93 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

D A T A, on 02 November 2020 - 02:47 PM, said:

you can doubt as much as you want, you are not a surgeon, it means that if a surgeon tells you that your opinions on surgery are wrong, you are wrong, easy

And you are a surgeon in this analogy? What are you aiming to achieve by being a condescending ***** here, dude?

[Y E O N N E]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 November 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

And you are a surgeon in this analogy? What are you aiming to achieve by being a condescending ***** here, dude?

He is the surgeon, actually, given that he was/is on one of the best teams in MWO.

My suggestions on Page 1 are not made from a competitive nerf/buff point of view but rather from a broad "lol this would be pretty fun" point of view. In the strictest terms of what is and is not viable to win the game when everybody is playing at 10/10ths, the C-ERPPC is the best PPC for all the reasons I explained in that same post. It doesn't NEED a buff to be good. That being said, being good and being fun to use are not mutually inclusive.

[The6thMessenger]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 November 2020 - 01:30 PM, said:

How relavent is the cERPPC being current meta top comp level OP ggclose since 2017?

The comp environment has nothing in common with the game environment the average player inhabits. The weapon isn't fun to use, occupies an already filled niche, and doesn't do much in the hands of an average player. It's also been pointed out that a cooldown reduction doesn't do much to benefit the cERPPC boats that use the weapon in competitive environments.

Dude, Comp has the same balance as in QP. Chances are, if it works on comp -- as in the guys who knows how the game works better than anyone else, it'll work on every level.

CERPPCs is also the best PPC, considering that it's light-weight and deals typically the same damage as with HPPC. Splashed sure, but with it still softening up the mech, it's still a win. Couple that with the ability to stack DHS better, a Clan PPC Poptarter would just do better, and can do it lighter.

The CERPPC could also be used more than just some poptarting build, it also fills something like 2x UAC10 + ERPPC, that is prevalent on Vanguard builds which is quite effective.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 02 November 2020 - 04:38 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Miss Greene, on 02 November 2020 - 04:24 PM, said:

He is the surgeon, actually, given that he was/is on one of the best teams in MWO.

Yeah, I noticed his badge. 2nd place in the Championships right?

But it could come out of Heim's mouth for all that I care. Still no reason to be rude. I might not know how to play the game at the championship level, but I'm not clueless or talking out of my rear-end. I've played enough MWO from tiers 3 to 1 to know how the PUG queue behaves across a large enough cross-section of the game.

Maybe I'm under-estimating how useful the cERPPC is at the competitive level, I'm not experienced in that field, I don't enjoy competitive play. The cERPPC certainly not useful for what I used to use it for anymore, and I don't see a lot of cERPPC mechs walking away with top score these days in quick play.

But I'll eat my words. Mr. Surgeon says the cERPPC is super-meta in the hands of a professional, then I guess it is. But I don't really think maximizing balance at the championship level is the right standard by which to go about tweaking weapons for a better player experience. Most of the player base isn't in the comp queue, I don't see enough PPC use in quick play to suggest PGI needs to tread especially carefully with adjusting its stats, and in my personal experience it's not a very fun weapon to use in it's current state.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 02 November 2020 - 05:10 PM.

[dario03]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 November 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

Yeah, I noticed his badge. 2nd place in the Championships right?

But it could come out of Heim's mouth for all that I care. Still no reason to be rude. I might not know how to play the game at the championship level, but I'm not clueless or talking out of my rear-end. I've played enough MWO from tiers 3 to 1 to know how the PUG queue behaves across a large enough cross-section of the game.

Maybe I'm under-estimating how useful the cERPPC is at the competitive level, I'm not experienced in that field, I don't enjoy competitive play. The cERPPC certainly not useful for what I used to use it for anymore, and I don't see a lot of cERPPC mechs walking away with top score these days in quick play.

But I'll eat my words. Mr. Surgeon says the cERPPC is super-meta in the hands of a professional, then I guess it is. But I don't really think maximizing balance at the championship level is the right standard by which to go about tweaking weapons for a better player experience. Most of the player base isn't in the comp queue, I don't see enough PPC use in quick play to suggest PGI needs to tread especially carefully with adjusting its stats, and in my personal experience it's not a very fun weapon to use in it's current state.

A lot of the cerppc builds that work in comp will work in qp/fp too. You can top the scoreboard with them too. Its not as likely to happen since match score is heavily damage based and its a bit easier to do damage with dakka. Also if done well you will be doing more focused fired with ppc so the ppc build damage per kill might be lower. But you can actually still do good damage in a ppc mech.

[Brauer]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 November 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

Yeah, I noticed his badge. 2nd place in the Championships right?

But it could come out of Heim's mouth for all that I care. Still no reason to be rude. I might not know how to play the game at the championship level, but I'm not clueless or talking out of my rear-end. I've played enough MWO from tiers 3 to 1 to know how the PUG queue behaves across a large enough cross-section of the game.

Maybe I'm under-estimating how useful the cERPPC is at the competitive level, I'm not experienced in that field, I don't enjoy competitive play. The cERPPC certainly not useful for what I used to use it for anymore, and I don't see a lot of cERPPC mechs walking away with top score these days in quick play.

But I'll eat my words. Mr. Surgeon says the cERPPC is super-meta in the hands of a professional, then I guess it is. But I don't really think maximizing balance at the championship level is the right standard by which to go about tweaking weapons for a better player experience. Most of the player base isn't in the comp queue, I don't see enough PPC use in quick play to suggest PGI needs to tread especially carefully with adjusting its stats, and in my personal experience it's not a very fun weapon to use in it's current state.

I see plenty of CERPPC Veagles in QP and while it isn't the easiest mech to farm in it also isn't THAT difficult to score top damage in one. I've got plenty of matches that attest to that. CERPPCs are quite useful in QP.

[w0qj]

From a newer MWO player, PPC (or ERPPC) is an all-or-nothing kind of weapon.
ie: Either you hit your enemy, or you don't.

And good luck hitting another player 500m away walking across your screen,
because anything faster than an Assault would be very difficult to hit.
At least with lasers, you can adjust your aim if it's off!

I tend to avoid PPC like the plague, until my lag shooting becomes elite (if ever).

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 November 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

...Most of the player base isn't in the comp queue, I don't see enough PPC use in quick play to suggest PGI needs to tread especially carefully with adjusting its stats, and in my personal experience it's not a very fun weapon to use in it's current state.

[Y E O N N E]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 November 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

But I'll eat my words. Mr. Surgeon says the cERPPC is super-meta in the hands of a professional, then I guess it is. But I don't really think maximizing balance at the championship level is the right standard by which to go about tweaking weapons for a better player experience. Most of the player base isn't in the comp queue, I don't see enough PPC use in quick play to suggest PGI needs to tread especially carefully with adjusting its stats, and in my personal experience it's not a very fun weapon to use in it's current state.

Balance from the top-down is absolutely the way to do it. That does not mean that there is only one way to balance stuff from the top down, it just means that for any adjustment you make to one thing, everything else needs to be scrutinized and tweaked to account for the change.

I see tons of PPC use in QP. Most of the 'Mechs I favor in QP have PPCs of some sort on them because few things in MWO are as satisfying as nailing your shots on fast targets with projectile weapons. I legged a Flea from ~1300 meters away with an ERPPC blast the other day. Instantly legged, finished off in the follow-up shot.

[UnPh4ZeD]

I primary ERPPCs in QP because it's a satisfying weapon system to use, forces me to hit shots, and allows me slightly more time to react to either my teams terrible positioning or my own. They're in a good place. No buff/nerf necessary.

[D A T A]

It all comes back to what i always thought.
People have no idea what they talk about because they don't know how to build mechs.

Deathstrike 2cerppc+2uac10
Warhawk prime or whm IIC or mad cat 1 with 4cerppc
Veagle 3cerppc

Use these and you change idea on cerppcs

[The6thMessenger]

Brauer, on 02 November 2020 - 06:27 PM, said:

I see plenty of CERPPC Veagles in QP and while it isn't the easiest mech to farm in it also isn't THAT difficult to score top damage in one. I've got plenty of matches that attest to that. CERPPCs are quite useful in QP.

I don't understand why people don't use the HBK-IIC-A for it too though. It has godlike high-mounts, I didn't need to poptart it.

w0qj, on 02 November 2020 - 06:30 PM, said:

From a newer MWO player, PPC (or ERPPC) is an all-or-nothing kind of weapon.
ie: Either you hit your enemy, or you don't.

And good luck hitting another player 500m away walking across your screen,
because anything faster than an Assault would be very difficult to hit.
At least with lasers, you can adjust your aim if it's off!

I tend to avoid PPC like the plague, until my lag shooting becomes elite (if ever).

It's actually possible, with practice. It is in fact effective at up to 810m, and is a prevalent sniping tool. I dare say even better than the Clan Gauss Rifle, which always has been about being heatless in this game.

As for the IS PPCs, yeah they are generally hot garbage, except the HPPC. The SNPPC is defensible because it's a ton less.

ERPPC is only good with quirks, and that is quite selective of the map because in most cases an HPPC with better damage per heat has the range to participate anyways. You could still deal 10 damage at 720m and compete with ERPPC a bit, that means in 88.88% of the range, the HPPC is more useful than the ER-PPC. What you get out from ERPPC versus an HPPC is just extra tonnage, velocity, and being more useful beyond 720m which really more of a niche in QP, if you aren't staying +720m away from the conflict, the ERPPC is such a wasted investment.

The LPPCs are okay at hitting, but anemic. It will always lose versus higher PPCs, because the point was the PPFLD, so if you're building alpha, why not just build heavier ppcs? It could excel on having synergy with ACs if it was implemented with lower cooldown, likewise more aggressive ppc combat with lights that would very much fit their playstyle. But alas, that isn't what happened.

The SNPPC is kind of weak, but servicable. It's weak because it's hot garbage but it works well with certain builds, like 2x LB20X and 2x SNPPC, boy that shotgun build is devastating. On it's own though, it's just waaay hotter AC20 that you aren't really properly equipped to brawl. It's no-minimum range is a garbage feature, while useful, it's just such a mercurial feature to capitalize the weapon with. PPCs shouldn't have minimum-range, it's an unfair way to make a heavy investment to be useless, especially when it's not even homing weapon. SNPPC like ERPPC should have been waaaay cooler.

The HPPC, the direct competitor on CERPPC, only wins because of higher pinpoint damage, but it loses out on everything else -- it's heavier, on top of worse IS DHS. It is however the gold-standard of PPCs.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 November 2020 - 04:01 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

The6thMessenger, on 03 November 2020 - 03:28 AM, said:

I don't understand why people don't use the HBK-IIC-A for it too though. It has godlike high-mounts, I didn't need to poptart it.

Yup HBK-IIC-A is a under rated mech

[Aidan Crenshaw]

D A T A, on 03 November 2020 - 02:23 AM, said:

It all comes back to what i always thought.
People have no idea what they talk about because they don't know how to build mechs.

Deathstrike 2cerppc+2uac10
Warhawk prime or whm IIC or mad cat 1 with 4cerppc
Veagle 3cerppc

Use these and you change idea on cerppcs

I'm wondering, D A T A, what's your opinion ont the BAS-A?

[General Solo]

JediPanther, on 01 November 2020 - 06:24 PM, said:

What i find anoying about all ppcs is the heat to damage ratio. Ppcs are my least used weapon due to heat. So what if a few mechs get a nice 10-20% velocity quirk? I'd pay mc to make that a heat quirk instead.

I try and find mechs with energy heat generation quirks for them. At most all I can find is 15% usually on is mechs. Some have ppc only or er ppc quirks like a thunderbolt or awe.

Yes their heat ratio is bad but they are like an energy autocannon 10+5, all the damage goes to one spot with bonus damage +5 which often can take out a red side torso you missed, cannot be spread like lasors and missiles can be.

Range much better than Autocannon 10 plus no ammo to explode or deplete.

So some downsides but many up.

SirSmokes, on 02 November 2020 - 04:12 AM, said:

The reason PPC got the nerf bat so hard is pop snipers it's that simple

Yes, much easier to nerf a weapon than make a matchmaker that matches PC Master Race Poptarters against each other and let Zimbo Lerm Lockers have their own games too.

But I digress

Same ole same

Maybe if Jack you I note is in T3 only played T3, or a least match maker built teams better with available players, this post may not exist.

I could be wrong, doh...not a mind reader and all that.......But I'm working on it haha.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 03 November 2020 - 04:39 AM.

[General Solo]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 November 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

And you are a surgeon in this analogy? What are you aiming to achieve by being a condescending ***** here, dude?

Yes according to Jarls List he's a Surgeon, your more a GP, both Doctors, but not both Surgeons.
imo


Edit: I'm against further nerfing things when a large Part of the playerbases pain comes from match making.

If a comp player owns a casual opponent with a C_ER_PPC is it the PPC or matchmaking?

ITS MATCH MAKING BIG FYI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 03 November 2020 - 04:56 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

OZHomerOZ, on 03 November 2020 - 04:33 AM, said:

Yes, much easier to nerf a weapon than make a matchmaker that matches PC Master Race Poptarters against each other and let Zimbo Lerm Lockers have their own games too. But I digress.

Yes yes we know the pinnacle of Mechwarrior Online is standing behind stuff jumping up and down shooting PPCs we know we know. Why dose the game have other weapon systems right there not needed at all!!!!

Edited by SirSmokes, 03 November 2020 - 07:01 AM.

[D A T A]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 03 November 2020 - 04:10 AM, said:

I'm wondering, D A T A, what's your opinion ont the BAS-A?

Every CERPPC boat is decent, every CERPPC boat with quirks is strong, this one though is not comp level because it's too wide and the convergence is too bad: warhawk and warhammer IIC can do the exact same thing with better convergence and better mobility.
10% extra range doesn't matter that much if you are so wide and the mounts are so low.
Blood asp is not comp level because slepnir and mad cat mkII have just better hit boxes, but my favourite BASP is the ecm, 3ac2 right torso and 2CERPPC left torso 23 dhs: good for farming in both QP and FP in maps that require high mounts.
alt good basp builds:
5uac5
2ac5+3uac5
1uac10+3uac5
2cerppc+3uac5

Litterally since 2017 every mix of dakka and CERPPC just works, every laser gauss mech just gets farmed

Edited by D A T A, 03 November 2020 - 06:56 AM.

[D A T A]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 02 November 2020 - 05:09 PM, said:

Yeah, I noticed his badge. 2nd place in the Championships right?

But it could come out of Heim's mouth for all that I care. Still no reason to be rude. I might not know how to play the game at the championship level, but I'm not clueless or talking out of my rear-end. I've played enough MWO from tiers 3 to 1 to know how the PUG queue behaves across a large enough cross-section of the game.

Maybe I'm under-estimating how useful the cERPPC is at the competitive level, I'm not experienced in that field, I don't enjoy competitive play. The cERPPC certainly not useful for what I used to use it for anymore, and I don't see a lot of cERPPC mechs walking away with top score these days in quick play.

But I'll eat my words. Mr. Surgeon says the cERPPC is super-meta in the hands of a professional, then I guess it is. But I don't really think maximizing balance at the championship level is the right standard by which to go about tweaking weapons for a better player experience. Most of the player base isn't in the comp queue, I don't see enough PPC use in quick play to suggest PGI needs to tread especially carefully with adjusting its stats, and in my personal experience it's not a very fun weapon to use in it's current state.

Try to balance the game on the mid tier "feelings" and you will obtain only one thing: a game that you percive as balanced, but that in reality it is not: it just hides it's unbalances from your eyes.
But comp players will always be able to foresee and exploit the massive holes in game balance that a mid tier game balance has.
Result?
Comp players will abuse an even stronger meta that you don't even comprehend, and you will get stomped even more and even harder.

CERPPC is already OP as ****, buff it even more and strong people will just insta farm you from every direction in every game.

balance must be from top to bottom, must be real, must be done by "the surgeons".
then, you must comprehend how things work and why that solution is correct.
It's either this way or you create a system with hidden holes that only comps will comprehend and abuse, and you will get farmed even harder

in 2 words: let the pros balance it to be really equal and balanced, or you will get farmed even more from a meta that you can't even see

Edited by D A T A, 03 November 2020 - 07:13 AM.

[LordNothing]

w0qj, on 02 November 2020 - 06:30 PM, said:

From a newer MWO player, PPC (or ERPPC) is an all-or-nothing kind of weapon.
ie: Either you hit your enemy, or you don't.

And good luck hitting another player 500m away walking across your screen,
because anything faster than an Assault would be very difficult to hit.
At least with lasers, you can adjust your aim if it's off!

I tend to avoid PPC like the plague, until my lag shooting becomes elite (if ever).

years of ww2 flight sims have taught me good deflection shooting. take your best guess and correct. its usually about one or two mech lengths ahead of the target (depends a lot on weight class and speed). i nail the first shot about half the time, and subsequent shots most of the time.

velocity skills and targeting computers help a lot.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 November 2020 - 07:24 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

LordNothing, on 03 November 2020 - 07:21 AM, said:

years of ww2 flight sims have taught me good deflection shooting. take your best guess and correct. its usually about one or two mech lengths ahead of the target (depends a lot on weight class and speed). i nail the first shot about half the time, and subsequent shots most of the time.

velocity skills and targeting computers help a lot.

^^ but it always a shame when you have a good lead but the target moves in different direction then you thought they might go