93 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Since Daeron is reading these, I figured I'd bring up something that's been bothering me for a while, namely Clan ERPPCs. A while back Clan ERPPCs had their cooldown raised to 5 seconds while the Inner Sphere PPC and ERPPC were set to 4 seconds. At 5 seconds the cERPPC is more than a little underwhelming, and in my opinion its a fairly frustrating weapon to use (unless of course you are using it on platforms that are quirked for it.)

It's my understanding that the cERPPC was nerfed like this because it was operating in an environment where the old cGauss + cERPPC boats were a problem. I think we're past that now that ERPPCs and Gauss rifles share a ghost heat threshold.

I would like to humbly suggest the clan ERPPC be brought down to a 4 second cooldown to match the other PPCs. I recognize that the cERPPC has the special splash damage that the IS ERPPC does not, however the Clan ERPPC is already hotter and sports a significantly slower projectile velocity, and I would think that that should make up for a little bit of extra non-pinpoint damage.

I really miss using my single cERPPC mechs. They've not been usable for quite a while and I'd like to see them be viable again.

[Y E O N N E]

I will preface this by saying that I absolutely agree that the cool-down is too long.

That said, both the cERPPC and HPPC had their cool-downs nerfed because they were "overperforming" compared to other PPC types even after the ghost-heat link. I happen to also agree with that assessment.

If we un-fork the Clan ERPPC, we make the IS PPCs less attractive. I don't think we should not un-fork the Clan ERPPC, but when we do we also need to do a pass on all the IS ones. The HPPC and ERPPC are too hot for use on all but but a select handful of 'Mechs. The Snub is too hot and too slow-firing to be effective in close range. The Light PPC is too hot and slow firing and too weak to have any sort of niche at all besides being paired with an HPPC to make a 1-ton cheaper twin-PPC build. The standard PPC has no niche and is pretty universally obsolete. The minimum range also severely undermines the effectiveness of the IS PPC family; we could build decent cool-ish PPC slinging IS Assaults that deal comparable damage to Clans using the HPPC and standard PPCs...except they are super easy to under-run the minimum range and clown on, and to cool an IS PPC boat means forgoing any back-up weapons.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Miss Greene, on 01 November 2020 - 03:59 PM, said:

I will preface this by saying that I absolutely agree that the cool-down is too long.

That said, both the cERPPC and HPPC had their cool-downs nerfed because they were "overperforming" compared to other PPC types even after the ghost-heat link. I happen to also agree with that assessment.

If we un-fork the Clan ERPPC, we make the IS PPCs less attractive. I don't think we should not un-fork the Clan ERPPC, but when we do we also need to do a pass on all the IS ones. The HPPC and ERPPC are too hot for use on all but but a select handful of 'Mechs. The Snub is too hot and too slow-firing to be effective in close range. The Light PPC is too hot and slow firing and too weak to have any sort of niche at all besides being paired with an HPPC to make a 1-ton cheaper twin-PPC build. The standard PPC has no niche and is pretty universally obsolete. The minimum range also severely undermines the effectiveness of the IS PPC family; we could build decent cool-ish PPC slinging IS Assaults that deal comparable damage to Clans using the HPPC and standard PPCs...except they are super easy to under-run the minimum range and clown on, and to cool an IS PPC boat means forgoing any back-up weapons.

I'd be curious to see what metrics the cERPPC was overperforming based on. I certainly don't doubt it racks up more damage than the IS PPCs, but then how useful is that extra damage when it always splashes to the side?

The thought experiment i always loop back to is: if you had two players at the tippy top of the skill curve, who theoretically always hit dead center CT, in mechs with the same amount of armor, going head to head, one with a cERPPC and one with a ERPPC, the guy with the ERPPC is going to win. Because if the shot hits its mark every time, the damage splashed to the side doesn't mean anything, but that lower cooldown makes a big difference.

On the other hand, you might be right about the IS ERPPC (and possibly the HPPC) being too hot for what they provide. If you bring the two ERPPCs into parity in that theoretical always-hit-the-CT environment, then what does the IS ERPPC provide? The cERPPC provides the benefit of being forgiving if your shot is off the mark. Perhaps the IS ERPPC could do with the benefit of being a bit more heat efficient, especially considering how much easier it is to pack a clan mech with double heatsinks.

On the matter of minimum ranges, you'll get no disagreement from me. The hard no-damage minimum range for PPCs isn't good balance nor is it fun. Heck, MW5 already went and did away with it entirely, simply replacing it with making the PPCs electronic interference an AOE that your own mech can get caught up in. Since I doubt MWO's engine will tolerate something like that, perhaps we could at least do something like the clan LRMs soft minimum range? except instead of having the damage start off at 0 at 0 meters, perhaps it could start off at half damage at 0 meters and scale up to full damage at the end of the minimum range?

[Gagis]

Clan ERPPC's are one of the most used weapons in competitive play at the moment.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Gagis, on 01 November 2020 - 04:36 PM, said:

Clan ERPPC's are one of the most used weapons in competitive play at the moment.

On what mechs are they typically mounted?

Edit: cERPPCs boated on PPC quirked mechs I don't doubt are effective. Competitive play heavily leaning on front loaded pinpoint weapons where they are effective doesn't surprise me either, they have the highest skill ceiling, right?

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 01 November 2020 - 04:55 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

The CERPPCs are actually rather well compared to other PPCs. Granted PPCs aren't that useful right now considering that the bloat of armor means DPS is heavily favored.

That being said, I would further point out that it doing 15 damage for a 6-tonner is quite borked, and would push damage to 12 and reduced heat in addition of lowered heat (10 + 2 Splash Damage, 11 heat, 4.0 CD).

This way, CERPPCs don't have that much spike in heat that it's more easily used with other weapons.

[Gagis]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 01 November 2020 - 04:42 PM, said:

On what mechs are they typically mounted?

2 on Summoner
3 on Vapor Eagle
4 on WHK-PRIME
those are the vast majority. Situationally you will see mechs like MAD-IIC with ERPPC too.

[LordNothing]

cerppc is the best ppc in the game. some would argue that the hppc is better, but that min range kills it.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

LordNothing, on 01 November 2020 - 04:53 PM, said:

cerppc is the best ppc in the game. some would argue that the hppc is better, but that min range kills it.

I can't imagine cERPPCs being better than ERPPCs on non-quirked mechs given the pilots have enough skill. Not far behind maybe, and perhaps markedly better than the ERPPC in the hands of the average player, but then I'd think that speaks more to the underwhelming performance of the whole PPC family at the moment.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

At the end of the day I don't think it would be contentious to say that cERPPCs are significantly less fun to use than they used to be considering how they're balanced now: namely by hamstringing their fire rate, which punishes mechs that utilize a single cERPPC far more than the PPC boats that have to juggle the high heat.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 01 November 2020 - 05:06 PM.

[LordNothing]

what id like to see done us buff all ppcs a lot, and then add blueshield.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 November 2020 - 05:15 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 01 November 2020 - 04:21 PM, said:

I'd be curious to see what metrics the cERPPC was overperforming based on. I certainly don't doubt it racks up more damage than the IS PPCs, but then how useful is that extra damage when it always splashes to the side?

The thought experiment i always loop back to is: if you had two players at the tippy top of the skill curve, who theoretically always hit dead center CT, in mechs with the same amount of armor, going head to head, one with a cERPPC and one with a ERPPC, the guy with the ERPPC is going to win. Because if the shot hits its mark every time, the damage splashed to the side doesn't mean anything, but that lower cooldown makes a big difference.

On the other hand, you might be right about the IS ERPPC (and possibly the HPPC) being too hot for what they provide. If you bring the two ERPPCs into parity in that theoretical always-hit-the-CT environment, then what does the IS ERPPC provide? The cERPPC provides the benefit of being forgiving if your shot is off the mark. Perhaps the IS ERPPC could do with the benefit of being a bit more heat efficient, especially considering how much easier it is to pack a clan mech with double heatsinks.

So, the cool-down advantage on IS ERPPC is dependent on two things to be useful:

1. That you aren't at heat cap
2. That there are targets presenting themselves to shoot at

For the first one, IS are often at heat-cap without quirks because the gun is only 7% point colder than the Clan one despite being 33% less damaging. For the second one, good players are not going to hang out in the open. If the enemy is using C-ERPPC, he's going to be in cover until he can shoot again, so how is the IS ERPPC user supposed to take advantage of his cool-down against him? He can't. The IS ERPPC user can better engage multiple targets, I suppose, but that's not a particularly effective use of heat and damage output and it requires him to expose more often and risk getting shot every time.

The splash, on the other hand, provides an advantage for no increase in risk and without any conditional dependencies. Every shot you take does 50% more damage than the equivalent number of IS ERPPCs. Every shot you partially whiff into an adjacent component still does 25% of the damage for an equivalent number of IS ERPPCs. The cool-down means you are compelled to cool-off more, further reducing the strain on the already superior number of DHS in the 'Mech and allowing you to throw in a bigger TC to close the velocity gap to negligible.

Given that even the best players miss under pressure, it's really a no-brainer to prefer the C-ERPPC to the IS ERPPC.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 01 November 2020 - 04:21 PM, said:

On the matter of minimum ranges, you'll get no disagreement from me. The hard no-damage minimum range for PPCs isn't good balance nor is it fun. Heck, MW5 already went and did away with it entirely, simply replacing it with making the PPCs electronic interference an AOE that your own mech can get caught up in. Since I doubt MWO's engine will tolerate something like that, perhaps we could at least do something like the clan LRMs soft minimum range? except instead of having the damage start off at 0 at 0 meters, perhaps it could start off at half damage at 0 meters and scale up to full damage at the end of the minimum range?

If I had my way, my initial adjustments to PPCs would look something like this (keep in mind this is for unquirked; quirks would need a big re-work):

Spoiler

Clan ER PPC
Damage: 11+4
Heat: 14.5
Cooldown: 4
Range: 810/1620
Velocity: 1400
Min-Range: None
HSL Group: 2
Rationale: Good at all ranges given compounding Clan equipment advantages in weight and sizing

PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 8.5
Cooldown: 4
Range: 540/1080
Velocity: 1400
Min-Range: None
HSL Group: 3
Rationale: IS baseline, good mid-range trading weapon that isn't too hot to complement other weapons but can also support itself. HSL=3 because the HPPC is a thing.

ER PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 12
Cooldown: 4
Range: 810/1620
Velocity: 1800
Min-Range: None
HSL Group: 3
Rationale: IS long range trading weapon; ability to fire triples counters Clans doing more PPFLD in doubles and being able to fire 2+n without cooking themselves. This is still fairly hot for IS.

Light PPC
Damage: 5
Heat: 4
Cooldown: 2.5
Range: 540/1080
Velocity: 1400
Min-Range: Exponential
HSL Group: 3
Rationale: DPS option, different niche than is typical for PPCs. Pew pew. Min range prevents it from overshadowing standard PPC and AC/10.

Snub-nose PPC
Damage: 10+2
Heat: 8
Cooldown: 3.5
Range: 270/810
Velocity: 1100
Min-Range: None
HSL Group: 3
Rationale: Its a brawling weapon, it needs to do enough damage to be worth its heat up close; slightly extended the max range over the existing 630 meters to add overlap with normal PPC and make it an interesting alternative. Lowered velocity to sync better with the shorter-ranged ballistics and missiles.

Heavy PPC
Damage: 15+3
Heat: 14.5
Cooldown: 5
Range: 540/1080
Velocity: 1400
Min-Range: Exponential
HSL Group: 2
Rationale: Big hot gun with a big beefy punch.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 01 November 2020 - 04:42 PM, said:

On what mechs are they typically mounted?

Warhawk, Summoner, Vapor Eagle, Huntsman, Nova, Ice Ferret, Hunchback IIC (still), and occasionally the Executioner and the Shadow Cat.

By comparison, the only IS 'Mechs regularly running PPCs of any sort are BJ-3, AWS-8Q, and GHR-5H and only the BJ-3 is competitive. The AWS-8Q is no match for a WHK-PRIME despite its quirks and don't even think about running 4x ERPPC on any other IS Assaults. The GHR-5H is also not too shabby, but being forced to carry around a bunch of lasers to defend its HPPCs hurts its durability and mobility potential and you can still do the same thing with a Summoner. The BJ-3 is probably the best IS PPC poptart with its aggressive quirks and fantastic mounts, and even then it is an uncommon sight in competitive play.

[w0qj]

So Clan mechs really is better than IS mechs in competitive play?
(Sorry for the stupid question; I'm a newbie around here)

Miss Greene, on 01 November 2020 - 05:25 PM, said:

So, the cool-down advantage on IS ERPPC is dependent on two things to be useful:

1. That you aren't at heat cap
2. That there are targets presenting themselves to shoot at

For the first one, IS are often at heat-cap without quirks because the gun is only 7% point colder than the Clan one despite being 33% less damaging. For the second one, good players are not going to hang out in the open. If the enemy is using C-ERPPC, he's going to be in cover until he can shoot again, so how is the IS ERPPC user supposed to take advantage of his cool-down against him? He can't. The IS ERPPC user can better engage multiple targets, I suppose, but that's not a particularly effective use of heat and damage output and it requires him to expose more often and risk getting shot every time.

The splash, on the other hand, provides an advantage for no increase in risk and without any conditional dependencies. Every shot you take does 50% more damage than the equivalent number of IS ERPPCs. Every shot you partially whiff into an adjacent component still does 25% of the damage for an equivalent number of IS ERPPCs. The cool-down means you are compelled to cool-off more, further reducing the strain on the already superior number of DHS in the 'Mech and allowing you to throw in a bigger TC to close the velocity gap to negligible.

Given that even the best players miss under pressure, it's really a no-brainer to prefer the C-ERPPC to the IS ERPPC.

...Warhawk, Summoner, Vapor Eagle, Huntsman, Nova, Ice Ferret, Hunchback IIC (still), and occasionally the Executioner and the Shadow Cat.

By comparison, the only IS 'Mechs regularly running PPCs of any sort are BJ-3, AWS-8Q, and GHR-5H and only the BJ-3 is competitive. The AWS-8Q is no match for a WHK-PRIME despite its quirks and don't even think about running 4x ERPPC on any other IS Assaults. The GHR-5H is also not too shabby, but being forced to carry around a bunch of lasers to defend its HPPCs hurts its durability and mobility potential and you can still do the same thing with a Summoner. The BJ-3 is probably the best IS PPC poptart with its aggressive quirks and fantastic mounts, and even then it is an uncommon sight in competitive play.

Edited by w0qj, 01 November 2020 - 05:40 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

w0qj, on 01 November 2020 - 05:39 PM, said:

So Clan mechs really is better than IS mechs in competitive play?
(Sorry for the stupid question; I'm a newbie around here)

No, not at all. Quirks and nerfs have flipped it around so IS is preferred. It's just that for PPCs specifically, Clans are slightly better.

[JediPanther]

What i find anoying about all ppcs is the heat to damage ratio. Ppcs are my least used weapon due to heat. So what if a few mechs get a nice 10-20% velocity quirk? I'd pay mc to make that a heat quirk instead.

I try and find mechs with energy heat generation quirks for them. At most all I can find is 15% usually on is mechs. Some have ppc only or er ppc quirks like a thunderbolt or awe.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 01 November 2020 - 05:06 PM, said:

At the end of the day I don't think it would be contentious to say that cERPPCs are significantly less fun to use than they used to be considering how they're balanced now: namely by hamstringing their fire rate, which punishes mechs that utilize a single cERPPC far more than the PPC boats that have to juggle the high heat.

The reason PPC got the nerf bat so hard is pop snipers it's that simple

Edited by SirSmokes, 02 November 2020 - 04:16 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

SirSmokes, on 02 November 2020 - 04:12 AM, said:

The reason PPC got the nerf bat so hard is pop snipers it's that simple

Honestly, if they really wanted to just stop the poptarting, they should just put a consistent shake during air-time, or just prevent any firing of weapons at all.

There's no point shafting every other aspect for that one thing they just didn't liked.

[The pessimistic optimist]

The6thMessenger, on 02 November 2020 - 04:37 AM, said:

Honestly, if they really wanted to just stop the poptarting, they should just put a consistent shake during air-time, or just prevent any firing of weapons at all.

There's no point shafting every other aspect for that one thing they just didn't liked.

I am pretty sure jump jet use to shake the cockpit like that when jumping not sure why that was removed. Someone tell me I not crazy jump jet use to have cockpit shake right?

Edited by SirSmokes, 02 November 2020 - 04:52 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

It has, after a certain amount of burntime.

[The6thMessenger]

SirSmokes, on 02 November 2020 - 04:52 AM, said:

I am pretty sure jump jet use to shake the cockpit like that when jumping not sure why that was removed. Someone tell me I not crazy jump jet use to have cockpit shake right?

The shake stops after you let go of the JJ, so at that brief fall you have a solid aim.