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Stop SOPA



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#61 Catamount

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:41 AM

Building a bit on what Kaemon said, I would challenge the notion that intellectual property isn't a scarce good.

It's not a material good, but I believe that it is scarce. I believe it's scarce because you put X effort into creating intellectual property, and you get a finite quantity of intellectual property back for that effort, that remains constant. If I spend a year writing a book, that book remains constant piece of intellectual property without further work.


The rebuttal to this being offered, say, by the Mises Institute, seems to be that you can then take my book, and copy it, in digital format, for virtually no money or work, ergo, you're creating more intellectual property mroe or less for free, and therefore intellectual property isn't a scarce good.

The problem with this argument is that you're not creating more intellectual property when you copy a book or a movie. You're just taking the same intellectual property that already existed, and letting others make use of it, which is not the same as making more (hence the bagel example is a false analogy fallacy). Basically, the argument doesn't work precisely because it's not tangible, nor is it consumable, so you can't frame an argument by treating intellectual property like a tangible good (after supposedly claiming it isn't), and pretending that copying is the same as making more, because that logic only works with tangible goods. If I make a magical machine to copy my car, I hvae more car than before, but if you copy intellectual property, you still just have the same intellectual property before as after. I can scan my copy of Startide Rising, and make digital copypasta over and over and over until I'm blue in the face, but it wouldn't suddenly cause a new sequel in the Uplift series to spontaneously appear. The Uplift books are finite, they're scarce, because there are six books, and pending further effort, that's all there will ever be.



Given this fact, people are entitled to a return of investment on the work put into intellectual property, from each and every other person who uses it, precisely because it is scarce. It's basically a form of social contract between creators and consumers, and while, to make it fair, we put limits on copyrights, before which material enters the public domain, that return is still due.



This isn't some crusade by "the state", just a simple mechanic of how markets work, and the nature of intellectual property, the existence of which you can't just pretend away.




With all that said, SOPA and PIPA are not a solution to the issue of piracy. Even if they were, the price to society is too high, because even if they worked, we'd still lose more than we gained. Since they don't work, that makes them all the more foolish.

Edited by Catamount, 18 January 2012 - 11:52 AM.


#62 liqwid

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:44 AM

I would really like to blame Tipper Gore way back in the 80's but she has nothing to do with this. But it all started with her act she had passed and has just manifested over the years into this lovely controling act known as SOPA...

I guess thats what we get since her husband help create what became the internet.

#63 ENDMYSUFFERING

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:49 AM

This bill is ridiculous. I have to use Wikipedia for my school studies sometimes, reports and the like, and how can I do that when Wikipedia is shut down? And also, I didn't even know Wiki had anything pirate-able on it... I've seen tons of games on there with no pirate links, songs and music, too. So why shut it down? I think this whole thing should just be dropped. I'm going to have to take something large and important that the Jade Falconss have and blow it up in my anger. (/'O')/ |_|

#64 Catamount

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:58 AM

View PostFlametrace, on 18 January 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

This bill is ridiculous. I have to use Wikipedia for my school studies sometimes, reports and the like, and how can I do that when Wikipedia is shut down? And also, I didn't even know Wiki had anything pirate-able on it... I've seen tons of games on there with no pirate links, songs and music, too. So why shut it down? I think this whole thing should just be dropped. I'm going to have to take something large and important that the Jade Falconss have and blow it up in my anger. (/'O')/ |_|


Wait... wut?


Wikipedia isn't shutting down because been slapped with the SOPA stick, the Wikimedia Foundation closed the site down themselves, for 24 hours, to protest SOPA.



Also, while it defeats the spirit of what Wikipedia is doing, if you really need to use it, there's a way around the block they've put on their site: Just google search the topic, and go to the Wikipedia search result (which is usually near the top), and then just open Google's cached copy.


Problem solved

http://webcache.goog...lient=firefox-a


However, as I said, this goes against the spirit in which they've shut the site down, so unless you really need it for something, I'd say respect their wishes and stay off the cached copies.

Edited by Catamount, 18 January 2012 - 11:59 AM.


#65 Kaemon

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:58 AM

View PostFlametrace, on 18 January 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

This bill is ridiculous. I have to use Wikipedia for my school studies sometimes, reports and the like, and how can I do that when Wikipedia is shut down? And also, I didn't even know Wiki had anything pirate-able on it... I've seen tons of games on there with no pirate links, songs and music, too. So why shut it down? I think this whole thing should just be dropped. I'm going to have to take something large and important that the Jade Falconss have and blow it up in my anger. (/'O')/ |_|


And this is why we vote, kids!

#66 Sloth901

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:59 AM

http://www.youtube.c...u/2/WjOPXpd9PSU
some say its fake. Im not sure but one things for sure. Anon wont let this stand

Edited by Sloth901, 18 January 2012 - 11:59 AM.


#67 Cattra Kell

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 01:24 PM

View PostSloth901, on 18 January 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...u/2/WjOPXpd9PSU
some say its fake. Im not sure but one things for sure. Anon wont let this stand

Anon has been doing things for a while now, but anon its hard to say because there are so many splinters of it now its hard to say if this is THE Anonymous I knew back in 06, 07 and early 08 (examples here and here of the final boss of the internet AKA 4chan's Anon's), or the slight perversion which it has currently been doing nothing but and protesting anything and everything claiming ALL of anonymous is behind them.

Edited by Cattra Kell, 18 January 2012 - 01:26 PM.


#68 Elizander

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 01:24 PM

When dumb laws like this are made (for any country), it's time for some old politicians to stop getting votes and support.

#69 Armored Yokai

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 04:55 PM

i think its just a excuse for this SOPA — Suppression of Opinion, Politics and Activism please who would cover sites just to stop piracy. piracy can never be stopped unless something better was given to them

#70 Insidious Johnson

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 05:11 PM

S.O.P.A. and P.I.P.A. won't just affect the U.S. It's just the first of many dominoes. Check out http://fightforthefuture.org/pipa

#71 Miles Tails Prower

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:02 PM

The problem with SOPA isn't the anti-piracy actions, those are all fine. It's that the bill goes on forever and has a lot of loopholes that might lead towards political censoring later on.

People are going off the deep end with SOPA, the 1st doesn't apply to almost any website you visit on the internet. The 1st never applies to privately owned institutions and domains, that's why forums can censor the talk about religion, or politics etc. A lot of the people who are raving about losses of free speech on the internet don't even know that they didn't have free speech on the websites they were visiting in the first place.

The features in the bill such as being able to bar traffic with a website is just an option, people automatically assume that that is what the govt will do every single time every moment, they always assume the most extreme scenario. There are a lot of companies who have employee handbooks that hold a "2 warnings = eligibility for termination" but never use it. They do it so that they at least have the option to terminate an employee, it is the same principal.

A lot of the people upset about SOPA are just regurgitating rhetoric they've heard from some charismatic speaker and they don't do any research themselves. The actions inside of SOPA should have been done a long time ago, it's the lengthy word smithing in the bill that's the problem.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 18 January 2012 - 08:03 PM.


#72 Armored Yokai

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:13 PM

That what you think dude im not you but its your opinion and the sopa act is bad is my opinion

#73 Miles Tails Prower

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:21 PM

View PostCementblade, on 18 January 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

That what you think dude im not you but its your opinion and the sopa act is bad is my opinion


There's nothing wrong with that, there will always be 2 sides of the argument. I am just saying that people ought to do some research before they pick a side.

There's a lot of people who just listen to 1 person who sounds convincing and automatically believe that what they're saying is true. Like the people who listen to Anonymous for example.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 18 January 2012 - 08:23 PM.


#74 Armored Yokai

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:36 PM

OMG guys its the Anonymous guys (who hacked ps3 and basically became a villan but now they might become heros)


#75 Cattra Kell

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:42 PM

View PostCementblade, on 18 January 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

OMG guys its the Anonymous guys (who hacked ps3 and basically became a villan but now they might become heros)



Please see

View PostCattra Kell, on 18 January 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Anon has been doing things for a while now, but anon its hard to say because there are so many splinters of it now its hard to say if this is THE Anonymous I knew back in 06, 07 and early 08 (examples here and here of the final boss of the internet AKA 4chan's Anon's), or the slight perversion which it has currently been doing nothing but and protesting anything and everything claiming ALL of anonymous is behind them.

Also it was #LulzSec that did Sony, which is a splinter of #AntiSec


Edit2: "Team Poison" also helped on the second attack on Sony too, but they used a lot of back doors that #LulzSec left open for the hacking community.

~The More You Know From A Local D.G

Third edit and final one I swear:
This is the level of the current anonymous who were unable to know who Alan Moore was or state the real reason behind the V masks (because the books much different then the movies). TLDR; Current anon is because its a trend, old anon, hackers on roids ;) .

Edited by Cattra Kell, 18 January 2012 - 08:55 PM.


#76 MuffinTop

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:34 PM

I'm curious if there is anything on the books by the U.N. or other international law. If this passes , then what if this garbage turns into some sort of treaty. I read the posts here and I see some of our canadian friends are already asking this question. So what if this spreads, and becomes easier to enforce, and make extradition easier? This looks like another fine example of the dividing line between big business and big government disappearing.

#77 Fence

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:22 AM

View PostCattra Kell, on 18 January 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

THE Anonymous I knew back in 06, 07 and early 08


Man... Those protests were amazing... So many memories of Denver...

#78 Cattra Kell

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 12:35 PM

MEGAUPLOAD taken offline due to "claims of piracy" - Asked by USA to send the Hong Kong firm offline and take them to court from New Zealand to the USA.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...nology-16642369

Quote:

On Wednesday, thousands of websites took part in a "blackout" to protest against the Stop Online Piracy Act (Sopa) and the Protect Intellectual Property Act (Pipa).
Industry watchers suggest this latest move may feed into the wider debate.
"Neither of the bills are close to being passed - they need further revision - but it appears that officials are able to use existing tools to go after a business alleged to be inducing piracy," said Gartner's media distribution expert Mike McGuire.
"It begs the question that if you can find and arrest people who are suspected to be involved in piracy using existing laws, then why introduce further regulations which are US-only and potentially damaging."

Edited by Cattra Kell, 19 January 2012 - 12:36 PM.


#79 Catamount

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 01:45 PM

Interesting that Megaupload specifically gets hit, yet sites like Demonoid remain untouched.


I guess allowing copyrighted material doesn't get you into too much trouble, but promoting it crosses the line?

#80 PelinalWhitestrake

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 11:41 AM

Its Over, for now

http://mashable.com/...ith-pulls-bill/





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