642 replies to this topic

[Spare Knight]

Lockheed_, on 30 July 2020 - 09:31 AM, said:

It looks like that my sarcasms was a bit confusing, but I don't play like that. I merely want to point out what I'd have to do to just metagame the climbing in rank.
Lots of people worry about rank and that is my point. The system creates selfish behavior and rewards damage spam, besides punishing people who play supportive and are able to core out a mech precisely.
As I said before I am in T2 and I am happy there. I enjoy being queued with T1 players, but not have the lengthy wait times. I'll build some bufffer until I am at the end of T2 so I can play support/lights again, but I find it sad that I need to do that to not drop in rank and play in an environment that I do not enjoy that much. Support and precise shooting should be rewarded at least equal than running a LURM, MRM or RAC boat and just sandblasting everyone.

I am hoping that once the PSR settles out, they will tweak the Match Score Kickers, and help with this issue. One thing at a time though.

[GARION26]

Lockheed_, on 30 July 2020 - 09:31 AM, said:

It looks like that my sarcasms was a bit confusing, but I don't play like that. I merely want to point out what I'd have to do to just metagame the climbing in rank.
Lots of people worry about rank and that is my point. The system creates selfish behavior and rewards damage spam, besides punishing people who play supportive and are able to core out a mech precisely.
As I said before I am in T2 and I am happy there. I enjoy being queued with T1 players, but not have the lengthy wait times. I'll build some bufffer until I am at the end of T2 so I can play support/lights again, but I find it sad that I need to do that to not drop in rank and play in an environment that I do not enjoy that much. Support and precise shooting should be rewarded at least equal than running a LURM, MRM or RAC boat and just sandblasting everyone.

Got it I missed it also another poster had a similar point that I think was non sarcastic that I was also responding to.

I agree someone who is oddly fixated on PSR rather then wins may be incentivized to play selfishly, but someone working an event, or trying to farm C Bills quickly etc may also be incentivized to engage in actions that serve that goal rather then the win. Those unusual incentives are longstanding - this is just one more.

I think the odd edge case PSR rather then wins focused player is going to be rare -most of us just try and do the right things to win which largely gives us a reasonably accurate PSR for our skill level. I mean I get it there are a handful of players with that approach on the forum but it's a weird set of motivations to really go all in on 'I am willing to lose more games then I should in order to get into harder games where I will lose even more games then I should, just so my PSR looks better." While I don't need to win to have fun - most of the angst in gamers is from losing a lot. . . PSR over wins focus is going to get you more losses.

I think most players are just blowing up mechs and trying to win games and certainly aren't reading forum threads about the nuance of how this all works. That's probably also true even of forum goers

Edited by GARION26, 30 July 2020 - 11:52 AM.

[RRAMIREZ]

I've managed to go down from T2 to T3, and I'm really happy with that
Matches more looking alike what I call "quick play".
A bit sad there's only one viable queue left, mixing everything (competitive, farming, pexxing, weird builds (LRM IV4 oO), try hard groups, OneMechChallenge groups) but at least, I've found a place to have fun... again.

Hope everyone finds what they're look for, and keep the game alive.

[OneTeamPlayer]

RRAMIREZ, on 31 July 2020 - 12:58 AM, said:

I've managed to go down from T2 to T3, and I'm really happy with that
Matches more looking alike what I call "quick play".
A bit sad there's only one viable queue left, mixing everything (competitive, farming, pexxing, weird builds (LRM IV4 oO), try hard groups, OneMechChallenge groups) but at least, I've found a place to have fun... again.

Hope everyone finds what they're look for, and keep the game alive.

I'm ever so slowly on my way towards joining you buddy.

If I'm lucking I might break out of the shackles of T1 today. Losing rank (without breaking TOS) is time consuming AF.

[RRAMIREZ]

OneTeamPlayer, on 31 July 2020 - 06:10 AM, said:

I'm ever so slowly on my way towards joining you buddy.

If I'm lucking I might break out of the shackles of T1 today. Losing rank (without breaking TOS) is time consuming AF.

No consummables, no AMS and starting unpexed (I only use GSP for 60% radar dep, because getting lurms is too frustrating) mechS help a lot ^^

edit:
But yeah it takes some time if you don't want to screw up your team.

Edited by RRAMIREZ, 31 July 2020 - 06:27 AM.

[GARION26]

OneTeamPlayer, on 31 July 2020 - 06:10 AM, said:

I'm ever so slowly on my way towards joining you buddy.

If I'm lucking I might break out of the shackles of T1 today. Losing rank (without breaking TOS) is time consuming AF.

I guess so but then are you going to play 'normally' for you eventually? If so you'll climb back up.

Play the way you want to play normally and you'll settle where you 'belong' eventually. You can work actively to change PSR negatively by playing 'abnormally' for you (less well) but at some point aren't you going to want to play 'well' again?

[OneTeamPlayer]

GARION26, on 31 July 2020 - 07:09 AM, said:

I guess so but then are you going to play 'normally' for you eventually? If so you'll climb back up.

Play the way you want to play normally and you'll settle where you 'belong' eventually. You can work actively to change PSR negatively by playing 'abnormally' for you (less well) but at some point aren't you going to want to play 'well' again?

I mean if playing "well" means playing in T1 then i will gimp the eff out of myself for the remainder of the time I play MWO.

I never want to be in that atmosphere again.

[RRAMIREZ]

GARION26, on 31 July 2020 - 07:09 AM, said:

Play the way you want to play normally and you'll settle where you 'belong' eventually.

where you belong is one thing
where "quick play" (let's remind that it isn't supposed to be "comp play") is fun (in eachones standards) is another

[GARION26]

Sure I mean if you like non meta mechs (I do!) or say LRMS play exactly what you like.
As long as you are playing the way you want - you'll probably get the match score that matches.

If you running your best mechs puts in you in T1 - and you don't want to be there may be a good reason to explore less effective builds that are fun for you. Or just try and win games while minimizing match score - never take the kill shot for example, always just open up a CT and then back off to let someone else get the kill.

[Horseman]

RRAMIREZ, on 31 July 2020 - 08:08 AM, said:

where you belong is one thing
where "quick play" (let's remind that it isn't supposed to be "comp play") is fun (in eachones standards) is another

If you can't enjoy being matched with and against your equals, and instead feel a compulsion to play only with - and against - worse players than you then it sounds like you've got some serious problems.

Edited by Horseman, 31 July 2020 - 09:37 AM.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Horseman, on 31 July 2020 - 09:36 AM, said:

If you can't enjoy being matched with and against your equals, and instead feel a compulsion to play only with - and against - worse players than you then it sounds like you've got some serious problems.

The worst players to play with are being pushed into one tier and that tier ain't tier 5.

PSR has little to do with "skill" and everything to do with optimizing matchscore.

Optimizing matchscore doesn't make for fun matches for some people.

Should be glad to see players not enjoying themselves move away from any tier they don't want to be in TBH, better for everyone involved.

[GARION26]

OneTeamPlayer, on 31 July 2020 - 10:27 AM, said:

The worst players to play with are being pushed into one tier and that tier ain't tier 5.

PSR has little to do with "skill" and everything to do with optimizing matchscore.

Optimizing matchscore doesn't make for fun matches for some people.

Should be glad to see players not enjoying themselves move away from any tier they don't want to be in TBH, better for everyone involved.

I know you keep saying this - but again you can look at the publicly available leaderboards and sort them by win/loss ratio or match score. The folks with the best Win Loss ratios are people with very high match scores, the people with very high match scores all tend to have a win loss ratio over 2

Is match score a perfect measure of skill -no. But it tends to correlate very well with the main measure of a players group play skill - their win loss ratio.
Take a look at the fifth graph on this page I think that says it all
https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/stats


Put another way - there is nobody in the top 30 players for win loss ratio (all of who have better then a 4:1 WL ratio) who has less then an average 250 match score and that's including a number of 10 game players who could throw off the curve by being small sample sizes. This link should pull it up.
https://leaderboard....g/?o=wlr&d=DESC

Win loss ratio is the best marker for a 'skilled' player someone who gets the goal of the QP match is to win.
Now maybe there is someone out there who wants to make an argument they are an incredibly skilled player who just happens to lose more then they win. . . However I am not quite sure how they can make that argument.

[OneTeamPlayer]

PSR Ranking is not attached directly to W/L ratio and W/L ratio can actively be gamed simply by being in a group in a sea of solo players.

Literally nothing about almost any of the recorded stats has to do with skill at this point, apparently by design.

Between T1 getting dropped into the middle of T3 and groups and solo this game has no statistics that are worth anything at all, period.

Only thing that's left is finding where one will have fun and landing there for the rest of the ride.

Good luck to all on that front.

[RRAMIREZ]

Horseman, on 31 July 2020 - 09:36 AM, said:

If you can't enjoy being matched with and against your equals, and instead feel a compulsion to play only with - and against - worse players than you then it sounds like you've got some serious problems.

I can't enjoy playing the same match again and again and again and again
Maybe if you like that you have some serious problems?
(edit: I was wondering when it would come to get personal, even if I speak of [color=#959595]fun (in eachones standards) )[/color]

Worse player? it's subjective...
But by playing unskilled mech, I feel "fair" in terms of "skill" as PSR/MS defined... I don't search seal clubbing, i search fun game that I can't predict in 20s

Edit 2:
And it's not like I was a sooooooo good player that I rulez any T3 player ^^

Edited by RRAMIREZ, 31 July 2020 - 11:51 AM.

[GARION26]

Absolutely agree the most important thing is to have fun.

I'm curious how you think this video game should measure skill for matchmaker purposes.
Sure sounds like you think there is a better way to do it.

Groups pushing your WLR/PSR ratio up is fine - if a player has an advantage by always playing in a well coordinated group and their PSR goes up - the system is going to push them into a higher tier. Maybe that's more then their 'skill' on their own would deserve but it puts them where they deserve to be for matchmaking purposes.

Put another way put a skilled player on a crappy laptop with the worst hardware imaginable their actual performance may be less their 'skill' deserves but their PSR after enough games will reflect where they _should_ be for matchmaker purposes (somewhere lower then where their 'skill' deserves.)

Match score (and the effect Win loss has on match score) drives PSR - and the data (you looked at the graph right?) shows a clear correlation between average match score and win loss ratio.

[The Gooch 1951]

So there is still something off with the matchmaker. Granted, all of my matches have been in tier 3. I have been tracking how close my matches have been over the past 3 days. Out of 20 matches so far:
3 "close" matches with 12-9 or better
8 "lopsided" matches in the 12-5/12-8 range
6 "stomp" matches in the 12-3/12-4 range
3 "total domination" matches in the 12-0/12-2 range

Between the LRM boats farming damage/gaming the PSR tier system and just how bad the matchmaking has been MWO is really starting to not be fun anymore.

[Pz_DC]

I dont know what is going on those days in case of overall statistics, but today 90% of my games are "steamrolls", and it says that new PSR system already failed - enough time to split t2 and t4 players, but still see too many of t4 in t2 games...

[martian]

The Gooch 1951, on 31 July 2020 - 05:16 PM, said:

So there is still something off with the matchmaker. Granted, all of my matches have been in tier 3.
...

The problem with being in Tier 3 is that sometimes you get a lot of Tier 1 players in your team and sometimes you have a lot of Tier 5 players.

[Kalimaster]

Lets see. Win a game, still loose pilot value, slowly sliding towards the pit of doom in area 5, even with a kill and six helps, lots of damage. But then, that's with a light Mech. You don't like light Mechs do you....

[martian]

Kalimaster, on 01 August 2020 - 10:46 AM, said:

... slowly sliding towards the pit of doom in area 5 ...

Do not call it "the pit of doom", call it "the place where I will get more balanced games".

Kalimaster, on 01 August 2020 - 10:46 AM, said:

Lets see. Win a game, still loose pilot value ... even with a kill and six helps, lots of damage.

The negative change of your PSR means that you were not as good as other members of your team and the best enemy players.

I have had some relatively good games and yet my PSR went down even on win, simply because other players on our side and one or two enemies had better scores. So I know how you feel.

Kalimaster, on 01 August 2020 - 10:46 AM, said:

Lets see. Win a game, still loose pilot value, slowly sliding towards the pit of doom in area 5, even with a kill and six helps, lots of damage. But then, that's with a light Mech. You don't like light Mechs do you....

If I may suggest something, perhaps you should use some different weapons than LRMs. Or maybe use a different 'Mech? What about changing your play style, if your current one leads to PSR loss?