379 replies to this topic

[martian]

Gurney Hallack, on 06 May 2021 - 11:12 AM, said:

GOOD! Thanks for listening to us. It's a little disheartening to fight your butt off. Do GREAT in a match. Yet still get a drop in rank, and Tier. Found myself looking at my drop yet did AWESOME in the match and had a face at the end when I saw the vV in red.

You get the same red arrow if you drop some 2-3 points or if you drop 20 points.

Edited by martian, 06 May 2021 - 11:32 AM.

[MadDach5und]

I have been stuck along the purgatory line between Tier 3 and 4 pretty much since the scoring re-negotiation.

Tier 3 solo matches are NOT better than Tier 4 or 5. Group dropping with Tier 1 and 2 players have been extraordinarily better.
My biggest gripe about PSR - is the pilot behaviors have been sharply steering towards selfish vulture-like behavior. MANY mechs designed for close battle (NOT just a few solos but even whole lance GROUP drops) and lots of damage are staying passive, not engaging with anyone directly - UNTIL they can exploit another teammates hard-earned damage work.

The "NASCAR' gripe about circling the map without firing a shot is a DIRECT result of this kind of mentality. Players do NOT want to engage. At least, not until someone else does. I have had far too many matches with players refusing to stop and turn around to face the enemy -- instead choosing to do this endless chase/pursuit until they hopefully find someone IN FRONT of them with their back turned.

An enemy mech getting pummeled is like ringing the dinner bell for a bunch of wolves - teammates literally dropping any objectives or offense they MIGHT have been doing - pushing and crawling over each other to get that final precious kill shot.

That vulture behavior is a direct result of final kill shots carrying far too much weight. The near total loss of objective play is also a symptom of the same thing. Final kills mean far too much, and damage dealt carries far too much weight as well. KMDD should be worth more, at damage dealt in general --- and objective play needs a tremendous boost if you want to see any kind of collaboration to happen.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Dunno what to tell you, the killing blow itself rewards less than a KMDD or a Solokill in particular. If people don't get that, it's on them, not the system.

[Sawk]

Hmm i can help you, if your stuck right there, tier 3 to 4-- you have good mechs (build cents) , and your probally on high speed computer. 3 things
1-- try changing your time zone, even if you play less games, the worst time is 7pm to 10 pm eastern time, i am stuck in this zone many MANY, tier 4 to 5 players, very hard solo.
2--- try turning off a server, many only play like to american server, if you play say at 3PM eastern try the server europe, its a smaller group but very good
3---- the hardest thing it is for most------- try to say HI, and get folks talking, or build a team or join a team, this is akin to my training in the army, leadership, it can be a hard thing, for young and old folks, hope it helps

SAWK PS woot had blown power unit, i need to kill someone

[Alreech]

MadDach5und, on 25 May 2021 - 02:20 PM, said:

My biggest gripe about PSR - is the pilot behaviors have been sharply steering towards selfish vulture-like behavior. MANY mechs designed for close battle (NOT just a few solos but even whole lance GROUP drops) and lots of damage are staying passive, not engaging with anyone directly - UNTIL they can exploit another teammates hard-earned damage work.

The "NASCAR' gripe about circling the map without firing a shot is a DIRECT result of this kind of mentality. Players do NOT want to engage. At least, not until someone else does. I have had far too many matches with players refusing to stop and turn around to face the enemy -- instead choosing to do this endless chase/pursuit until they hopefully find someone IN FRONT of them with their back turned.

An enemy mech getting pummeled is like ringing the dinner bell for a bunch of wolves - teammates literally dropping any objectives or offense they MIGHT have been doing - pushing and crawling over each other to get that final precious kill shot.

That vulture behavior is a direct result of final kill shots carrying far too much weight.

No, this vulture behavior is the direct result of random teams made up for one match and than dissolved.
In such a team i don't know the other players and i don't care about them.
Why should i? In the next match i have new teammates.
It's also easier to run a close quarter combat builds in such a team.

If you want teammates that care about you and want to play more specialised mechs drop in a group.
But most MWO players like the fast matches without te need to group up, that's MWO largest unique selling point.

[T e c h 4 9]

Well, the current PSR system is not perfect......though, it is improved over the old one IMHO.

See, the PSR is directly tied to match score though, and a comparison of your match score vs. the rest of your team's match score, and the average match score for all 24 players in the drop. I think this is mostly the right way to do it, because it shows performance relative to everyone else. I think the issue with it though, is two-fold:

1) when there are a few really high-match-score players on the team, it appears to be harder to get an up arrow (PSR goes up) if everyone else is relatively equal on match score
2) this system assumes match score is calculated correctly; meaning, it accurately reflects your actual contribution to the team.

#2 is where I believe the real problem lies. I don't think PGI has (ever) published the method used to calculate match score. Players have tried to figure it out, but I don't think anyone has figured it out 100% accurately yet. It seems the biggest contributor to match score is damage done, and getting the win. If that is true, then anyone playing a support role and doing minimal damage is likely penalized for doing so. Likewise, tanking damage apparently means nothing, so if you bear the brunt of a push and lead the charge, only to get focused down quickly without getting alot of damage out, you will be penalized as well. As for damage done, considering that you have 15 minutes in a match to do damage (actually, less than that as it takes time to move from spawn point into the battle), the best way to accomplish a large damage output is to continuously put out damage over time, even if the damage is low for each shot. How to do this? Hang back and hit with high-DPS range builds, or fast-movers that hit and run, play a skirmisher role and kite the enemy, and use multiple strikes. Playing the brawly, aggressive in-your-face style likely will not allow you to be at the top of the stack for match score in most matches, unless your entire team is brawly and aggressive.

At least, those are my thoughts on PSR and match score. It doesn't likely affect me as much as it does lower-tiered (not necessarily lower skilled) players, but I still see it to some extent. I've gone back to tier 2 once, and I'm not far from the tier 2 drop again if I'm not careful.

I'd like to see PGI publish the match score formula personally, just for transparency (yes, some ppl will "game" it then - so what?).

[GARION26]

T e c h 4 9, on 27 May 2021 - 04:17 AM, said:

I'd like to see PGI publish the match score formula personally, just for transparency (yes, some ppl will "game" it then - so what?).

See this thread note though AMS has been reduced in it's contribution since then
https://mwomercs.com...ch-score-magic/

[Lord451]

MadDach5und, on 25 May 2021 - 02:20 PM, said:

I have been stuck along the purgatory line between Tier 3 and 4 pretty much since the scoring re-negotiation.

Tier 3 solo matches are NOT better than Tier 4 or 5. Group dropping with Tier 1 and 2 players have been extraordinarily better.
My biggest gripe about PSR - is the pilot behaviors have been sharply steering towards selfish vulture-like behavior. MANY mechs designed for close battle (NOT just a few solos but even whole lance GROUP drops) and lots of damage are staying passive, not engaging with anyone directly - UNTIL they can exploit another teammates hard-earned damage work.

The "NASCAR' gripe about circling the map without firing a shot is a DIRECT result of this kind of mentality. Players do NOT want to engage. At least, not until someone else does. I have had far too many matches with players refusing to stop and turn around to face the enemy -- instead choosing to do this endless chase/pursuit until they hopefully find someone IN FRONT of them with their back turned.

An enemy mech getting pummeled is like ringing the dinner bell for a bunch of wolves - teammates literally dropping any objectives or offense they MIGHT have been doing - pushing and crawling over each other to get that final precious kill shot.

That vulture behavior is a direct result of final kill shots carrying far too much weight. The near total loss of objective play is also a symptom of the same thing. Final kills mean far too much, and damage dealt carries far too much weight as well. KMDD should be worth more, at damage dealt in general --- and objective play needs a tremendous boost if you want to see any kind of collaboration to happen.

This is how I feel. I'm also in that 3/4 purgatory. And my tier 3 matches feel very different from the tier 4. And I can't play any of my fun mech. NARC Raven? Impossible to not drop. Ive been responsible for three LRM boats on our team annihilating most of their force, plus making it so their peakers get wrecked because everybody can see them coming. But guess what? I suck. I go down. Either I play my ******** meta mechs, slink around trying to do as much damage as possible, or I go down to 4 again. There is no in between.

Edited by Lord451, 07 July 2021 - 08:09 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Why would you want to be in a higher tier if you can't play your fun mechs there and deploy tactics that make you enjoy your time more?

[martian]

Lord451, on 07 July 2021 - 08:05 PM, said:

This is how I feel. I'm also in that 3/4 purgatory. And my tier 3 matches feel very different from the tier 4. And I can't play any of my fun mech. NARC Raven? Impossible to not drop. Ive been responsible for three LRM boats on our team annihilating most of their force, plus making it so their peakers get wrecked because everybody can see them coming. But guess what? I suck. I go down. Either I play my ******** meta mechs, slink around trying to do as much damage as possible, or I go down to 4 again. There is no in between.

1) You should not play MWO to have some Tier badge, you should play the game to have fun. What would be the point in deploying in the game - albeit with T3 badge - and not actually enjoying it?

2) NARC Raven can be fun in Tier 4, but the higher in Tiers you get, the less fun for you and the smaller contribution for your team it will become. Because, you know, the higher you move, the less friendly LRM boats you will meet.

3) Even though your Raven carries NARC Beacon, you should have some weapons (lasers or some type of PPCs) that would allow you to do some damage on your own. Like it or not, "damage done" is the important part of the MS/PSR metric.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

martian, on 07 July 2021 - 09:33 PM, said:

3) Even though your Raven carries NARC Beacon, you should have some weapons (lasers or some type of PPCs) that would allow you to do some damage on your own. Like it or not, "damage done" is the important part of the MS/PSR metric.

Maybe sth like this https://mech.nav-alp...69cbaa86_RVN-3L

[Gagis]

NARC is very strong in a coordinated group or team. Can't exactly expect coordination in solo Quick Play, so I'd just leave it waiting till you have friends to play with.

[martian]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 07 July 2021 - 11:50 PM, said:

Maybe sth like this https://mech.nav-alp...69cbaa86_RVN-3L

Yeah, something like it, but perhaps with slightly more NARC reloads.

Gagis, on 07 July 2021 - 11:57 PM, said:

NARC is very strong in a coordinated group or team. Can't exactly expect coordination in solo Quick Play, so I'd just leave it waiting till you have friends to play with.

You are right. There is no point in dropping solo in a NARC-carrying 'Mech, only to find out that your QP team has no LRMs that could take the advantage of your NARC Beacon.

[Lord451]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 07 July 2021 - 08:30 PM, said:

Why would you want to be in a higher tier if you can't play your fun mechs there and deploy tactics that make you enjoy your time more?

Because the games are generally more interesting, with more coordination and you get punished more for doing dumb stuff. I have my lights get legged more in a day of playing in tier 3 than they do in a month of tier 4. The grouping is fun but it just sucks being punished for being a team player instead of a vulture.

[martian]

Lord451, on 08 July 2021 - 08:23 AM, said:

Because the games are generally more interesting, with more coordination and you get punished more for doing dumb stuff.

Are you praising or complaining?

Lord451, on 08 July 2021 - 08:23 AM, said:

I have my lights get legged more in a day of playing in tier 3 than they do in a month of tier 4.

That can be a problem. Tier 1 players are - generally speaking - better gunners than Tier 4 players. The life of light 'Mechs is more difficult in higher Tiers.

Lord451, on 08 July 2021 - 08:23 AM, said:

The grouping is fun but it just sucks being punished for being a team player instead of a vulture.

The higher you move, the faster you will find out that the best how you can help your team is to remove that NARC Beacon from your Raven and equip lasers, PPCs, SRMs or MRMs instead (unless you are dropping with three Assault-class 'Mechs filled with LRMs, of course).

[Sawk]

OK its been 1 year since, the TIER LEVEL math was done, and folks --- LIKE having TITLES, per say TIER 1.
THE MATH is UNFAIR, A few PILOTS got PGI to change the math, and those tier 1 players now use it to HOLD the lesser, or in some way NEW players out of there games. guess what for them it has worked great.
BUT for 50% or more it means you have to get a match score of 250+ or more every drop to go up in TIER LEVEL, we are talking 100 drops above 300, with no breaks.
anyway there is not enough support, from there player base, to have them reconsider changing any thing, if you read back there was talking points to help lights, and ect ect types of builds, but for now unless, your in a good team or maybe have youtube channel, or twitch channel, or your HALF GOD, good luck : )

SAWK PS BE that vulture, be dark, until find that team, or mech that lets you go up, more folks make tier level with lazer vomit !

[martian]

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

OK its been 1 year since, the TIER LEVEL math was done, and folks --- LIKE having TITLES, per say TIER 1.

Some people like it, other people do not like it.

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

THE MATH is UNFAIR,

Nonsense. The new PSR equation is the same for every single MWO player. You, me, everybody ...

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

A few PILOTS got PGI to change the math

Nonsense. PGI itself decided to reset the PSR system because it was obviously flawed. Many evidently low-skilled players moved to Tier 1 not thanks to their skill, but because of the great number of games they played.

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

and those tier 1 players now use it to HOLD the lesser, or in some way NEW players out of there games. guess what for them it has worked great.

Tier 1 players can not hold you out of their games, if they do not even see you in their games.

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

BUT for 50% or more it means you have to get a match score of 250+ or more every drop to go up in TIER LEVEL, we are talking 100 drops above 300, with no breaks.

Of course one does not have to win every single game. But on average one should have a solid match score. Occassional loses will be lost in that average.

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

anyway there is not enough support, from there player base, to have them reconsider changing any thing,

Exactly year ago all MWO players were moved to mid-Tier 3. Some players then moved to Tier 1. You have moved to Tier 5. Have you ever thought that you should change you tactics or adjust your 'Mech builds?

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

if you read back there was talking points to help lights,

And PGI really helped them: For example, the last patch has made many light 'Mechs more agile.

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

and ect ect types of builds,

For example, the April patch improved Light PPCs which means that many light 'Mechs are now using them again.

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

but for now unless, your in a good team or maybe have youtube channel, or twitch channel, or your HALF GOD, good luck : )

I am not in a good team ...
I have no Youtube channel ...
I have no Twitch channel ...
I am definitely no demigod ...

... and yet I have moved to Tier 1. So obviously I am doing something right.

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

SAWK PS BE that vulture, be dark, until find that team, or mech that lets you go up,

Being in a team is not necessary to move up, while running at least a semi-reasonable 'Mech build is.

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

more folks make tier level with lazer vomit !

And many folks move up running ballistic boats and some other folks move up running missile boats. And let's not forget folks running mixed loadouts ...

[Biomechtric]

Sawk, on 08 July 2021 - 04:53 PM, said:

OK its been 1 year since, the TIER LEVEL math was done, and folks --- LIKE having TITLES, per say TIER 1.
THE MATH is UNFAIR, A few PILOTS got PGI to change the math, and those tier 1 players now use it to HOLD the lesser, or in some way NEW players out of there games. guess what for them it has worked great.
BUT for 50% or more it means you have to get a match score of 250+ or more every drop to go up in TIER LEVEL, we are talking 100 drops above 300, with no breaks.
anyway there is not enough support, from there player base, to have them reconsider changing any thing, if you read back there was talking points to help lights, and ect ect types of builds, but for now unless, your in a good team or maybe have youtube channel, or twitch channel, or your HALF GOD, good luck : )

SAWK PS BE that vulture, be dark, until find that team, or mech that lets you go up, more folks make tier level with lazer vomit !

It's YOU, not the match maker or the game balance or even the builds you use. I am sorry to break it to you but if after a year you are in T5 then it means that you are playing how a T5 player does, how else can you even think to explain your current tier in any other way? The entitlement is strong with this one..
No amount of changing formulas or rewards given will change that because the good players will always be comparatively better than you are in any system.
Sorry but facts are facts, Time to wake up now sleepy head, dream time's over...

[Lord451]

Biomechtric, on 08 July 2021 - 11:06 PM, said:

Sorry but facts are facts, Time to wake up now sleepy head, dream time's over...

And the fact is, playing a laser vomit meta mech has let me fairly easily climb to mid tier 3 (might go higher, I just haven't been playing this POS very long). The mech you play absolutely has an impact in your scores. Recon means nothing. If you're playing a light that doesn't explodigate things, you're worthless as far as the formula goes. And I recently came back after a hiatus and found that I'd been shunted into tier 5 when I got back. They mentioned in one of the patch notes that they listened to the crowd and stuck all "new people" in tier 5. Which sort of makes sense. The biggest thing that irks me in the formula is that they mention ideally getting a bell curve out of it, but this system absolutely does not do that. In fact it can't. If it's zero sum, and everbody starts in tier 5, you're going to be very weighted negatively because suddenly there just aren't enough free floating points for tier 3 to be an average.

I can't say if that's good or bad, but this certainly doesn't do what they claim they wanted it to do.

MadDach5und, on 25 May 2021 - 02:20 PM, said:

I have been stuck along the purgatory line between Tier 3 and 4 pretty much since the scoring re-negotiation.

Tier 3 solo matches are NOT better than Tier 4 or 5. Group dropping with Tier 1 and 2 players have been extraordinarily better.
My biggest gripe about PSR - is the pilot behaviors have been sharply steering towards selfish vulture-like behavior. MANY mechs designed for close battle (NOT just a few solos but even whole lance GROUP drops) and lots of damage are staying passive, not engaging with anyone directly - UNTIL they can exploit another teammates hard-earned damage work.

The "NASCAR' gripe about circling the map without firing a shot is a DIRECT result of this kind of mentality. Players do NOT want to engage. At least, not until someone else does. I have had far too many matches with players refusing to stop and turn around to face the enemy -- instead choosing to do this endless chase/pursuit until they hopefully find someone IN FRONT of them with their back turned.

An enemy mech getting pummeled is like ringing the dinner bell for a bunch of wolves - teammates literally dropping any objectives or offense they MIGHT have been doing - pushing and crawling over each other to get that final precious kill shot.

That vulture behavior is a direct result of final kill shots carrying far too much weight. The near total loss of objective play is also a symptom of the same thing. Final kills mean far too much, and damage dealt carries far too much weight as well. KMDD should be worth more, at damage dealt in general --- and objective play needs a tremendous boost if you want to see any kind of collaboration to happen.

I think this phenomenally sums up some of the problems. Thinking on MOBA terms, this game solely rewards DPS. Objective caputure and tanking are ignored or penalized. If I take an Atlas and walk out into the open, taking point so we finally stop hiding behind a hill and peeking while all of our brawler builds look like the WW1 pictures of soldiers in the trenches playing cards, my taking fire allows snipers to get into position and for the brawlers to rush out without dying.

But because I'm making an opportunity to push, something that assaults ought to be used for, I get nothing. I'd be better off hiding in the back, backpedalling with CERPPC build and just nickel and diming the enemy while running away. Even if that doesn't win games. 400 damage can easily be three kills if aimed well, but it can also be scratching half the front armor off an Annihilator.

And since damage is all that matters, I also get punished for killing mechs effectively. If I take a scout and walk up behind somebody, blow out their rear armor and CT, I don't get nearly as much score as if I'd been a heavy and just roflwambod rounds all over his face and only barely killed him.

That seems like a problem. And I know this because I've had a match in a Piranha where I got to core two mediums and an assault mech, so alone I took out almost 200 tons of enemy, and at the end, points down because I only did 150 damage and we lost (our other flank got absolutely rekt and I died shortly after that coup).

Versus other games where I've done LL sniping, didn't kill a damned thing, but I had 500 damage at the end. Mostly just raking off armor from their heavy snipers, don't think I even got any critical damage. And I went up.

My complaint isn't what tier I'm in per se, it's what gets you into higher tiers.

Edited by Lord451, 09 July 2021 - 10:23 AM.

[Gagis]

Lord451, on 09 July 2021 - 10:13 AM, said:

And the fact is, playing a laser vomit meta mech has let me fairly easily climb to mid tier 3 (might go higher, I just haven't been playing this POS very long). The mech you play absolutely has an impact in your scores. Recon means nothing. If you're playing a light that doesn't explodigate things, you're worthless as far as the formula goes. And I recently came back after a hiatus and found that I'd been shunted into tier 5 when I got back. They mentioned in one of the patch notes that they listened to the crowd and stuck all "new people" in tier 5. Which sort of makes sense. The biggest thing that irks me in the formula is that they mention ideally getting a bell curve out of it, but this system absolutely does not do that. In fact it can't. If it's zero sum, and everbody starts in tier 5, you're going to be very weighted negatively because suddenly there just aren't enough free floating points for tier 3 to be an average.

I can't say if that's good or bad, but this certainly doesn't do what they claim they wanted it to do.

The system "leaks" on both ends. A player at the bottom of tier 5 loses points without actually losing any points and a player at top of tier 1 gains points without actually gaining any points, so those ends get a bit more population.

Most old players got reset to tier 3 first and only those who had not logged in for some time got reset to tier 5 with the newbies