130 replies to this topic

[Ghost]

A good selection of commonly-used websites (Google, Wikipedia) are currently "blacked-out" to protest SOPA/PIPA today.

[HappySpawn]

For those who have not already seen and signed, Google has this:

https://www.google.c...ing/takeaction/

Edited by HappySpawn, 18 January 2012 - 06:28 AM.

[Catamount]

Tarvitz, on 08 January 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Considering the sheer lack of knowledge being shown by the people who are making this vote, that's an unfortunate possibility. They don't seem to have a single clue about how badly this would effect them nor realise this would do little to improve profit in the entertainment industry. One reporter who was at the SOPA hearing last month summed up this act well:
"If this were surgery, the patient would have run out screaming a long time ago. But this is like a group of well-intentioned amateurs getting together to perform heart surgery on a patient incapable of moving. "We hear from the motion picture industry that heart surgery is what's required," they say cheerily. "We're not going to cut the good valves, just the bad - neurons, or whatever you call those durn thingies.'
This is terrifying to watch. It would be amusing - there's nothing like people who did not grow up with the Internet attempting to ask questions about technology very slowly and stumbling over words like "server' and "service" when you want an easy laugh. Except that this time, the joke's on us."

You know, there's a good point here that begs an important question that goes beyond the scope of SOPA.

Politicals are largely very ignorant of technology (see The Internet is not a Big Truck), which means the only people they have to turn to for information are tech industry lobbyists. Now, lobbyists aren't bad; their familiarity with industry means they do give valuable information that's helpful when writing laws, but they're also not objective, which means when they're one's only source of information... well, you get things like SOPA. In fact, in the past decade or so, we've seen a lot of really bad bills and even passed laws related to computing and the internet.


So with tech issues getting more and more important, and politicians decidedly not getting anymore educated, why isn't there a body to educate them? This is the exact reason the National Academy of Sciences was created, to be an independent, objective body that could advise the nation on general scientific issues. Wouldn't it be prudent to have something equivalent specifically for issues relating to the internet and computing?

Edited by Catamount, 18 January 2012 - 06:36 AM.

[Cattra Kell]

I find it funny that all the news companies, such as Fox News, are demonizing this protest saying its a waste of resources and helping the pirates ruin America and take American jobs. Oh god, and the comments on the articles are just so ignorant.

I also find it funny that if SOPA passes, as a Canadian citizen, I would by taken to trail by an american court system and law because I use a .com, a .org, or a .net domain which are, according to SOPA, "American domain names" because they are measured by region not nationality. This means Canada, Mexico, 20+ Caribbean states, or any person who has a .com, .net, or .org domain name is affected by this USA law, EVEN IF THE SERVER THEY HAVE THEIR SITE NOT ON A USA SERVER HOUSE.

P.S: I posted this on two news articles in the states (one may or may not be a FAUX news one ) and got called a communist and something about USA's manifest destiny... oh boy.

[Catamount]

Cattra Kell, on 18 January 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

I find it funny that all the news companies, such as Fox News, are demonizing this protest saying its a waste of resources and helping the pirates ruin America and take American jobs. Oh god, and the comments on the articles are just so ignorant.

I also find it funny that if SOPA passes, as a Canadian citizen, I would by taken to trail by an american court system and law because I use a .com, a .org, or a .net domain which are, according to SOPA, "American domain names" because they are measured by region not nationality. This means Canada, Mexico, 20+ Caribbean states, or any person who has a .com, .net, or .org domain name is affected by this USA law, EVEN IF THE SERVER THEY HAVE THEIR SITE NOT ON A USA SERVER HOUSE.

P.S: I posted this on two news articles in the states (one may or may not be a FAUX news one ) and got called a communist and something about USA's manifest destiny... oh boy.

Yeah, please don't conflate Fox News with "all the news companies" in the US; we do have some honest journalism here (actually, in fairness to Fox, the bar for TV news is a fair bit lower anyways; most TV news sources are terribad by nature, so they're in good company). Besides, present company thus far excepted, there are idiots on almost any internet forum. You can't blame the news source for the comments section!

[Cattra Kell]

Catamount, on 18 January 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Yeah, please don't conflate Fox News with "all the news companies" in the US; we do have some honest journalism here (actually, in fairness to Fox, the bar for TV news is a fair bit lower anyways; most TV news sources are terribad by nature, so they're in good company). Besides, present company thus far excepted, there are idiots on almost any internet forum. You can't blame the news source for the comments section!

Actually its kind of funny to look over Rupert Murdoch's properties such as news, etc on the articles of SOPA. He also called wikipedia thieves over this, its kind of amusing.

Also I know what to expect with Faux news, one of the reasons why I went to see what reaction I would get with a legitimate complaint.

[Kaemon]

Catamount, on 18 January 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

You know, there's a good point here that begs an important question that goes beyond the scope of SOPA.

Politicals are largely very ignorant of technology (see The Internet is not a Big Truck), which means the only people they have to turn to for information are tech industry lobbyists. Now, lobbyists aren't bad....

Normally I agree with most of what you post, but you lost me when you started down the 'lobbyists aren't bad' road.

There's a functional issue with the way lobbyists perform their job nowadays, which makes them 'bad' they are supposed to inform congress on the issues and bills so they can vote in an informed manner.

Now they mostly push their own agendas and with massive $ on their side, we end up with bills like SOPA and PIPA.

It's embarassing, the pure ego of it, like america owns the freaking internet, and everyone else is just able to use it at our convienence.

Seriously Anon, how is the RIAA website still up today?

This iscute:
http://riaa.com/news...ear_filter=2012

2012 The Year We Lost the Internet.

/breaks out the boardgames
//whooo ....monopoly.

Edited by Kaemon, 18 January 2012 - 07:33 AM.

[Fence]

Already contacted my Senator and Representative about SOPA and PIPA... I was ashamed to find out that my Senator co-sponsored PIPA.

[Kaemon]

Fence, on 18 January 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Already contacted my Senator and Representative about SOPA and PIPA... I was ashamed to find out that my Senator co-sponsored PIPA.

http://theoatmeal.com/

Ask him to look up something on wikipedia for you...oh...wait...

[Mason Grimm]

Cattra Kell, on 18 January 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

I also find it funny that if SOPA passes, as a Canadian citizen, I would by taken to trail by an american court system and law because I use a .com, a .org, or a .net domain which are, according to SOPA, "American domain names" because they are measured by region not nationality. This means Canada, Mexico, 20+ Caribbean states, or any person who has a .com, .net, or .org domain name is affected by this USA law, EVEN IF THE SERVER THEY HAVE THEIR SITE NOT ON A USA SERVER HOUSE.

Where is this information found?

As a fellow Canadian, and one who has a server based in Eastern Europe with .com and .org domains stored on it, it was my impression that as long as the server is located outside of US territory it is not subject to US law.

It was also my understanding that TLDs were not subject to specific territories (other than .us, .ca, .cz, .ru etc etc) so that anyone anywhere in the world could have .com, .org, .net whatever.

I heard of a case a year or two ago where a torrent website owner in British Columbia was charged by the US courts (since in Canada what he did was not considered a crime).

I find it deplorable that one country should wield that much power and sway over the governments and legal systems of others. It is my opinion that should something like this come to pass we will live in a new and global Big Brother State, controlled by a few ignorant and wealthy politicians of the United States of America.

Wars, whether physical or not, have started over less.

[Cattra Kell]

Mason Grimm, on 18 January 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

Where is this information found?

As a fellow Canadian, and one who has a server based in Eastern Europe with .com and .org domains stored on it, it was my impression that as long as the server is located outside of US territory it is not subject to US law.

It was also my understanding that TLDs were not subject to specific territories (other than .us, .ca, .cz, .ru etc etc) so that anyone anywhere in the world could have .com, .org, .net whatever.

I heard of a case a year or two ago where a torrent website owner in British Columbia was charged by the US courts (since in Canada what he did was not considered a crime).

I find it deplorable that one country should wield that much power and sway over the governments and legal systems of others. It is my opinion that should something like this come to pass we will live in a new and global Big Brother State, controlled by a few ignorant and wealthy politicians of the United States of America.

Wars, whether physical or not, have started over less.

re-looking for that article but its how the SOPA bill is worded that it targets "American domain names" which according to the way they are listed by region, not by nationality (unless .ca, .co.uk, etc.) would include .net, .com, and .org since they are considered part of the "American domain system".

I have been though about 50+ articles now, so back tracking might take some time.

Found it: http://www.digitaljo.../article/318059

Quote

Moreover, it defines "domestic Internet protocol addresses" — the numeric strings that constitute the actual address of a website or Internet connection — as "an Internet Protocol address for which the corresponding Internet Protocol allocation entity is located within a judicial district of the United States." Yet IP addresses are allocated by regional organizations, not national ones. The allocation entity located in the U.S. is called ARIN, the American Registry for Internet Numbers. Its territory includes the U.S., Canada, and 20 Caribbean nations.

This bill treats all IP addresses in this region as domestic for U.S. law purposes.

I guess I did misunderstand in my quick read but its still concerning because the question is that maybe .ca would be classified in that too since it reaches into Canada. The fact also stands that we would be subject to USA law for servers in Canada and people with citizenship.

Edited by Cattra Kell, 18 January 2012 - 08:23 AM.

[Catamount]

Kaemon, on 18 January 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Normally I agree with most of what you post, but you lost me when you started down the 'lobbyists aren't bad' road.

There's a functional issue with the way lobbyists perform their job nowadays, which makes them 'bad' they are supposed to inform congress on the issues and bills so they can vote in an informed manner.

Now they mostly push their own agendas and with massive $ on their side, we end up with bills like SOPA and PIPA.

It's embarassing, the pure ego of it, like america owns the freaking internet, and everyone else is just able to use it at our convienence.

Seriously Anon, how is the RIAA website still up today?

This iscute:
http://riaa.com/news...ear_filter=2012

2012 The Year We Lost the Internet.

/breaks out the boardgames
//whooo ....monopoly.

Lobbyists are like a lot of the people you find in Washington, useful people with their own agendas.

Having industry contacts can be useful, and in theory, lobbyists should be a good thing, but they do a lot of harm (and probably more harm than good) because:

A.) They're sometimes the only source of information being consulted

B.) Companies pay politicians huge sums of money (especially post Citizens United v. FEC) to listen to lobbyists over everyone else


C.) As a consequence of B, politicians getting paid to disregard anyone but corporate lobbyists put the concerns the business, which can be legitmate, above the overall concerns of the nation



That's why I'm advocating having better sources of information for politicians to cite. Not all politicians listen to the NAS, but just having them there, just knowing that whenever a science-related issue comes up, there's a huge body of experts who's profession is determining the science (instead of, say, benefiting a corporation), working Pro bono, from all fields and walk of life, who are there to come in and offer the relevant facts, that alone makes me feel a lot better about the decisions our elected leaders make, because while they may have their own agendas, and may not heed that information, at least it's there. That's why they were created, originally to advise Congress, but now to advise the nation as a whole.


Why don't we have something analogous for technology? We have a lot of really important questions to address as a society right now, questions of investment in information infrastructure, net neutrality, copyrights, trade laws, and experts are out there, but there's no independent body you can cite as an authority on these issues. All the experts are either very disparate, or work for companies that might not have the good of the nation at the top of their priority list. That concerns me.

That the groups most readily citable on these issues is often groups like the RIAA, or the MPAA, that really concerns me. That would be like having one of those state or national legislation pieces to teach Young-Earth Creationism in science classrooms, and having the only group involved in the subject who's readily citable being the Creation Institute. That would be frightening, and it's basically tantamount to our situation with a lot of tech issues.

Edited by Catamount, 18 January 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[Catamount]

Kaemon, on 18 January 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

http://theoatmeal.com/

Ask him to look up something on wikipedia for you...oh...wait...

A friend linked that to me earlier; great take on SOPA

[PelinalWhitestrake]

Fence, on 18 January 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Already contacted my Senator and Representative about SOPA and PIPA... I was ashamed to find out that my Senator co-sponsored PIPA.

The wallet full of money speaks higher than reason, i can imagine the sh1tloads of money put in the hands of senates to accept this law

[Alaskan Viking]

Adridos, on 29 December 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

So when I connect to some USA site next day, Americans will monitor my every movement?

That's right Adridos, they're coming for you.

ApheX, on 29 December 2011 - 12:47 PM, said:

This bill needs to be scrapped ASAP! I'm not a US citizen, I come from the UK. Even so, this bill will affect everyone in the world who uses the internet. I do not understand how the US goverment think they have the right to monitor not just US citizens but others outside the good old "land of the free" as well.

The issue, at it's core, is the idea of "intellectual property" which (according even to the ultra free market, uber capitalist, staunch propert rights supporters of the Austrian school) is a nonscarce good that does not exist as property in a state of nature and is in fact an artificial construct of the state.

A scarce good is a physical object, like a car, that cannot be used by mor ethan one person at once, if you steal my car, you deprive me of the use of that vehicle, these is why we have property rights. A nonscarce good is just an idea, or information, which can be multiplied infinite times for free, reguardless of who originates it. You can share ideas with as many people as you like, and if somebody "steals" my idea, unlike my car, it does not robb me of the use of that idea.

On the subject of the US government enforcing laws on other nations, it gets back to that idea of IP, if you can understand IP, then you can understand the US gov's motivations and justifications, and IF it was true, then the US government would have the right to punish the citizans of any country, because their actions ("stealing" of music, movies, software, device designs, etc) would be theft of US citizans' 'property', no different from that of Somali Pirates who go out and physically steal real property (scarce goods), or Pancho Villa raiding US border towns--the US government would have the right to defend its interrest and the property of it's citizans.

Of course IP, like a communist utopia, does not exist in reality, so the US government would in effect be declearing war for a crime that does not exist.


From Jeffry Tucker @ Mises.org

Quote

Everyone who is serious about ideas now has to deal with the issue of "intellectual property," especially given the advent of digital media and the state's war on the supposed violators of the intellectual rights of others. The situation has at once become very hopeful, with more sharing of ideas than ever before in history, and extremely grim, with the federal government pressuring every Internet-service provider to act as proxy enforcers of an unjust law — and twisting the arms of developing countries to adopt draconian, Western-style IP law.[1]

This debate, however, involves more than just IP issues. The discussion surrounding this topic has further clarified other issues, like the character of goods and property, the existence and centrality of nonscarce goods in economic life, and the role of learning in the evolution of society. This partially accounts for why the IP topic is so hot: it causes us to revisit fundamental issues over property, ownership, competition, and other areas we've mistakenly taken for granted. What follows is a summary of some fundamental ideas many of us batted around this summer.

http://mises.org/daily/4630

[Fence]

Kaemon, on 18 January 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

http://theoatmeal.com/

Ask him to look up something on wikipedia for you...oh...wait...

This made my day.

Also I had to lol because I looked HIM up on wiki to get some background info on him... Then wiki was blacked out.

I told him that and hopefully he reads my letter (although it'll probably be a cold day in hell before that happens). I laughed and was outraged at the same time.

Also yes, money does talk, but so do places like the ACLU and the Supreme Court.

[Kaemon]

Alaskan Viking, on 18 January 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

http://mises.org/daily/4630

I have a slight issue with this (and my wife, who works in an IP law firm is doing backflips right now but I'll refrain from posting her comments).

IP and a product of IP are different things, if I have an idea to make a movie, that's great, and I can share that idea with as many people as I want (and they are free to make their own movies, even with the same subject matter that I was thinking of).

When I go through the action of making said movie, hiring actors, camera men, gaffers (*** is a gaffer anywho?) and pay them, it's no longer just IP, it's a physical product (digital medium or not) and deserves to be protected in the same way that new Apple iToilet or whatever widget is produced.

Now, does that mean SOPA/PIPA is a good idea? ummm no, because it's based on misunderstanding, fear mongering and self serving corporations trying to protect an antiquated product.

Should countries like China that violate international (not just the U.S mind you) copyright law be allowed to keep doing it? Probably not, but there should be some sort of consesus on how to enforce these laws while being mindful of their countries'
rights and not going all Team America F*** Yeah on them.

(cause some day they're going to be making stuff too, and they'll need to protect it from, let's say, us, copying the cheebus out of it).

So yes we need intelligent enforcement of copyright/trademark rights.

No SOPA/PIPA is not it.

Edited by Kaemon, 18 January 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Fence]

Came across this earlier today and thought I'd leave it here... http://gawker.com/58...ackout?tag=sopa

My favorite has to be, "how obama expect me to finish dis homework when he black out wikipedia!!!"

[Cattra Kell]

Have a thread already over here: http://mwomercs.com/...pa/page__st__40

Also:
>Implying that Obama made websites do this by orders and they didn't volunteer to do this themselves, kids these days (its funny because I just heard someone in the University library freak out over this)

Edited by Cattra Kell, 18 January 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Caballo]

I always find this things funny. Here at spain a stupid with a political job (I don't know if you may call it "education and culture minister", but that's the way her job's called here) wrote a law about copyright infringement through the internet. You know, something very scary on the news and such... A month before the starting day of the law all the pages with links to download things moved to sweden, lituania, and she gained a lot of enemies, and the despise of all the spanish internet community...

Now thay are trying to do it from the U.S.A. to control the whole internet? Great move.

In the odd situation that the law becomes a fact, i'll simply call my ISP and tell them
- "Hey, because of that SOPA law, i don't need a 6 Mb/s bandwidth for 36 € a month, i just want 512 Kb/s for 6 € a month."
- "What?... wait... we're gonna lose a lot of money!"
- "Not my problem, ask the U.S.A. government..:"