42 replies to this topic

[OP8]

I wont usually start a new topic based on a reply in someone else's post, but I think everybody needs to see this statement as stepping stone #1 to the discussion of MWO's inherent strategy issue, instead of this statement being lost in a string of semi-offtopic replies.

Flanking isn't unique to MWO. Shoot and scoot isn't unique to MWO. There's lots of play mechanics on the periphery that aren't unique to MWO that could be added to this argument; but start here.

MWO's Nascar problem exists because of canyon network, and now annoyingly hibernal; and the phenomena becomes habit that then trickles into all the other maps with a central mobility feature. Hear me out, this is pretty specific.

All new players who are trying to learn how to exploit the terrain, or the process of strategic flanking, will spend countless hours being conditioned by canyon network to rotate like a flushing toilet. Mechs have to stay in motion to reduce the fire they take, and to chase enemies to attack them. Most mechs driven by novice pilots don't have jump jets and are regulated by the steep walls of the canyons, and are somewhat forced to keep moving to avoid enemies clumping up on them. Canyon network only has two ramps wide enough to fit 2 mechs side by side, and they function as a ratchetting device.

The ratchetting device works like this. A mech without jets walks up the ramp in either retreat or attempting to flank. Once at the top, if you need to stay in motion for whatever reason, you're almost forced to drop down a steep unwalkable slope that prevents you from turning back around. The map has two of these one way bottlenecks set one nascar lap's diameter apart from each other. After each ratchetting action incurred by each team, the terrain makes it nearly suicidal to try and engage enemies behind you, because many mechs' arm weapons typically assigned for point defense at that range, can't damage the mechs about to run up their arse from above. Mechs moving counter clockwise around the center can gang up on targets and stay in formation 3-4 mechs wide on a firing line. Mechs moving clockwise can only do so as a suicidal, single file turkey shoot in a narrow, predictable path.

Since the map is compact, easy to understand, easy to see daylight, without too much ground cover to irritate assault pilots getting legged by invisible lights in the bushes, it gets voted in with a higher probability than most of the other maps. Due to that popularity and ease to learn on, all pilots become conditioned to repeat that behavior on any other map where they encounter an obstacle of about a half a grid square or larger in footprint. It trains pilots to keep chasing to the left for increased odds of survival. Canyon network specifically programs all new players to nascar on any map with a large enough obstruction.

All that being said, when they released Hibernal, I was THAT MUCH MORE FRIGGIN annoyed that of all maps to clone, the chose the map that trains players to exploit this dumb strategy at every opportunity. Hibernal needed to be a mirrored opposite, so the inherent ratchetting effect could teach players that the left turn potato tornado was specifically not always a good idea; let alone impossible on occasion. Canyon and Hibernal both function like tesla valves that condition players to only flank in one direction of rotation, and despite few people acknowledging precisely why, everybody is intensely bothered by such conditioning as it contaminates every other map in some degree.

Reverse the ramps in hibernal, show players that both directions work and are necessary, give both canyon and hibernal at least 3 day/night/weather cycles, defeat the conditioning of ring around the A-hole.


(edit; 6th, I took your name out of the title, I wasn't trying to call you out in any way. I was just crediting that I was picking up the ball on someone else's topic directly)

Edited by OP8, 23 October 2020 - 11:56 PM.

[LordNothing]

i dont really consider nascar a bad thing. its good that players have a default to fall back on in lieu of an actual strategy. it sure beats standing around waiting for someone to use their mic or scattering to the four winds without plan.

[Monkey Lover]

Fixing maps will help but the main issue is balance.


Assaults were over nerfed and handfull of lights/mediums are too powerful.

[The6thMessenger]

I do get the idea of nascaring, it's the runaway flanking, where everyone tries to flank. It's also reminiscent of circle-strafing.

Nascar happens on other map too. I was in a nascar in polar highlands that isn't even on domination.

On a side note, you should just quote my main question, and use a different title. Being featured in the titled, by name, kind of unnerving. I'm not offended or anything, it's like being called out, or called by a principal, or when your parents calls you by your complete name.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 October 2020 - 12:20 AM.

[Gagis]

Its not the map, its the players. In competitive play Canyon is one of the best and most diverse maps in the game.

[General Solo]

I disagree with changing the map for novice pilots instead of:

a) Let novice pilots learn the maps and locations of ramps like all of us did if they want to be guid instead of giving them some artificial crutch.

Rather than nerf this and that, fix the root cause of most issues, MATCH MAKER so that new cadets who don't know the ramp locations play other new cadets who don't know the ramp locations rather than vets who know the maps blindfolded.

c) Yes people get conditioned, but the adaptable will be the winners, as always.
Pilots so easily conditioned weren't going to cut the mustard anyway.
We can't all be winners. If MM can stop making some of us lose 80% of the time due to large skill gaps, that would be great.

Looking at the wrong place totally to fix the games problems OP imo.

[martian]

The6thMessenger, on 23 October 2020 - 11:29 PM, said:

I do get the idea of nascaring, it's the runaway flanking, where everyone tries to flank. It's also reminiscent of circle-strafing.

Nascar happens on other map too. I was in a nascar in polar highlands that isn't even on domination.

On a side note, you should just quote my main question, and use a different title. Being featured in the titled, by name, kind of unnerving. I'm offended or anything, it's like being called out, or called by a principal, or when your parents calls you by your complete name.

[The6thMessenger]

martian, on 24 October 2020 - 12:08 AM, said:

Kind of like that.

OP8, on 23 October 2020 - 09:45 PM, said:

(edit; 6th, I took your name out of the title, I wasn't trying to call you out in any way. I was just crediting that I was picking up the ball on someone else's topic directly)

I forgot the 'not' on the offended. I am not offended by any means. But it just feels like when I am peacefully poking a dead cat on the side of the road, but then my parents calls me by my complete name. And I'm like "what the **** did i do?".

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 October 2020 - 04:22 AM.

[OP8]

Sounds to me that you all enjoy that this map design teaches new players a behavior that ruins a lot of matches, because it helps advance the sense of elitism by pissing off and driving out the players who "don't cut it" to your standards. Like instead of changing one thing so the pattern isn't so hardwired into all the rookies, you'd prefer that creative strategies be only reserved for competitive groups to exploit. I mean, I've got over 20,000 matches in this game where 75% of them, everyone complains how terrible the nascar habit is. But the really pure bred pilots enjoy that such a defect in game design lets them pump their stats at new player's expense. Check. As a professional mapper, I know that a game wide behavioral problem could be partially curbed by taking 20 minutes to modify 2 hills on one map, but the top 15% of highest skill players actually WANT the lower tier public matches to be as uncreative and tedious as possible. So no, don't fix it. Got it. This problem doesn't really exist, nascar-ring is built into the canyon tutorial as a beloved "feature". My mistake.

[The6thMessenger]

OP8, on 24 October 2020 - 12:37 AM, said:

Sounds to me that you all enjoy that this map design teaches new players a behavior that ruins a lot of matches, because it helps advance the sense of elitism by pissing off and driving out the players who "don't cut it" to your standards. Like instead of changing one thing so the pattern isn't so hardwired into all the rookies, you'd prefer that creative strategies be only reserved for competitive groups to exploit. I mean, I've got over 20,000 matches in this game where 75% of them, everyone complains how terrible the nascar habit is. But the really pure bred pilots enjoy that such a defect in game design lets them pump their stats at new player's expense. Check. As a professional mapper, I know that a game wide behavioral problem could be partially curbed by taking 20 minutes to modify 2 hills on one map, but the top 15% of highest skill players actually WANT the lower tier public matches to be as uncreative and tedious as possible. So no, don't fix it. Got it. This problem doesn't really exist, nascar-ring is built into the canyon tutorial as a beloved "feature". My mistake.

Look, not that I am being an elitist, but honestly if you aren't using the tool properly, you are going to get hard time. Same case with Canyon Network.



The green lines are good firing lines, the red crosses are where typically pools. Bring PPFLD weapons there, and they will barely know where the shooter is coming from.

I had good successes when properly accompanied by the team in a firing line there, because the enemy generally pools at the center, so staying on the rim, it's like a fish in a barrel. Problem is team does not follow through -- it doesn't matter what strategy you are employing, you are going to be roflstomped if your team is uncoordinated as **** vs a coordinated one, and QP is often the battle of which is the least uncoordinated.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 October 2020 - 01:08 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

OP8, on 23 October 2020 - 09:45 PM, said:

I wont usually start a new topic based on a reply in someone else's post, but I think everybody needs to see this statement as stepping stone #1 to the discussion of MWO's inherent strategy issue, instead of this statement being lost in a string of semi-offtopic replies.

Flanking isn't unique to MWO. Shoot and scoot isn't unique to MWO. There's lots of play mechanics on the periphery that aren't unique to MWO that could be added to this argument; but start here.

MWO's Nascar problem exists because of canyon network, and now annoyingly hibernal; and the phenomena becomes habit that then trickles into all the other maps with a central mobility feature. Hear me out, this is pretty specific.

All new players who are trying to learn how to exploit the terrain, or the process of strategic flanking, will spend countless hours being conditioned by canyon network to rotate like a flushing toilet. Mechs have to stay in motion to reduce the fire they take, and to chase enemies to attack them. Most mechs driven by novice pilots don't have jump jets and are regulated by the steep walls of the canyons, and are somewhat forced to keep moving to avoid enemies clumping up on them. Canyon network only has two ramps wide enough to fit 2 mechs side by side, and they function as a ratchetting device.

The ratchetting device works like this. A mech without jets walks up the ramp in either retreat or attempting to flank. Once at the top, if you need to stay in motion for whatever reason, you're almost forced to drop down a steep unwalkable slope that prevents you from turning back around. The map has two of these one way bottlenecks set one nascar lap's diameter apart from each other. After each ratchetting action incurred by each team, the terrain makes it nearly suicidal to try and engage enemies behind you, because many mechs' arm weapons typically assigned for point defense at that range, can't damage the mechs about to run up their arse from above. Mechs moving counter clockwise around the center can gang up on targets and stay in formation 3-4 mechs wide on a firing line. Mechs moving clockwise can only do so as a suicidal, single file turkey shoot in a narrow, predictable path.

Since the map is compact, easy to understand, easy to see daylight, without too much ground cover to irritate assault pilots getting legged by invisible lights in the bushes, it gets voted in with a higher probability than most of the other maps. Due to that popularity and ease to learn on, all pilots become conditioned to repeat that behavior on any other map where they encounter an obstacle of about a half a grid square or larger in footprint. It trains pilots to keep chasing to the left for increased odds of survival. Canyon network specifically programs all new players to nascar on any map with a large enough obstruction.

All that being said, when they released Hibernal, I was THAT MUCH MORE FRIGGIN annoyed that of all maps to clone, the chose the map that trains players to exploit this dumb strategy at every opportunity. Hibernal needed to be a mirrored opposite, so the inherent ratchetting effect could teach players that the left turn potato tornado was specifically not always a good idea; let alone impossible on occasion. Canyon and Hibernal both function like tesla valves that condition players to only flank in one direction of rotation, and despite few people acknowledging precisely why, everybody is intensely bothered by such conditioning as it contaminates every other map in some degree.

Reverse the ramps in hibernal, show players that both directions work and are necessary, give both canyon and hibernal at least 3 day/night/weather cycles, defeat the conditioning of ring around the A-hole.


(edit; 6th, I took your name out of the title, I wasn't trying to call you out in any way. I was just crediting that I was picking up the ball on someone else's topic directly)

Better game modes would fix NASCAR the multiple flavors of deathmatch make for NASCAR and that just not fun gameplay simple. Let face facts most game modes are just deathmatch with objective like assault or skirmish and conquest the strongest of the game modes is at least trying. The "flanking" is just bad game design.

Edited by SirSmokes, 24 October 2020 - 04:21 AM.

[Kodyn]

God I hope they don't take suggestions from this thread and go adding day/night cycles to any maps that aren't already plagued by that hot garbage. Gotta love getting a massive FPS spike every time cycle changes, even if you're in like heat vision etc. The coding sucks, they need to stop trying to make stuff prettier than they have the skills for, makes the game run like **** even on beast PCs.

No more new weather or lighting from these folks, thank you very fracking much. Also, Nascar is mostly our fault. Old Caustic was the biggest offender and I think where it all truly started, not Canyon. No one even started Nascaring on Canyon until much more recently in MWO history.

It's a player choice- most of MWO's player base are absolutely trash at gaming, having common sense, giving a **** about winning, etc. They go for the easiest tactic to conform to and rinse repeat. Maybe if PGI seemed to care, the players would start to care again, but this isn't purely about their crap map design, because the maps have been bad forever, but Nascar getting worse is a newer-ish thing.

(Yeah I'm a bit bitter after my matches this week showing me that T1 actually seems to contain the laziest, worst players, or the Tiers are a total lie and we're all in one pool. I have never seen so many trash games, trash players, trash gameplay by myself in reaction to everyone else's trash... Just one big steaming pile of **** and loss after loss. More jaded than usual lately)

[The pessimistic optimist]

Kodyn, on 24 October 2020 - 07:52 AM, said:

God I hope they don't take suggestions from this thread and go adding day/night cycles to any maps that aren't already plagued by that hot garbage. Gotta love getting a massive FPS spike every time cycle changes, even if you're in like heat vision etc. The coding sucks, they need to stop trying to make stuff prettier than they have the skills for, makes the game run like **** even on beast PCs.

No more new weather or lighting from these folks, thank you very fracking much. Also, Nascar is mostly our fault. Old Caustic was the biggest offender and I think where it all truly started, not Canyon. No one even started Nascaring on Canyon until much more recently in MWO history.

It's a player choice- most of MWO's player base are absolutely trash at gaming, having common sense, giving a **** about winning, etc. They go for the easiest tactic to conform to and rinse repeat. Maybe if PGI seemed to care, the players would start to care again, but this isn't purely about their crap map design, because the maps have been bad forever, but Nascar getting worse is a newer-ish thing.

(Yeah I'm a bit bitter after my matches this week showing me that T1 actually seems to contain the laziest, worst players, or the Tiers are a total lie and we're all in one pool. I have never seen so many trash games, trash players, trash gameplay by myself in reaction to everyone else's trash... Just one big steaming pile of **** and loss after loss. More jaded than usual lately)

They fix the Nascar with better map design and better game modes.

[Willard Phule]

One good way to stop the nascar is to get rid of those damned casual solos. Let's face it, until they get into a group and learn the map like the backs of their hands, all they're ever going to be is a herd of solos following the leader. Just get rid of them completely and FORCE everyone to join a 12 man premade team before dropping.

Sure, I know this adds a significant amount of time to the matchmaking process, but the only people it's going to annoy are those damned solos, and who cares what they think? They're only there for us elite T1s to harvest anyway.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 24 October 2020 - 09:12 AM, said:

One good way to stop the nascar is to get rid of those damned casual solos. Let's face it, until they get into a group and learn the map like the backs of their hands, all they're ever going to be is a herd of solos following the leader. Just get rid of them completely and FORCE everyone to join a 12 man premade team before dropping.

Sure, I know this adds a significant amount of time to the matchmaking process, but the only people it's going to annoy are those damned solos, and who cares what they think? They're only there for us elite T1s to harvest anyway.

Have you seen a doctor? https://www.mayoclin...es/syc-20366662

[Monkey Lover]

Willard Phule, on 24 October 2020 - 09:12 AM, said:

One good way to stop the nascar is to get rid of those damned casual solos. Let's face it, until they get into a group and learn the map like the backs of their hands, all they're ever going to be is a herd of solos following the leader. Just get rid of them completely and FORCE everyone to join a 12 man premade team before dropping.

Sure, I know this adds a significant amount of time to the matchmaking process, but the only people it's going to annoy are those damned solos, and who cares what they think? They're only there for us elite T1s to harvest anyway.

Truth is the 12 man premade was some of the best times I had playing this game. I havn't been in a 12 man in years and now best we can do is 4.

[General Solo]

OP8, on 24 October 2020 - 12:37 AM, said:

Sounds to me that you all enjoy that this map design teaches new players a behavior that ruins a lot of matches, because it helps advance the sense of elitism by pissing off and driving out the players who "don't cut it" to your standards.

How does it ruin games, one side wins the other loses, same as always. The side that plays better wins never changes.
And if they didn't win they didn't play good enough, nascar, lerms, poptarts etc

Dude don't blame players for PGI's treatment of matchmaker like a flea infested second class citizen. Thats on PGI not the players.

That players need to dumb down to accommodate PGI's matchmaking neglect is ridiculous.

If PGI did its job with Match maker, the elites who piss off would never have to meet the driven out the players who "don't cut it" to your standards. All demographics from casual to hardcore would be catered for and lots of money aka World of MEchs would of been made (Ok, moar money than was).

Instead small fry developer has their biggest hit, mismanages it by primarily focusing on mech pack monetization.

Putting Match maker in the too hard we iz Artists we not let techie tell us what to do MM basket.
Artists/Administrators making technical decision is not wise.
Basically feeding the larger part of population to teh smaller part another part of the population satiating that parts hyperactive bloodlust rather than do match making properly

Way to treat your customers mang PGI

No queue should have had matchmaking that was functionally open class competitive (or none) except comp queue.

Barking up the wrong tree.

And basically I'm over caring.

Only reason I play know are 30k's

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 24 October 2020 - 12:30 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will lose, nascar works every time...

[General Solo]

Willard Phule, on 24 October 2020 - 09:12 AM, said:

One good way to stop the nascar is to get rid of those damned casual solos. Let's face it, until they get into a group and learn the map like the backs of their hands, all they're ever going to be is a herd of solos following the leader. Just get rid of them completely and FORCE everyone to join a 12 man premade team before dropping.

Sure, I know this adds a significant amount of time to the matchmaking process, but the only people it's going to annoy are those damned solos, and who cares what they think? They're only there for us elite T1s to harvest anyway.

Yes, put all those filthy casual soles into their own queue I say.
So they don't infect the rest of the game with FUN, bad builds, Lore the list goes on and on..........

[xX PUG Xx]

Willard Phule, on 24 October 2020 - 09:12 AM, said:

One good way to stop the Nascar is to get rid of those damned casual solos. Let's face it, until they get into a group and learn the map like the backs of their hands, all they're ever going to be is a herd of solos following the leader. Just get rid of them completely and FORCE everyone to join a 12 man premade team before dropping.

Sure, I know this adds a significant amount of time to the matchmaking process, but the only people it's going to annoy are those damned solos, and who cares what they think? They're only there for us elite T1s to harvest anyway.

I know most of that is sarcasm but the idea that "elite" T1 teams don't Nascar is hysterical at best, they are probably the most prevalent users of the "tactic" that I have seen. Over the last few days I've been playing from 10-11am through to 10-11pm and every time there is a group of players, even some of the best in the game, it is an instant Nascar race. There are no tactics, no straight firefights, not even what could be considered a fun brawl. Just an incessant run to the right at start, get to the tail of the enemy line and rotate left. Ad-infinitum until one team is dead.

It is frustratingly, mind-numbingly boring and I can guarantee one of the biggest turn offs for any new player. Hell, as a long time player of the game it is succeeding in making me want to stop playing once again.

Yes, most of the maps have central focal points which lend themselves to this but we, as players of those maps can choose where to play on them. If there are no tactical reasons to head straight to the centre, then we can choose where to fight on any map. Therefore the design of the map is only partially to blame and it's us, as the players on those maps, that are the prime instigators and perpetuators of the whole thing. We CHOOSE to Nascar and then come whine about it on the forums.

Personally, I'm just going to run stealth/ECM'Mechs and ignore the lot of you