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Sensor And Lock-On Missile Revamp Proposal


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#1 Nightbird

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 10:53 AM

I'll keep the proposal short, please read the discussion to see the intended effects. All effects are programmed in game, so minor tweaks are needed to implement it.

Sensor:
1. All mechs come with standard EW package, which limits detection from standard sensors to 800m range. This equipment does not put nearby mechs into low signal or protect allies, it is simply considered "normal".
2. The standard EW equipment is affected by the ECM skill tree nodes
3. Lower ECM skill node effect to ~30-35%, boost ECM equipment effect, so that max ECM effect range is unchanged


Lock-on Missile Weapons:
1. 0 lock-on time, when you mouse over a target (direct or indirect lock), you get instant lock and can fire (buff)
2. LRM/ATM/SSRM travel speed reduced by 30-40% (buff still as lock + travel time is reduced overall)
3. LRM/ATM/SSRM missile heath reduced by 20-30% (nerf)
4. LRM/ATM/SSRM spread increased by 50-100% if target is under the effect of ECM (neutral since no ECM lock on penalty anymore)
5. Streak SRM changed to use ATM flight model (still no need to maintain lock, can enable dumbfire but don't hold your breath)
6. Streak SRM will use spread mechanic, with spread tweaks so that all missiles will hit an Atla's 3 torsos square on, but only 50% of missiles will hit a flea or piranha.

Discussion:
1. Allowing all mechs to use ECM skill nodes is both true to lore (all mechs did come with EW) and is also a counter to sensor range skill nodes should you invest in it. (more changes would be better here, but I'm trying to keep this suggestion a simple XML tweak)
2. Removing the lock-on time is to make missile weapons easier to fire up close (read less frustrating), and can be used to trade shots from cover, this is to encourage people to move up with the team
3. Reducing the missile velocity means that it's easier to dodge missiles (or be forced into cover faster, depending on perspective), and to balance out the buff of no lock-on time (3s lock time + 4 second missile flight time today versus 0 s lock time and 5.6s missile flight time is still a buff)
4. AMS being made more powerful through nerfing of missile health is also to counter the buff from not needing lock-on time.
5. If lock-on time is removed, the ECM protection effect is changed to spread, something we know can be changed dynamically on missile launch through the LRM trajectory update
6. Streak flight change is a tweak to be less OP against lights and more effective against assaults
7. Skill floor is lowered because you do not need to wait a long time for a lock, giving you more chances to fire
8. Skill ceiling is raised because while you have more opportunities to fire, the missiles are easier to counter, so you have to learn WHEN to fire to score hits
9. Skill ceiling is raised in that you can trade with LRMs in LOS against direct fire weapons
10. Eventually, you learn that indirect locks don't give you enough information to accurately lob missiles, and being in LOS yourself is the most sure way to earn damage, though doing both is fine and leads to LRMs performing on par with direct fire
11. Removing lock time is critical to being able to pair lock-on missiles with other weapons with some degree of effectiveness
12. TL:DR: These changes narrow the gap between lock-ons and direct fire weapons, without moving the power level, and enabling a smoother transition for those dependent on indirect-fire today.

Edited by Nightbird, 26 October 2020 - 07:56 AM.


#2 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 10:58 AM

That would just make lock on weapon useless they don't need changing. Unless that's is the idea?

Edited by SirSmokes, 25 October 2020 - 10:59 AM.


#3 Nightbird

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:04 AM

View PostSirSmokes, on 25 October 2020 - 10:58 AM, said:

That would just make lock on weapon useless they don't need changing. Unless that's is the idea?


It's a buff if you run close with your team and a nerf if you are far behind them. From your response, you're the latter?

#4 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:06 AM

View PostNightbird, on 25 October 2020 - 11:04 AM, said:

It's a buff if you run close with your team and a nerf if you are far behind them. From your response, you're the latter?


There fine as is and they already work great if yea run with your team no need to change.

#5 Nightbird

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:12 AM

View PostSirSmokes, on 25 October 2020 - 11:06 AM, said:

There fine as is and they already work great if yea run with your team no need to change.


Well, if you think they work great, great. I know a lot of people who would disagree. They'll say that the lock time means at close range, their missiles won't get to the target before the team kills them. That someone under ECM takes forever to get a lock on. That seeing a light at 300 meters means you don't get to shoot before they get under min range. That they can't even get a lock on people trading from a building before they are back in cover. This revamp buffs LRMs in all those situations.

The only balance to all these buffs is allowing AMS to be more effective. Which most people don't bring anyways.

#6 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:18 AM

View PostNightbird, on 25 October 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

Well, if you think they work great, great. I know a lot of people who would disagree. They'll say that the lock time means at close range, their missiles won't get to the target before the team kills them. That someone under ECM takes forever to get a lock on. That seeing a light at 300 meters means you don't get to shoot before they get under min range. That they can't even get a lock on people trading from a building before they are back in cover. This revamp buffs LRMs in all those situations.

The only balance to all these buffs is allowing AMS to be more effective. Which most people don't bring anyways.


I always fire before I get a lock on

#7 Nightbird

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:20 AM

View PostSirSmokes, on 25 October 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

I always fire before I get a lock on


Great quote, I'm sure all LRM and ATM users will respect your opinions now.

#8 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:20 AM

View PostNightbird, on 25 October 2020 - 11:20 AM, said:

Great quote, I'm sure all LRM and ATM users will respect your opinions now.


I don't care what anyone's option is truly grew out of that

Edited by SirSmokes, 25 October 2020 - 11:21 AM.


#9 thievingmagpi

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:21 AM

Increase lrm/atm heat and/or ghost heat.

Reduce ATM velocity.

Reduce effectiveness of target decay.

Remove lockon retention when crosshairs are not over mech.

Easy.

#10 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:22 AM

View Postthievingmagpi, on 25 October 2020 - 11:21 AM, said:

Increase lrm/atm heat and/or ghost heat.

Reduce ATM velocity.

Reduce effectiveness of target decay.

Remove lockon retention when crosshairs are not over mech.

Easy.


Because I say so no other reason

#11 thievingmagpi

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:23 AM

Aiming is hard.

#12 Nightbird

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:23 AM

View Postthievingmagpi, on 25 October 2020 - 11:21 AM, said:

Increase lrm/atm heat and/or ghost heat.

Reduce ATM velocity.

Reduce effectiveness of target decay.

Remove lockon retention when crosshairs are not over mech.

Easy.


A bunch of nerfs for terrible weapon systems?

#13 thievingmagpi

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:25 AM

View PostNightbird, on 25 October 2020 - 11:23 AM, said:

A bunch of nerfs for terrible weapon systems?


Ah yes, nerfs.

#14 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 11:25 AM

View Postthievingmagpi, on 25 October 2020 - 11:23 AM, said:

Aiming is hard.


I not one trying hard here ;)

#15 dario03

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 12:20 PM

I think I would be okay with something like that (streak changes are similar to what I've been asking for). Maybe not those exact numbers, but just some tweaks. Like instead of 0 lock on time, just a bit faster and then a bit less nerfs to some of the listed changes.

Edited by dario03, 25 October 2020 - 12:21 PM.


#16 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 12:29 PM

View Postdario03, on 25 October 2020 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think I would be okay with something like that (streak changes are similar to what I've been asking for). Maybe not those exact numbers, but just some tweaks. Like instead of 0 lock on time, just a bit faster and then a bit less nerfs to some of the listed changes.


Oh there fine no changes needed

#17 Nightbird

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 01:35 PM

View Postdario03, on 25 October 2020 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think I would be okay with something like that (streak changes are similar to what I've been asking for). Maybe not those exact numbers, but just some tweaks. Like instead of 0 lock on time, just a bit faster and then a bit less nerfs to some of the listed changes.


Sure, tweak as needed. Hopefully the big picture of what I'm imagining gets across.

#18 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 01:38 PM

View PostNightbird, on 25 October 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

Sure, tweak as needed. Hopefully the big picture of what I'm imagining gets across.


Why are we changing any of this? I am confused? What the problem we are fixing?

#19 dario03

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 01:50 PM

View PostNightbird, on 25 October 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

Sure, tweak as needed. Hopefully the big picture of what I'm imagining gets across.

Yeah I see what you're going for. I could see something like it working as an easy to do change. Though like I said in the other lrm thread, I would like to see bigger changes. Something that puts more skill based performance into the weapon. So stuff like spread based on how well you held the lock on center, or let you target a component but if you do a poor job of holding that component the spread goes everywhere.

#20 Nightbird

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Posted 25 October 2020 - 02:15 PM

View Postdario03, on 25 October 2020 - 01:50 PM, said:

Yeah I see what you're going for. I could see something like it working as an easy to do change. Though like I said in the other lrm thread, I would like to see bigger changes. Something that puts more skill based performance into the weapon. So stuff like spread based on how well you held the lock on center, or let you target a component but if you do a poor job of holding that component the spread goes everywhere.


Yep. If that is on the table, being able to lock onto components for a tight spread shot would be awesome!





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