbers that would legitimately qualify them as a 'tier 1' pilot.
So maybe before you come to the forums whining about a 'broken system' take some time to look in the mirror, or maybe even at proven statistics and stop for a moment to realize that maybe, just maybe the system isn't broken at that you're just not as good as you think you are. For Pete's sake the entitled whining is just getting obnoxious.
And before anybody comes out and says 'Oh you're talking down on us' or something about 'you're just bragging about how good you are' keep in mind that a lot of us who defend the system and helped put it together ACTUALLY know what we're talking about as we have experience with competitive games that have very skilled player bases. Your 7 years of game time mean nothing to this system if you're not good enough to perform to the standards that allow you to climb the ranks, and your total time in the game should have no account on your PSR rank. That should be solely determined by your individual skill in the game, and anyone who says otherwise is just sounding like an entitled child.

I would just like to add to your(spot on) post that the changes are being implemented to help the lower skill level players more so than the top players, something else that seems to be getting forgotten about.
For me, personally, I'm kinda 'up there'(trying not to brag in any way) when it comes to skill level in MWO & in all honesty, it is of more benefit to me to have matches against low tier players as we had before as it made it very easy to earn XP on new mechs & also the cbills were rolling in fast but(& it's HUGE!), the match quality was poor, the population getting angry & I have no doubt I have demoralised some low skill players to the point of never playing again. I know it was easy going but it sucked & I would much rather play against people in my own skill bracket even with the in game 'financial' losses.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Fyrehawk, on 15 July 2020 - 04:26 AM, said:

Any and all people who completely disregard their Jarls rank are downright delusional.

I'm not sure about the old Jarl's list, but i'm pretty sure current Jarl's list currently includes stats from pre-formed groups dropping in solo queue which is to say they are essentially useless since the merge.

"Congratulations you can gain high stats by playing in unbalanced units against people outside your skill classification" 2Pro4Gaming.

We wouldn't care about NBA players against the group of guys playing on the local court, about college football players against the local two-hand touch league, nor the stats of groups versus random individuals.

Not only did the change ruin the experience for solo players, it made all of the stats charts that people love so much entirely meaningless- making it the worst of all worlds for multiple types of players.

[Brauer]

OneTeamPlayer, on 15 July 2020 - 07:07 AM, said:

I'm not sure about the old Jarl's list, but i'm pretty sure current Jarl's list currently includes stats from pre-formed groups dropping in solo queue which is to say they are essentially useless since the merge.

"Congratulations you can gain high stats by playing in unbalanced units against people outside your skill classification" 2Pro4Gaming.

We wouldn't care about NBA players against the group of guys playing on the local court, about college football players against the local two-hand touch league, nor the stats of groups versus random individuals.

Not only did the change ruin the experience for solo players, it made all of the stats charts that people love so much entirely meaningless- making it the worst of all worlds for multiple types of players.

Jarl's never was a tool for showing whether the 10th highest ranked player was better than the 11th highest ranked player. It was more for providing a general idea of a player's skill level and population level data. It still works fine for that. If I look up a player and they are ranked in the 20th percentile I can still be confident that they're a very bad player and much worse than a player in the 70th, 90th, or 99th percentiles.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

OneTeamPlayer, on 15 July 2020 - 07:07 AM, said:

I'm not sure about the old Jarl's list, but i'm pretty sure current Jarl's list currently includes stats from pre-formed groups dropping in solo queue which is to say they are essentially useless since the merge.

"Congratulations you can gain high stats by playing in unbalanced units against people outside your skill classification" 2Pro4Gaming.

We wouldn't care about NBA players against the group of guys playing on the local court, about college football players against the local two-hand touch league, nor the stats of groups versus random individuals.

Not only did the change ruin the experience for solo players, it made all of the stats charts that people love so much entirely meaningless- making it the worst of all worlds for multiple types of players.

The adding of Groups is another issue. One that many folks (including some truly top players) said was a bad idea. So that’s a separate issue from the PSR change. Yes, the adding of groups could easily help one “juice” your w/l and perhaps MS (although dropping with top players on your team can also hamper getting a high MS...their is only so much damage to be had and they will get a lot of it).

Being that we do know when they added groups to solo queue, we can probably figure out (on Jarls) that if someone has a sudden big jump (in their W/L and possibly somewhat in match scores) once the group feature got added that the group feature likely played a part in their new and better stats. That said some of the most ridiculous w/l’s (12/1+ ) we are seeing right now is just from top players grouping up. But, they were already top players and everyone knows that.

[Biomechtric]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 15 July 2020 - 08:20 AM, said:

The adding of Groups is another issue. One that many folks (including some truly top players) said was a bad idea. So that’s a separate issue from the PSR change. Yes, the adding of groups could easily help one “juice” your w/l and perhaps MS (although dropping with top players on your team can also hamper getting a high MS...their is only so much damage to be had and they will get a lot of it).

Being that we do know when they added groups to solo queue, we can probably figure out (on Jarls) that if someone has a sudden big jump (in their W/L and possibly somewhat in match scores) once the group feature got added that the group feature likely played a part in their new and better stats. That said some of the most ridiculous w/l’s (12/1+ ) we are seeing right now is just from top players grouping up. But, they were already top players and everyone knows that.

Damn you! I was in the middle of replying when your post popped up & I had said pretty much the same in mine, matchscores, damage, kills etc are all LOWER when in a good team as they are usually more accurate, hit the same target & generally kill faster than unorganised teams can & hence limit what can be farmed.

Is it any surprise to us that the best players tend to find each other & play together? Not really as all they have done is find players of their own skill level to play with, exactly what is tying to be achieved with the PSR changes.

Edited by Biomechtric, 15 July 2020 - 08:31 AM.

[Biomechtric]

OneTeamPlayer, on 15 July 2020 - 07:07 AM, said:

I'm not sure about the old Jarl's list, but i'm pretty sure current Jarl's list currently includes stats from pre-formed groups dropping in solo queue which is to say they are essentially useless since the merge.

"Congratulations you can gain high stats by playing in unbalanced units against people outside your skill classification" 2Pro4Gaming.

We wouldn't care about NBA players against the group of guys playing on the local court, about college football players against the local two-hand touch league, nor the stats of groups versus random individuals.

Not only did the change ruin the experience for solo players, it made all of the stats charts that people love so much entirely meaningless- making it the worst of all worlds for multiple types of players.

I'm sure the pro players are fine about playing with the lower skilled ones, just not every time they play. & that goes both ways as the low skilled players would get bummed pretty quick when they realise they are not involved in the game as they can't keep up etc with the better players.

Edited by Biomechtric, 15 July 2020 - 08:38 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Biomechtric, on 15 July 2020 - 08:31 AM, said:

Damn you! I was in the middle of replying when your post popped up & I had said pretty much the same in mine, matchscores, damage, kills etc are all LOWER when in a good team as they are usually more accurate, hit the same target & generally kill faster than unorganised teams can & hence limit what can be farmed.

Is it any surprise to us that the best players tend to find each other & play together? Not really as all they have done is find players of their own skill level to play with, exactly what is tying to be achieved with the PSR changes.

It’s no surprise...they want to play with friends. Their friends just happen to be much, much better than the friends most players have. Plus, I get why they want to see how many games in a row they can win....it’s probably a mini-game within the game to them.

I am starting to think about how this new PSR system might to impact long term players who have average-ish Jarl’s ranks. It might well be a net positive on Jarls ranking for those players. For example a (formerly) tier 1 guy with a 50% monthly ranking may well see improvement in his Jarl’s . Considering that he was only really facing tier 1-3 players in the old system (and was average) he/she will probably settle into tier 2 and might well press the bottom end tier 1. As if the matchmaker ends up working (big “if”) they will continue to face some tier 4’s and may well score well (in terms of MS) in such matches were they are perhaps the best player of the 24 dropping.

[Biomechtric]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 15 July 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

It’s no surprise...they want to play with friends. Their friends just happen to be much, much better than the friends most players have. Plus, I get why they want to see how many games in a row they can win....it’s probably a mini-game within the game to them.

I am starting to think about how this new PSR system might to impact long term players who have average-ish Jarl’s ranks. It might well be a net positive on Jarls ranking for those players. For example a (formerly) tier 1 guy with a 50% monthly ranking may well see improvement in his Jarl’s . Considering that he was only really facing tier 1-3 players in the old system (and was average) he/she will probably settle into tier 2 and might well press the bottom end tier 1. As if the matchmaker ends up working (big “if”) they will continue to face some tier 4’s and may well score well (in terms of MS) in such matches were they are perhaps the best player of the 24 dropping.

I think you are correct, players should eventually feel they are performing better as they will be matched against similar levels of skill & this should increase in game earnings for them as well as match score.
I also agree with the 'big if' side of things. We all have to give the new system a chance to settle in before we know if it is helping. If it does Woo-Hoo! If not then PGI have at least gained a new data set they can use in the next iteration, if needed.

[Thorn Hallis]

The grind from Tier 3 down to Tier 4 takes waaaaay to much time.

[martian]

Thorn Hallis, on 15 July 2020 - 09:15 AM, said:

The grind from Tier 3 down to Tier 4 takes waaaaay to much time.

So grind up to Tier 1 or 2.

[Scout Derek]

apcboss, on 13 July 2020 - 03:13 PM, said:

being slingshot out of tier one doesnt hurt my pride i really dont care but if i can only advance in the game by pure greed for damage ?????i am not satisfied im a headhunter and i kill with least damage at least the other system thanked me for that and piggi eye get your balls back into your pants and take this **** like men as a mishap

You can lie to yourself, but please don't lie to others

[Thorn Hallis]

martian, on 15 July 2020 - 09:22 AM, said:

So grind up to Tier 1 or 2.

Not good enough for that.

[Sawk]

OK i await the result, and I have said enough, i lost more then a tier level, in the change. But someone once said of the old system if you can make it to tier 1 or 2 and be solo, then there pretty good odds, your a good pilot.
Guess what i am solo, and did make it in the old system, this system makes it harder, watch your backs guys : ) oh if your RED or if you jump in front of me.

Sawk
PS i just got my army retirement orders : )

[ShooterMcGavin80]

what is going on with wait times?

Takes over 5 minutes now to get a match today.


-edit -

and tiers are more segregated now? So I have to bring tryhard meta all the time, everytime?

I can't grind unksilled non-meta mechs anymore AND my wait time has gone up to 5-10 minutes?

Edited by ShooterMcGavin80, 15 July 2020 - 06:44 PM.

[OneTeamPlayer]

ShooterMcGavin80, on 15 July 2020 - 06:42 PM, said:

what is going on with wait times?

Takes over 5 minutes now to get a match today.


-edit -

and tiers are more segregated now? So I have to bring tryhard meta all the time, everytime?

I can't grind unksilled non-meta mechs anymore AND my wait time has gone up to 5-10 minutes?

The matchmaker is restricted to one tier, which means 5 to 10 minute waits in primetime even with a "4 minute release valve".

It's being done to prove a point, but the point it really proved was that most people have a point at which they'll put up with lack of basic fundamental game infrastructure (like a functional matchmaker) until they're simply done.

For those who are wondering no, there's not an uninstall tool, it has to be done manually.

Edited by OneTeamPlayer, 15 July 2020 - 07:28 PM.

[Redeye Sigma]

Paul Inouye, on 23 June 2020 - 05:12 PM, said:

Hey Folks,

So we sat down and analyzed the core proposals that were submitted, including those outside of the 4 cores presented. At the end of the day, we believe Core 2B + Modifications, known as Core 2C from the initial pitch from Jay Z, would get the community what it needs in terms of PSR distribution. With corrections and including average team based match score comparisons, it provides a more fair method of PSR movement.

That being said, here is some info and clarification of what's happening in "Core 2C".

As mentioned in Jay Z's original proposition, win/loss still has a factor in terms of overall movement but is mitigated by the way the amount of movement is calculated.

In short, here is the formula being used:

PSR Change = W(X) - Y + Y( C(P/A) + (1-C)(P/M) )

Where:
W - The win/loss variable used to determine direction of movement.
X - Win/Loss constant used in weighting average team PSR shift
Y - Matchscore constant used in weighting PSR shift compared to the value of X
P - Individual Pilot's Matchscore
A - Team's average Matchscore
C - Team's average Matchscore constant used in weighting calculated team effects
M - Average Matchscore across all 24 players in the match

Example:
This is the data from a game that happened recently. Using the above calculation, the following PSR changes will happen:



Running the top player on the winning team's numbers we will get:

PSR Change = +1(5) - 20 + 20(0.6 (537/300) + (1-0.6)(537/242)
= +24.3

Running the bottom player on the winning team's numbers we get:
PSR Change = +1(5) - 20 + 20(0.6 (77/300) + (1-0.6)(77/242)
= -9.4

Running the top player on the losing team's numbers we get:
PSR Change = -1(5) - 20 + 20(0.6(229/183) + (1-0.6)(229/242)
= -2.4

Running the bottom player on the losing team's numbers we get:
PSR Change = -1(5) - 20 + 20(0.6(84/183) + (1-0.6)(84/242)
= -16.7

While it may seem to not be equal since the change in opposite directions is not the same for the winning top player, and bottom losing player, there are more people with bigger negative values on the losing team to counter it.

Sounds confusing but it's actually pretty straight forward and maintains win/loss performance with zero sum movement amounts.

So here's what we're trying to fix. This image below is a data pull of active players in the last 3 months and the current Tier distribution (How many players are currently in each Tier):



As you can see, we have a large number of players in Tier 5 and a relatively flat line of players across Tier 4, 3, 2 and 1. While this 'looks' theoretically okay, the large spike in Tier 5 and even distribution across the other tiers is not ideal when trying to match make players against one another.

With this new system, we're hoping to see the following (orange version) distribution across the playerbase:




In an ideal world, this graph is a bell curve graph. With full zero sum implementation, we might get there.


[color=orange]So here's the rundown of upcoming changes:[/color]

PSR range is being increased from 0-3750, to 0-5000 to allow a little more room for distribution with the new system.
PSR WILL be reset to 2500 for all players.
There is no longer a PSR placement booster for new players/reset players that used to bump players in their first 10 matches.
The new formula for calculating PSR movement is as proposed by the community: W(X) - Y + Y( C(P/A) + (1-C)(P/M) )
The constants used for weighting will be set to X=5, Y=20 and C=0.6.


This change will require a full patch to the client and servers. I do not have a direct ETA but it will be in the VERY near future. I will update this post as soon as I get the estimate tomorrow (Jun 24). This new system is currently being tested by QA and is working as intended. It's not a big patch, just needs to be timed correctly.

[color=orange]UPDATE: ETA is Tuesday June 30th.[/color]

It seems like this change will make the wait time 10 times longer for Tier 5 players. For QP it used to take 1 to 2 mins if not immediately to get into a QP game, not it takes 20 minutes or longer! If this continues, this Tier 5 player won't be playing this game any more because the wait time is ridiculous. Also, I don't think that a Tier 5 player automatically makes them a noob.... Please, just get us in the game in less than 2 minutes.... otherwise why play this game. It is fun, but I am going to wait 20 minutes to play a 2 minute game just because someone things I am a noob (I am not a noob, I played MW2 until Hasbro ruined it with MW3). THis game is similar, but it is fun because of the on line play and maybe not knowing how many noobs you get is a good thing.. it might make you a better player because you end up having to fight 5 mechs for a few seconds instead of boringly shoot people that don't even know that you are shooting at them!

[A Flying Biskit]

This PSR system rewards you for being average. If you're good, or if you're bad, you just don't get to play, because the queue times are utterly ridiculous.

This system is good, in a vacuum. There are not enough good players, there are not enough bad players, there are not enough players for this to work.

As of this post, I've been sitting in the queue for a tier 1 game, as a light mech (lowest pop, according to the counter) for over 10 minutes. At this point, I'd rather run against the entire 228 and EMP comp teams with a bunch of LRM5 Javelins on my team, just so I can actually play the game.