642 replies to this topic

[martian]

Damnedtroll, on 28 August 2020 - 06:45 AM, said:

Got to tier 1, got incredible losing streak doing so, with teams doing all sort of headless chicken strategy. Things will settle down now probably.

Probably not. The number of players playing this game is so low that sooner or later the matchmaker will have to open all or almost all Tier valves to assemble a game.

Damnedtroll, on 28 August 2020 - 06:45 AM, said:

Sad that the game is losing players but it have been there for a long time, and not a lot of upgrades lately... They got me waiting so long for my hatchetman, axeman and berserker package... would have paid for these packages.

I would love to see Melee attacks in MWO, but this is not going to happen. PGI said that a long time ago. Sorry.


If you want the Hatchetman, either play the real BattleTech, MegaMek or the HBS BattleTech:


HCT-3F Hatchetman

[Amerith]

I just wish they would fix their drop matrix. Getting real tired of seeing 1 or 2 assaults on 1 team and 5 or more on the other one. This is not gonna generate any happiness Paul, so please fix it or possibly see even more people quit due to roll stomps caused by this idiocy.

[martian]

Amerith, on 06 September 2020 - 08:07 AM, said:

I just wish they would fix their drop matrix. Getting real tired of seeing 1 or 2 assaults on 1 team and 5 or more on the other one. This is not gonna generate any happiness Paul, so please fix it or possibly see even more people quit due to roll stomps caused by this idiocy.

Russ Bullock and Paul Inouye have known about this problem since Day 1.

They have been okay with it so far.

Have fun and buy 'Mech Packs.

[crazytimes]

Sawk, on 04 September 2020 - 04:40 PM, said:

OK when are we going to see, the results, the bell curve ECT stuff, we have to be close or even past the 3 month wait, if no one ever ask, it may never happen, just trying to kick

My analysis is it's better than it was- but ultimately still grindable to tier 1 even for someone who is not in the top 20% by skill. Source- this guy. I did it by playing appropriate mechs and playing well- no AMS or LRM cheesing, but if i still got there anyone can. I barely break a 1 w/l and even my k/d hovers around 1 in recent seasons. I'm not great.

With a 3 tier MM I still see cadets, just have to wait longer to drop, which was always my concern. Unless it drops to 2 tier spread, there is no real obstacle to progress for most people. Given the people who are sub 3 seem to get really salty, there will no normally distributed bell curve, it will still be very heavily skewed upwards.

Again- better than it was for sure, the salt proves that, but still not perfect.

[Sawk]

well crazy i have to agree, but 1 thing is i am a very good shooter, and i have mechs to go up, it just takes longer when you have 17000 drops, and an average 170 match score, i have noticed its far easier to go down then up.
oh i have pushed my match score up to 240 or so--- but i have to average above 250 match score every night, and that is what takes time, remmeber who i am dropping with in TEIR 4, alot of guys who can not hit the side of the barn, at 10 paces. or folks running off solo ECT ECT ECT, then on top of that, my old BUDDIES want to kill me, not so often now, that i am so sucky pilot in tier 4.
him so if its hard for me to average 250 match score, 70% of pilots for what ever reason may never get out of tier 5 4 or 3.
i still think the new system is broken, but the ELITE pilots in teams love it, anyway almost done with tier 4, been getting some better matches so i guess i should just keep killing.
You can look at my stats on the leader board, or the jarls list now that folks say i suck so bad, hmm i should write a book LOL
Sawk

[GARION26]

Sawk, on 08 September 2020 - 04:59 PM, said:

well crazy i have to agree, but 1 thing is i am a very good shooter, and i have mechs to go up, it just takes longer when you have 17000 drops, and an average 170 match score, i have noticed its far easier to go down then up.
oh i have pushed my match score up to 240 or so--- but i have to average above 250 match score every night, and that is what takes time, remmeber who i am dropping with in TEIR 4, alot of guys who can not hit the side of the barn, at 10 paces. or folks running off solo ECT ECT ECT, then on top of that, my old BUDDIES want to kill me, not so often now, that i am so sucky pilot in tier 4.
him so if its hard for me to average 250 match score, 70% of pilots for what ever reason may never get out of tier 5 4 or 3.
i still think the new system is broken, but the ELITE pilots in teams love it, anyway almost done with tier 4, been getting some better matches so i guess i should just keep killing.
You can look at my stats on the leader board, or the jarls list now that folks say i suck so bad, hmm i should write a book LOL
Sawk

Hey man I'm not sure I'm getting your point but I'll try and address what you are talking about. As framing lets be clear I'm terrible and a pure Tier 5, but that given I'd suggest your stats suggest you probably should be around Tier 3-4. Average match score for all players is around 240. If you are averaging around there you should expect to be around there. Your August is better then your July but you've generally not been much above average.
https://leaderboard....g/search?u=sawk

Math doesn't exactly work this way but roughly half the average player scores scores will be above 240 and about half will be below. For folks with a below average match score we'd expect them to be in the lower tiers.

[Alreech]

Amerith, on 06 September 2020 - 08:07 AM, said:

I just wish they would fix their drop matrix. Getting real tired of seeing 1 or 2 assaults on 1 team and 5 or more on the other one. This is not gonna generate any happiness Paul, so please fix it or possibly see even more people quit due to roll stomps caused by this idiocy.

https://mwomercs.com...al-discoveries/

In Solo Quickplay the Matchmaker has to adjust:

1. Player Tier Balance
2. Match Maker Speed
3. Mech Tonnage Balance

for 24 players.
Choose 2, because you can't have all 3 with the 12 vs 12 Quickplay dogma.

Possible fixes:
Smaller match sizes: 4 vs 4, 8 vs 8, 12 vs 12
No option, because MWO Players need other players as meatshields (otherwise they would play Solaris 7).

Using dropdecks for Mech Tonnage Balance:
Would make the matches longer, instead of rage quitting after getting killed to grind XPs & C-Bills with the next Mech in an other match.

[TubbyToast]

Sounds like all "bad" players want to be in tier1 so why can pgi just put them all in tier1 and everybody would be happy

[D V Devnull]

Alreech, on 09 September 2020 - 09:16 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...al-discoveries/

In Solo Quickplay the Matchmaker has to adjust:

1. Player Tier Balance
2. Match Maker Speed
3. Mech Tonnage Balance

for 24 players.
Choose 2, because you can't have all 3 with the 12 vs 12 Quickplay dogma.

Possible fixes:
Smaller match sizes: 4 vs 4, 8 vs 8, 12 vs 12
No option, because MWO Players need other players as meatshields (otherwise they would play Solaris 7).

Using dropdecks for Mech Tonnage Balance:
Would make the matches longer, instead of rage quitting after getting killed to grind XPs & C-Bills with the next Mech in an other match.

If you're forcing people to pick only two, then it would have to be "#1 & #3" that I would go for simply because mostly nobody likes being on the wrong end of a stomp-type Match result.

Frankly, given that these three functions are shown to all be operating in a triangle-style formation, then all that PGI's Paul Inouye needs to do is to simply move that pin back to dead center, and it would very likely restore the MatchMaking Balance that most people want. There's ZERO need to hold back the valves from opening after about a minute or two, given all the problems that are caused by holding it back for longer. There's also ZERO reason to let PSR Differences swing about wildly, simply because we don't need some Player Skill Imbalance to pre-decide any Match that's played. Yet, there's equally also ZERO reason to allow these damned Tonnage Imbalances to continue on screwing any Matches which happen into one-sided matters. With how things are designed at this time, there's just no need to sacrifice in any department whatsoever, contrary to anything that's said and/or thought up, even with Matches being a 12v12 affair. We don't even have to start resorting to Smaller Matches and/or Quick Play Drop Decks in order to help fix matters either.

~Mr. D. V. "seeing ZERO reason to sacrifice anything in order to fix MatchMaking for everyone" Devnull





[Small Edit by Post Author because the Reading Flow was a tad choked in one spot, and a choice of Emoji needed changing...]

Edited by D V Devnull, 10 September 2020 - 11:44 AM.

[Horseman]

With any luck, enough people filtered to T1-2 and T4-5 that the matchmaker restrictions could be tightened back without losing too much matchmaking speed now. The +/- 1 tier restriction produced some of the closest QP matches I've seen in five years.

[D V Devnull]

Horseman, on 10 September 2020 - 11:46 AM, said:

With any luck, enough people filtered to T1-2 and T4-5 that the matchmaker restrictions could be tightened back without losing too much matchmaking speed now. The +/- 1 tier restriction produced some of the closest QP matches I've seen in five years.

Yup... also just a small matter along with it of making sure that the Team Tonnage in any given Match is reasonably equalized as well.

~D. V. "knows that Balance can never be perfect, but having it reasonable on Tonnage is better than not" Devnull

[TubbyToast]

D V Devnull, on 10 September 2020 - 03:36 PM, said:

Yup... also just a small matter along with it of making sure that the Team Tonnage in any given Match is reasonably equalized as well.

~D. V. "knows that Balance can never be perfect, but having it reasonable on Tonnage is better than not" Devnull

: tier5 kingcarb dies after 10sec´s in combat

[Horseman]

Yeah, player ability trumps raw tonnage. There's a few statistical analyses of comp tournaments that show all classes performing relatively close.

[GARION26]

Alreech, on 09 September 2020 - 09:16 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...al-discoveries/

In Solo Quickplay the Matchmaker has to adjust:

1. Player Tier Balance
2. Match Maker Speed
3. Mech Tonnage Balance

for 24 players.
Choose 2, because you can't have all 3 with the 12 vs 12 Quickplay dogma.

Possible fixes:
Smaller match sizes: 4 vs 4, 8 vs 8, 12 vs 12
No option, because MWO Players need other players as meatshields (otherwise they would play Solaris 7).

Using dropdecks for Mech Tonnage Balance:
Would make the matches longer, instead of rage quitting after getting killed to grind XPs & C-Bills with the next Mech in an other match.

While I agree with your general point on the fact multiple factors are being considered by the matchmaker it's actually also balancing a fourth now: Group vs non grouped players. At least as of a few months ago it was making sure both teams had a similar number of grouped players as the primary balancing factor. I'm not sure if the relative importance of groups has shifted since then for matchmaker.

So you've certainly got a lot of factors the matchmaker is working with and it's important to note how each of us players value those things is quite different I suspect. Someone else might be willing to wait 5 minutes for a perfect match on all three other factors, I'm quite happy to take any mix of group/tonnage for a 1-2 minute matchmaker as long as PSR is balanced. Those moments when I click the matchmaker button and I instantly get into a match feel like a real win to me personally though I certainly realize I just happen to be filling the 24th slot on a match that may have been only poorly matched on PSR/tonnage.

In my personal opinion PSR balancing (and the attendant linked likelihood of better skilled/built mechs) probably trumps most of the other matchmaker factors in terms of giving good quality matches ('fair fights.) A single tier 1 in a skilled up piranha is much more likely to swing a match then three tier 5's in trial assaults. Group vs non group matters much more if we are talking about a group of Tier 1s. A group of tier 5's probably pulls down the team performance by it's presence.

On the other hand I think excess wait time is more likely to be an intolerable issue for a fairly large subset of players (with each picking their own personal 'this is too long' point.) Would you wait ten minutes for a perfect match? Five minutes each time? There is a point for each of us but generally speaking long periods of staring at the searching for a match screen aren't fun just like lopsided matches are less fun then close ones.

Edited by GARION26, 11 September 2020 - 08:06 AM.

[D V Devnull]

TubbyToast, on 10 September 2020 - 10:42 PM, said:

: tier5 kingcarb dies after 10sec´s in combat

That's why we don't want to put 'Tier 5's against 'Tier 1's in any given Match played. That would definitely be bad, and is something that I can agree on our needing to avoid.

Horseman, on 10 September 2020 - 11:11 PM, said:

Yeah, player ability trumps raw tonnage. There's a few statistical analyses of comp tournaments that show all classes performing relatively close.

And I would bet Everyone & Their Mechs were all 'Tier 1' in the analysis, right? But I'll also bet the Team Compositions were also relatively balanced in Tonnage too.


So... (and pardon my getting into long sentences here) ... What we ultimately have to get PGI's Paul Inouye to help us achieve is a MatchMaking System that manages to reasonably balance BOTH any given Player's PSR value AND the Total Team Tonnage in any given Match that gets made & played, otherwise we're looking at continuing to have the unwanted stomp-type Matches happening which ruin the overall gameplay experience. Now please note (and keep in mind that I'm really not trying to go around attacking anyone here) that I'm just looking for "reasonably" and most certainly NOT ever aiming for "perfect" as the final goal, as I do think that it's possible for us to do better than what we have now, but absolutely don't have to take it to some crazy extreme point. Maybe I'm being way too damned optimistic, but I just want to see us all make it to there, instead of letting MWO end up dying and disappearing.


~Mr. D. V. "simply trying to make the MatchMaker better, and put the wrongful stomp situations to an end" Devnull

[Damnedtroll]

martian, on 05 September 2020 - 07:33 AM, said:

Probably not. The number of players playing this game is so low that sooner or later the matchmaker will have to open all or almost all Tier valves to assemble a game.


I would love to see Melee attacks in MWO, but this is not going to happen. PGI said that a long time ago. Sorry.


If you want the Hatchetman, either play the real BattleTech, MegaMek or the HBS BattleTech:


HCT-3F Hatchetman

I bough Battletech when it got online

[7 SINS]

The fact that we have a tier system at all is a luxury players of many other games do not. It definitely works better than before. Kudo's to PGI for making the change. Cadet PSR is straight busted.

I introduced the neighbor kid to the game last week after he had showed interest. It's great to see a new generation appreciate the game we all already do. I set him up an account, put him through the training, and he dropped his first match last night. One thing became crystal clear to me; we must put new players in the lowest tier. It is hard for me to imagine him maintaining an interest in the game getting wrecked like that every game until he drops in PSR enough. I've seen the little dude play other games. He can beat me in just about everything else. I know he would pick it up in time, I just doubt he will play long enough when matches are that overwhelming right now.

[RRAMIREZ]

7 SINS, on 08 October 2020 - 08:43 AM, said:

One thing became crystal clear to me; we must put new players in the lowest tier.

That's for sure
True cadets cannot be put against T1

[Spare Knight]

I get put into matches against Tier 1 players all the time. I have kind of gotten used to the beatings.

The Tier 1 players have no problem with it. They will seal club all day and all night. As long as their K/D ratio and W/L ratio goes up, they are happy to club the seals.

[Horseman]

Spare Knight, on 13 October 2020 - 04:27 AM, said:

The Tier 1 players have no problem with it. They will seal club all day and all night. As long as their K/D ratio and W/L ratio goes up, they are happy to club the seals.

Depending on the pilot you ask.
If you ask me? Getting put up against weaker opposition is equally demeaning to both sides. Neither of you signed up to fight opponents with this much of a skill gap, and it's not like you're given options beyond "fight through" and "throw the fight" (the latter of which isn't really a choice).

Edited by Horseman, 13 October 2020 - 04:50 AM.