117 replies to this topic

[Pseudo98]

Surn, on 12 November 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

This is an actual path for players to be heard without gatekeepers shutting them down or dismissing them.

I'm fairly sure the community is pretty grateful that we are pointing out how bad your idea is to take things we already have away and charge us to have it back with the added bonus of an pointless animated gif.

Charging a subscription would be the final nail in the coffin, how do you you not get this? I didn't vote $0 for a meme, I voted $0 because I won't pay for a subscription, I will however pay for individual colours, bolt-ons, mechs, variants, I would even contribute to a Kickstarter for new maps which minimise NASCAR.

[martian]

Surn, on 12 November 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

Please fill out the survey to determine if and what might be valuable enough for you to support development of the game with a subscription.
...
Troll messages and multiple submissions will eventually be cleaned up by a neutral party.

Are you going to clean your own multiple submissions from the survey?

Specifically, I am talking about these:

• Advanced Reports (higher resolution graphics, more detailed information, etc)
  
• Animated After Action Report
  
• Automated Content Generated When I Play
  
• Periodic Successful Mech per Mission Report

They are essentially just one submission regarding your Cloud, but written four times using different words.

[Pseudo98]

Besides manipulating the data by removing 'trolls' instead of testing if the form could be exploited with multiple votes before announcing it (you're a **** developer if you don't understand basic QA) it's a biased form which only favours your solution if there isn't an option for $0.

The implementation of this 'vote' is as flawed as your idea.

Edited by Pseudo98, 14 November 2020 - 01:01 AM.

[Rosarius]

It's weird that you produced the data from questions 2 and 3 but omitted question 1. Call me cynical, but a lack of data may lead one to think you are doing so to save face

Edited by Rosarius, 14 November 2020 - 01:08 AM.

[w0qj]

Just filled out the survey

[VonBruinwald]

Rosarius, on 14 November 2020 - 01:08 AM, said:

It's weird that you produced the data from questions 2 and 3 but omitted question 1. Call me cynical, but a lack of data may lead one to think you are doing so to save face

I must admit, I do find that suspicious. (Cherry) picking what data to post is always a cause for concern.

Would also appreciate a list of the "Other" responses, might as well include the none-offensive troll ones for a giggle.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 14 November 2020 - 07:10 AM.

[Kurlon]

Surn, on 12 November 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

I will not clean up the data to ensure there is no bias claim about the data collected. Troll messages and multiple submissions will eventually be cleaned up by a neutral party.

The easiest path to full transparency is to share the results sheet with full edit history publicly. Otherwise, you'll be accused of being the gatekeeper.

[Surn]

Kurlon, on 14 November 2020 - 08:05 AM, said:

The easiest path to full transparency is to share the results sheet with full edit history publicly. Otherwise, you'll be accused of being the gatekeeper.

This is exactly why I am not going to edit the data.

However, the people who are trying to gatekeep are obvious from their posts. Some of the comments are hilariously hateful and offensive. I am sure there are some children on the forums and it would be inappropriate to post right now.

[Surn]

Pseudo98, on 14 November 2020 - 01:01 AM, said:

Besides manipulating the data by removing 'trolls' instead of testing if the form could be exploited with multiple votes before announcing it (you're a **** developer if you don't understand basic QA) it's a biased form which only favours your solution if there isn't an option for $0.

The implementation of this 'vote' is as flawed as your idea.

#StopTheCount
#NeverSurn
#DataIsBadMmK

You have the ability to add any option you like in this anonymous survey. If I restricted it by email address it would still be open to manipulation. This way removes a barrier to entry, a gate if you will...

[Pseudo98]

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 09:51 AM, said:

This way removes a barrier to entry, a gate if you will...

The only gate I'm worried about is the open one on your cage at the asylum.

[Surn]

VonBruinwald, on 14 November 2020 - 07:10 AM, said:

I must admit, I do find that suspicious. (Cherry) picking what data to post is always a cause for concern.

Would also appreciate a list of the "Other" responses, might as well include the none-offensive troll ones for a giggle.

I posted the most concise data, but there are some excellent suggestions in the comments...and some giggles!
The fact that so many people would be open to a subscription above anything I included is interesting.

[Kurlon]

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 09:57 AM, said:

The fact that so many people would be open to a subscription above anything I included is interesting.

Actually, after going through a couple commercially run customer surveys like this, you committed a major self fulfilling prophecy gaff by not including an option in the survey of "I would not pay" or "$0.00". This became apparent to us when two versions of the survey that only differed by the option of "$0.00" for a theoretical product was listed or not. If not listed, people chose from the options, making it appear the product had a market. If you included "$0.00" it became clear that there was not in fact a market as the majority of people wouldn't pay for said theoretical product. In our case it was a also a fixed survey pool size, so we knew also how many people didn't respond to factor into reading the results. You don't even have that to gauge weather your positive responses mean anything actually actionable.

Edited by Kurlon, 14 November 2020 - 10:08 AM.

[nuttyrat]

Kurlon, on 14 November 2020 - 08:05 AM, said:

The easiest path to full transparency is to share the results sheet with full edit history publicly. Otherwise, you'll be accused of being the gatekeeper.

The data doesn't hold weight anyway, because there are no restrictions on submission; the gathering method is fundamentally flawed because anyone (good or bad) can post multiple responses to push their agenda. The survey needs to be re-done with proper conditions to prevent people from submitting multiple responses and with better/more questions.

Edited by nuttyrat, 14 November 2020 - 10:08 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

Gets laugh out of reddit

Gets laughed out of Discord

Gets laughed off of comp and PGI discussion twitch stream.


...I know, I can spam this trash on the Brown Sea!

Edited by thievingmagpi, 14 November 2020 - 12:02 PM.

[Surn]

Pseudo98, on 14 November 2020 - 12:56 AM, said:

I'm fairly sure the community is pretty grateful that we are pointing out how bad your idea is to take things we already have away and charge us to have it back with the added bonus of an pointless animated gif.

Charging a subscription would be the final nail in the coffin, how do you you not get this? I didn't vote $0 for a meme, I voted $0 because I won't pay for a subscription, I will however pay for individual colours, bolt-ons, mechs, variants, I would even contribute to a Kickstarter for new maps which minimise NASCAR.

There is no suggestion to remove current monetization, cancel anyone else's proposals, add a required subscription or make a subscription that changes the balance of the game.

...and no, the community is not grateful for its gatekeepers, thought police, plantation owners, etc.

Google a few quotes from famous dictators to get some perspective... or new material.

[Surn]

nuttyrat, on 14 November 2020 - 10:08 AM, said:

The data doesn't hold weight anyway, because there are no restrictions on submission; the gathering method is fundamentally flawed because anyone (good or bad) can post multiple responses to push their agenda. The survey needs to be re-done with proper conditions to prevent people from submitting multiple responses and with better/more questions.

That is a flawed argument as all online polls are apt for fraud. Nevertheless, they are common enough that Google includes this tool alongside and integrated with spreadsheets to analyze the data in this format. I am going to side with the standard tools.

It really is a case of bias to ignore and minimize everyone else's opinions.

[Pseudo98]

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 11:17 AM, said:

get some perspective... or new material.

ahahahahaha, how long have you been pimping this exactly?

[VonBruinwald]

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 11:27 AM, said:

Nevertheless, they are common enough that Google includes this tool alongside and integrated with spreadsheets to analyze the data in this format. I am going to side with the standard tools.

Google includes this tool in order to harvest data, every IP that submits a form is collated and cross referenced to build a network of common interests and profile us.

General rule is if someones giving you something for free then you're the product.

[Surn]

(This is not in reply to anyone individually)

Personal attacks are not an argument.

Insulting and attacking is evidence that you have no argument.

I appreciate criticism and skepticism. However, avoid personal attacks and your own bias to dismiss other people's opinions. We all have bias and we all get angry. The redeeming quality of a person is found when they look past themselves.

With that said, I am no angel either. If you attack me or others to "gatekeep" who can speak or be heard, no one is going to sit down or take it.

There is a reason, I am attacked on reddit with down votes from 4 people and a bot. They have no argument, so all they can do it try to hide what I say. They are trolls who have tied their self worth to thinking of themselves as the sole voice for all mwo players.

A dozen or more players have personally messaged me about being attacked by this same group of people when they attempt to contribute. Either via mob attacks or stat shaming, the same few people are always responsible.

With me, as a 99% player, they had to invent a new stat shame term "Matchscore farmer", to legitimize the common "he is a noob" argument. However, we all know that playing on a 4 man team drastically alters you stats and it is they who are claiming individual mastery based on team stats like w/l or k/d.

A key objection to an After Action Report might be that people will see questionable tactics. Using the solo players as meatshields, never leading in assaults, hiding in the middle, waiting to engage until the end, hiding in the back as a 4 man, using groups to pad the stats of certain players, etc. Everyone will see how selfish and toxic these tactics are...and THAT IS SOMETHING I DID NOT FORESEE.

So as a developer, a player and a contributor to Mechwarrior, I want to point out that tabletop gaming had an element of good will and honor. Honor is the glue of this community and has been since BEFORE I made that first online league. It is that honor that inspires us to love this weird little robot game.

Edited by Surn, 14 November 2020 - 09:02 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

With me, as a 99% player, they had to invent a new stat shame term "Matchscore farmer", to legitimize the common "he is a noob" argument.

Hahahahahahahaha YOU said yourself that you play for matchscore.

It's also evident in all your stats you've *tried* to use to prove otherwise. lmao. More absolute delusion.

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

However, we all know that playing on a 4 man team drastically alters you stats and it is they who are claiming individual mastery based on team stats like w/l or k/d.

Did you know that running 4 mans is a new thing and people were succeeding at important individual metrics well before that? Did you know that it's easy to spot where you figured out you can farm AMS and your match score significantly increased?

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

There is a reason, I am attacked on reddit with down votes from 4 people and a bot.

Ahahahahahahah.

Ah yes, the old argument of the high iq nobody. "It was bots! It was cheaters! They use wallhacks!"

Pathetic.

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

They have no argument, so all they can do it try to hide what I say. They are trolls who have tied their self worth to thinking of themselves as the sole voice for all mwo players.

Nope, the argument gets presented time and time again and you are simpy too delusion and full of yourself- which why you like to stick in hilariously pathetic attempts at bragging- to ever admit your idea is idiotic.

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

A dozen or more players have personally messaged me

Ahahahahahahahaha


Never happened.

Hahahahaha.

You are so delusional and butthurt it's hilarious.

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

about being attacked by this same group of people when they attempt to contribute. Either via mob attacks or stat shaming, the same few people are always responsible.

You're right, there are a lot of really stupid people in this game who despite being proven wrong, time and time again, using actual demonstrable facts, continue to double down on their moronic opinions. They love to pat each other on the back and claim they're being victimized, ust like you are right now. It's why we still hear 200iq ideas like mixtech come up. It's why we hear 200iq ideas like Battle Value come up. They're too stupid and/or stubborn to listen to reason, so the best anyone can do is point and laugh.

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

A key objection to my After Action Report is that people will see their tactics. Using the solo players as meatshields, never leading in assaults, hiding in the middle, waiting to engage until the end, hiding in the back as a 4 man, using groups to pad the stats of certain players, etc. Everyone will see how selfish and toxic these players are...and THAT IS SOMETHING I DID NOT FORESEE.

People can't figure out they're being shot when there are multiple indicators, including a live map, that tells them that. Looking at some map with some little icons moving around isn't going to help them. They can't take basic information and internalize it. No AAR is going to help.

Surn, on 14 November 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

So as a developer, a player and a contributor to Mechwarrior,\

Sorry, the fact that you did some mods for Mechwarrior 2 like 20 years ago doesn't make you any kind of "contributor"

Edited by thievingmagpi, 14 November 2020 - 12:49 PM.