642 replies to this topic

[Fractis Zero]

SharDar, on 25 July 2020 - 03:48 PM, said:

What about what I posted about the stats on the leaderboard? Let's not focus on one mech, one pilot, or what might happen in a match. My point is that there is a disparity in average match score between light mechs and assault mechs. I don't think most people would be surprised by that. I'm suggesting that the PSR factor in the weight class so that light mechs are not unduly punished for their choice of mech.

The longer you survive the more match score you acquire. If you run in and do 300 damage but die in the early stages of the match if your team loses there is a good chance that your PSR goes down. Same damage output and be one of the last to die good chance of = or +.

Mech choice is a big deal. If you are running around in a spider might be time to buy a meta.

Edited by Fractis Zero, 26 July 2020 - 07:41 AM.

[selfish shellfish]

My mechs and their average damage output in a match:

Mech - damage - weapons
SDR - 270 - 2xSnubPPC
HBK - 301 - AC20, 2ERML, ERSL
LCT - 309 - 6SPL
CHP - 337 - 2LPL, LBX10
HTM - 343 - 2LPL, 2ERML, AC10

Yes, there is a difference in class but not a huge one. Of course results may vary wildly depending on mech variant/loadout and player skill.

I don't know how a Tier 5 player would benefit from playing in the higher Tiers though. Wouldn't it just mean even smaller survival rate and less damage output?

Edited by selfish shellfish, 26 July 2020 - 08:01 AM.

[Horseman]

selfish shellfish, on 26 July 2020 - 07:59 AM, said:

My mechs and their average damage output in a match:

Mech - damage - weapons
SDR - 270 - 2xSnubPPC
HBK - 301 - AC20, 2ERML, ERSL
LCT - 309 - 6SPL
CHP - 337 - 2LPL, LBX10
HTM - 343 - 2LPL, 2ERML, AC10

Yes, there is a difference in class but not a huge one. Of course results may vary wildly depending on mech variant/loadout and player skill.

Pretty much. There are some stats floating around from a few competitive events that only cement this further.

[Hengest]

Horseman, on 23 July 2020 - 10:42 PM, said:

I'm fairly sure it's actually bannable.

Okay.. I got it :-) I will not sell my account.... I will, upon hitting the bottom line, just let my ol' and trusted steeds go to pasture :-)

Lockheed_, on 24 July 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:

It sounds like if you only do well in a good team, then that means you are getting carried. A good player that is placed in a higher Tier can do well without the need of having a good team. The issues you are describing of getting overwhelmed by (stealth) lights seems like another reason why you are losing rank. An assault is most likely to be left behind and that happended on a regular basis in T1, also an assault who's main armament are missiles that need a lock, creates pretty much the perfect victim mech to every stealth mech in the game and any fast lights who can outmaneuver you. It looks like you could easily remedy your situation with the lights if you had some decent direct fire power and also more speed to stay in the group and don't get that easily outmaneuvered. When you get countered in a game it's time to switch it up and adapt. LURM assault just get really easily countered. It is the worst combination of tonnage and weapon system. There is a reason people dont like LURM assaults. They are a liability to their team.
If you want to shoot LURMs try a mad dogfor example with a bunch of lasers in the arms. Easy tracking, maneuvarable enough to stay with the team and a big enough threat to stealth mechs so you don't need to rely on locks.
I sometimes run a 4 LRM20 MDD and that thing can break the1k dmg mark.

as for "being carried": in a team, that PLAYS as a TEAM, I can pull my own weight, no problem. In a team, that is hellbent for nascar... well, nope.
Thank you for the advice about the MadDog; I play MDD "just for fun", I might start doing it for real :-)

[SharDar]

selfish shellfish, on 26 July 2020 - 07:59 AM, said:

My mechs and their average damage output in a match:

Mech - damage - weapons
SDR - 270 - 2xSnubPPC
HBK - 301 - AC20, 2ERML, ERSL
LCT - 309 - 6SPL
CHP - 337 - 2LPL, LBX10
HTM - 343 - 2LPL, 2ERML, AC10

Yes, there is a difference in class but not a huge one. Of course results may vary wildly depending on mech variant/loadout and player skill.

I don't know how a Tier 5 player would benefit from playing in the higher Tiers though. Wouldn't it just mean even smaller survival rate and less damage output?

A lower tier player benefits from playing with higher tier players by seeing how the game is meant to be played. I get to see better team tactics and better individual tactics. I don't mind that I am more likely to get killed by the better players. I DO wish the PSR factored in the difference in PSR when deciding the Match Score. As a Tier 5 player, it is much more of an accomplishment for me to do significant damage to or kill a Tier 2 player. Likewise, it is probably not much of an accomplish if the reverse happens. But the match score does not take that difference into account, so my match score is the same as if I were a Tier 2 player playing against other tier 2 players.

The calculation could use a delta from the average PSR when it determines your match score. If you're significantly below that average, your match score will be higher. If you're significantly above that average, it would be lower. It could also do this on a player-by-player basis, applying a factor calculated by the different in PSR ratings to determine how to accumulate points for damage and kills. So, if a tier 5 player kills a tier 2 player, they get more points than killing another tier 5 player.

This allows mixed level play with people being rewarded for results that are based on relative skill level. This creates a kind of handicap system like you find in bowling and golf.

[SharDar]

Alreech, on 26 July 2020 - 12:42 AM, said:

You are right, so change your style of play to damage and kills.

Get a fast medium or heavy Mech with lot's of missle hardpoints (and ECM if posible), boat SRMs and go for kills.
Gang up with other fast Mechs, but don't bother to let them die alone if the situation gets worse.
Relocate, pick out damaged enemys.

To be a good player you have to have a positive K/D, that means you have to kill at least one enemy per game, regardless if you win or lose that match.
Games won by capturing while enemys left alive don't help you much to boost your K/D.

Scouting & Capturing don't realy have a place in quickplay, and modes like Assault, Conquest & Incursion should be removed from Quickplay like Escort was removed.


Don't go capping, go killing.
The team that splits up in conquest to capture gets killed by teams that stay together and form a mob.
Even if that team doesn't win the match (most time there is plenty of minutes left to capture after the last kill) the damage and kills bosts your K/D.

In the worst case a Domination match is getting lost in the first minute because only the enemy team is capping. So what?
The only effect is that you have to spawn with a new team in a new match.

I appreciate your advice for how to get a higher match score. What I'm trying to deal with is the inherent disadvantage a light mech has when PSR is assigned based on a match score that doesn't factor in the disparity between armor and firepower between lights and assaults.

Personally, I don't want to ignore the game and just go for kills. I want to be a team player. I like to run around and cap so we don't lose. I like to go back and drive attackers off the base. I just wish I wasn't being punished for demonstrating team-centric behaviors. The current system incents players to ignore the game mode and focus on personal stats. And then people complain because we're not playing as a team. If we want to just see how much damage and how many kills you can get, why not just eliminate everything except skirmish? In fact, why not just make it deathmatch, where you respawn and go in for more kills?

I don't want to play that way. At its core, this is a team game with different mechs beings suited to different roles. But we only reward one role. I'm just asking to establish some balance. I don't think it's that hard to do.

Fractis Zero, on 26 July 2020 - 07:39 AM, said:

The longer you survive the more match score you acquire. If you run in and do 300 damage but die in the early stages of the match if your team loses there is a good chance that your PSR goes down. Same damage output and be one of the last to die good chance of = or +.

Mech choice is a big deal. If you are running around in a spider might be time to buy a meta.

Again, you're not dealing with my core assertion: light mechs do less damage than assault mechs. The leaderboard is all the proof that you need of that. What you're saying isn't false, it just doesn't address the point I'm trying to make.

[SharDar]

martian, on 25 July 2020 - 08:30 PM, said:

Well, all players had their PSR reset to mid-Tier 3 three weeks ago. Some players have moved to Tier 1, while you moved to Tier 5.

So, is not now the right moment for you to contemplate if you are doing something wrong? Nothing personal.


There are some tricks how to boost your Match Score if you are piloting a light 'Mech:

1) Be active. Do not follow heavies and assaults around the battlefield. The greatest advantage of light Mechs is their mobility. Use your speed and jump jets (if equipped) to find the enemy team, to spot, to scout and to flank. All these thing are rewarded with MS points. However, remember that your primary tools for MS points are your weapons.

2) Attack enemy 'Mechs. Backstab them, harass them - especially if they are alone or damaged. Concentrate on their vulnerable spots (rear torso armor, damaged sections are shown in red). You can join forces with other friendly light 'Mechs too.

3) Use UAVs. UAV detection can boost your MS, especially if you launch it in the enemy midst.

4) Use Artillery Strikes. Remember that if the enemy team is shaken and in disarray, you will have a better opportunity to get some kills and thus earn some MS points. Plus, it is fun.

5) Use UAVs and Artillery Strikes. Well placed UAV or artillery strike can significantly contribute to your team's victory and thus to the MS victory bonus.

6) Capturing bases in Conquest. You do not have to capture every single base - just make sure that your team will not lose on points. That's all.
Time spent capping means less time when you are dealing damage. Sure, you get some MS points for capping, but as you have noticed, direct damage dealing pays better.

7) Circle in Domination. Stay there 10-15 seconds until your lancemates (and the rest of your team) arrive. After that you can leave the circle and concentrate on killing enemy 'Mechs.

This is just a brief summary of things that I would recommend and I attempt to adhere. This forum has many excellent light 'Mech pilots and they will give you a better and more detailed advice.


If LRMs are a problem, solutions are not hard to find:

1) Use AMS/LAMS. All 'Mechs can carry one AMS. Some 'Mechs can carry two or three AMS. There are even 'Mechs that can be equipped with four AMS.

2) Use ECM. You will be more difficult target for enemy LRM-boats.

3) Have some cover handy (building, rocks) should you need it.

4) Do not attempt to brawl in the first minute of the game. Just wait until you know who is where and until the right opportunity presents itself. Many teams lose cohesion as the game progresses.

This is excellent advice martian! All of these are excellent tips for how to be successful within the current match score and PSR framework. I do try to do many of these things, but I'm still way TOO aggressive in the early game. While this is awesome advice, there is still a disparity between light mechs and assault mechs in terms of firepower and armor. But they have to compete on an even footing when determining both the match score and the PSR rating change. That's the issue I'm trying to address here. I'll do my best to follow your advice within the current system, and I appreciate the really detailed response!

[BTGbullseye]

Lockheed_, on 26 July 2020 - 07:43 AM, said:

Yeah I'd like to see some more padding for lights. I can easily rack up 700+ dmg in an assault or heavy, with a light that is rather difficult or prety much based on luck what map and team and enemy you get and with dmg being the single most influental stat when it comes to match score it's too much of a gamble to play lights IMO.




I actually tried to build a good LURM assault yesterday, going with 4 MPL in the arms and Active probe as well, also cranked up mobility and put on some JJs. I put 4 LRM15+A on a MCII. Worked out better then expected, but I still couldn't reach your numbers. Not even close. I only got to around a measly 500+ dmg average in the 3 matches I played. But I'm happy that at least I didn't drop in rank.

Give this build a try... https://mwo.smurfy-n...544ff6f4a8084c9

For skills:
1. Weapons tree, get all the dedicated missile and laser duration nodes, then focus on heat gen as much as possible.
2. Operations tree, get all cool runs, nothing else. (go through hill climb side)
3. Sensors tree, get all target decay and info gathering nodes, nothing else.
4. Consumable tree, single node, that's it. Run a UAV and Artillery in your consumable slots.
5. Survival tree, get as many armor nodes as possible.

You shouldn't need any jumpjets or mobility with the MCII, as it's going to move quite well around the battlefield with the other assaults and some of the slower heavies. You'll have enough ammo to fire at most anything you can get a lock on, regardless of whether you can even hit them, and still do about 1000 damage per match.

In this build, positioning and terrain knowledge is key to your performance. You do not want to be front-line, but do not bring up the rear. You have the armor to be mid-field, and use lasers occasionally, but focus heavily on spamming your missiles. Make sure you're firing the 20's together, and the 15's together so you can use the 20's to punch through AMS a bit easier, and the 15's once the AMS is depleted or out of range. You should have the heat available to fire all 4 launchers at once, but that's something to hold onto until you have line of sight, and the enemy is in heavy AMS coverage. You can usually get 15-20 damage with it through a 4x AMS coverage net.

Note that I ran this build during its prime, and it could actually brawl with a pair of Atlasses on a Conquest control point, and win.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 26 July 2020 - 11:04 AM.

[SharDar]

Horseman, on 26 July 2020 - 10:23 AM, said:

Pretty much. There are some stats floating around from a few competitive events that only cement this further.

Maybe not for you or for some others, but on average there is a big difference.

[Horseman]

SharDar, on 26 July 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

Maybe not for you or for some others, but on average there is a big difference.

Less of one than you think. Inexperienced assault pilots tend to put too much faith in their armor and guns and die too quick anyway.

[martian]

SharDar, on 26 July 2020 - 10:52 AM, said:

This is excellent advice martian! All of these are excellent tips for how to be successful within the current match score and PSR framework. I do try to do many of these things, but I'm still way TOO aggressive in the early game.

I know how difficult is to be patient sometimes.

SharDar, on 26 July 2020 - 10:52 AM, said:

While this is awesome advice, there is still a disparity between light mechs and assault mechs in terms of firepower and armor. But they have to compete on an even footing when determining both the match score and the PSR rating change. That's the issue I'm trying to address here. I'll do my best to follow your advice within the current system, and I appreciate the really detailed response!

So 10 minutes ago I took one of my 'Mechs to test how viable Light 'Mechs are and if my advice is worth something.



The highest Match Score of all 24 players, the highest number of kills of all 24 players and the highest damage dealt of all 24 players.

No stomp, but a thrilling game to the last minute. Just how I like it.

I would say that Light 'Mechs are still quite viable in MWO.





Quite nice earnings and some XP too. I am afraid that I scratched some friendly 'Mech accidentaly.





Arctic Cheetah "Shard" in my 'Mech Bay.





My Shard running at full speed.




I am sure that you will see your PSR going up soon.

Edited by martian, 26 July 2020 - 01:34 PM.

[SharDar]

Horseman, on 26 July 2020 - 11:51 AM, said:

Less of one than you think. Inexperienced assault pilots tend to put too much faith in their armor and guns and die too quick anyway.

It's not a question of what I think; it's what the metrics show. Did you look at the numbers from the leaderboard that I posted. That shows a distinct different in average match score between lights and assaults, even at the top level.

[Horseman]

SharDar, on 26 July 2020 - 12:37 PM, said:

It's not a question of what I think; it's what the metrics show. Did you look at the numbers from the leaderboard that I posted. That shows a distinct different in average match score between lights and assaults, even at the top level.

Thing is, averages do not say anything about balance. If you balance for the lowest performers then you will cause imbalance between the chassis among pilots who are merely mediocre and an even worse one among the truly competent.

[SharDar]

OK, last post and then I'll stop. Great match martian! I'm not saying that great outcomes like this aren't possible on a light mech. Nor am I saying that they aren't viable. I'm saying, that based on the statistics, it's harder on average to achieve the same match score in a light mech than an assault mech. Based on that fact, I wish the PSR would factor in the mech class as part of deciding how your results in a match move your rating.

The only other way to interpret the numbers in the leaderboard is that less skilled pilots favor playing light mechs, and that's why the average match score for light mechs is lower than for assault mechs. I'd be surprised if that were the case.

Edited by SharDar, 26 July 2020 - 12:54 PM.

[Alreech]

SharDar, on 26 July 2020 - 10:47 AM, said:

Personally, I don't want to ignore the game and just go for kills. I want to be a team player. I like to run around and cap so we don't lose. I like to go back and drive attackers off the base. I just wish I wasn't being punished for demonstrating team-centric behaviors.

I was the same once, and what do i get?
Bad stats, one of the good players was even so friendly to post them in this thread.

Quote

The current system incents players to ignore the game mode and focus on personal stats. And then people complain because we're not playing as a team.

Welcome to MWO Quickplay.
If you want teamplay drop in a group or go to faction play.

Quote

If we want to just see how much damage and how many kills you can get, why not just eliminate everything except skirmish?

Would be just consequent.

Quote

In fact, why not just make it deathmatch, where you respawn and go in for more kills?

Limited Respawns (possible in MWO via the Drop Decks) are not welcome.
First you can get stomped and have to endure all the time the enemy needs to kill all 48 Mechs of your team getting spawn *****.
Also respawns prevent you from rage quitting the match after get killed to spawn asap with the next mech in an other match.

Obvious changes (deadzones to prevent spwan ****, less spawns, less tonnage) are not welcome either...

Quote

I don't want to play that way. At its core, this is a team game with different mechs beings suited to different roles. But we only reward one role. I'm just asking to establish some balance. I don't think it's that hard to do.

Bad news, MWO is the wrong game for that.
Most players are pretty fine with the Solo Quickplay as it is and want no change. (just seperate the tiers more and make rising tiers more difficult and remove the groups from solo.... and all will be better....)

Edited by Alreech, 26 July 2020 - 05:06 PM.

[RangerS09]

So you say stomp is irrelevant until MM, well, your chart showing stomp right now is the opposite of impressive. I'm a little irritated at the fact that PSR is not what I want to focus on, but your new scoring method puts it front and center. The way this thing is set up, you can't use "team" tactics to get any PSR for yourself. I don't play to get the highest damage rate, I play to help the team first. But if I don't play to check the boxes on your new PSR rating system, I get screwed, win or lose. This is not the way to keep your members. Fix this system to not punish for moderate damage rates at least. This is getting ridiculous. What is happening here is that if you don't bring your own team to the game, your getting stomped.

[martian]

Lockheed_, on 26 July 2020 - 02:05 PM, said:

What do you got on the Artic Cheetah? SPLs and ECM?

ER Smalls, but I am still experimenting.

[KRZZPFFF]

Hi everyone,

just a few thoughts from a player which is not that good:
I have to admit I am a bit surprised that everyone seems to be contra damage at these times. If everyone on a team inflicts 500+ damage to the other team that would be really something they have to deal with. Also I never saw any game won without doing damage nor have I seen people going into fights without any weapons equipped. But may be that is because the system won't let you, who knows. Also doing damage in my opinion does not necessarily keep you away from playing as a team. Rather the opposite because If you just wander off alone the enemy team will probably take care of you bevore you can do a lot of harm to them. I have not been playing all the time since the PSR change but for me personally the fun in games has improved quite a bit. I think that might be because I am not fighting against Tier 1 Players all the time that are way too good for me. But that is only a good thing because I am willing to admit I do not belong in Tier 1 and also probably not in Tier 2. But I wonder if some of the recent criticism comes partly from people who think they are entitled to be in Tier 1 and actually just don't belong there...like myself. Currently I am about a thumbs with on the bar away from reaching Tier 2 and my prediction is that once I reach that point I will stay in limbo between Tier 2 and 3 forever (except I get worse, that's always an option, right?) because Tier 2 is too good for me and I am absolutely fine with this. Apart from not being torn apart constantly by superstrong players I also whitness less and less teams refusing to fight at all since the psr change which has been a problem before in my opinion. But as I said I did not play as much the past weeks so this might be a lack of data as well. Furthermore I wonder If it is really possible to write an algorythm that can measure teamwork as precisely as many of you wish because teamwork can consist in a lot of different situations and therefore might be hard to measure. Still I see that the whole damage issue might be relevant for light pilots because for obvios reasons it is harder for them to do tons of damage and also they sometimes need to to other tasks that slow mechs are not well suited for. May be the algorythm needs to be more specific concerning the weight classes and how they are rewarded. Anyway, that was my uneducated Monday morning rant. thanks for reading :-)

Edited by KRZZPFFF, 27 July 2020 - 01:33 AM.

[Horseman]

KRZZPFFF, on 27 July 2020 - 01:30 AM, said:

I have to admit I am a bit surprised that everyone seems to be contra damage at these times.

Some of us are not "contra damage" but "in favor of stressing efficient damage", ie taking out components (and mechs) and staying on target.

You can farm a lot of damage while spreading it all over and not meaningfully contributing to your team's progress, or you can be efficient and deal less damage but take out more of the enemy team's capability and make a substantial contribution towards your team's win.
But the scoring formula as it is rewards the damage farmer far more than the efficient killer, so the general consensus is that this should be adjusted.

Quote

If everyone on a team inflicts 500+ damage to the other team that would be really something they have to deal with.

The gotcha is that unless one of the more efficient team members was able to exploit weaknesses created by that high damage volume, zero or 500 won't make a difference to the game's outcome

Quote

Also doing damage in my opinion does not necessarily keep you away from playing as a team. Rather the opposite because If you just wander off alone the enemy team will probably take care of you bevore you can do a lot of harm to them

Yup. Focusing multiple mechs on the same target will bring it down faster than a single mech could, and leave less enemy guns pointing towards your team.

Edited by Horseman, 27 July 2020 - 02:33 AM.

[KRZZPFFF]

Horseman, on 27 July 2020 - 02:30 AM, said:

Some of us are not "contra damage" but "in favor of stressing efficient damage", ie taking out components (and mechs) and staying on target.

You can farm a lot of damage while spreading it all over and not meaningfully contributing to your team's progress, or you can be efficient and deal less damage but take out more of the enemy team's capability and make a substantial contribution towards your team's win.
But the scoring formula as it is rewards the damage farmer far more than the efficient killer, so the general consensus is that this should be adjusted.

The gotcha is that unless one of the more efficient team members was able to exploit weaknesses created by that high damage volume, zero or 500 won't make a difference to the game's outcome
Yup. Focusing multiple mechs on the same target will bring it down faster than a single mech could, and leave less enemy guns pointing towards your team.

Thank you for a specific answer :-)