690 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Acersecomic, on 24 December 2020 - 02:49 AM, said:

Have it decline and waste away as it has been year after year due to PGI incompetence and them having vocal support from the likes of you.

Woah, where did I say they have my support. If anything PGI's problem has been trying to appease to diametrically opposed sides. Ones who want this game to be a true combat sim and true to the fluff and then those that want the game to be more like a modern team based game with stompy robots.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 December 2020 - 10:59 AM.

[Onigato69]

Would it be possible to give the option to give each mech a map to ignore? Say Solaris City for a LRM mech, or Polar Highlands for a SRM build. I would be happy even if my que times were increased as long as I avoided maps that are horrible for a certain build.

It doesn't even make tactical sense to field certain mech types for specific environments. As a commander you wouldn't bring long range support mechs to a city engagement. It is also a horrible play experience for players.

[Horseman]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 December 2020 - 10:58 AM, said:

Woah, where did I say they have my support. If anything PGI's problem has been trying to appease to diametrically opposed sides. Ones who want this game to be a true combat sim and true to the fluff and then those that want the game to be more like a modern team based game with stompy robots.

And right now it's neither, and too far down the current paradigm to change to either of them fully.

[Gas Guzzler]

Acersecomic, on 23 December 2020 - 01:37 PM, said:

I'm trying to comprehend just how are you so convinced in your words that are completely and utterly so wrong and stupid that I am just... I am speechless.

THE POINT IS TO NOT HAVE ALL THOSE SAME WEAPONS MIXED TOGETHER! Do you know why I am comparing it to CoD? Because it's point and press left mouse button. Do you know what builds in MWO have come down to? Point and press left mouse button. No weapon cycling, no being mindful of ranges, flight speeds.... it's just everything that can be fired at once, YAY INTELLIGENCE. I could use any regular old shooter, CoD is just on the menu because it is famous. Rainbow Six could have also been used simply because it is "point, press one button" and that's always enough to kill. Do not mention "yeah but you can also do this or that or what if riot shield" or whatever. Irrelevant, niche cases.

People of great skill being able to work through a restrictive mechanic are rewarded by being able to use something very powerful and do it effectively. I don't care if there is recoil or something and some skilled pilot manages through all that play effectively and come out on top. Kudos to that player! And sure both bad and good players can play the same build now and better player will come out on top without a doubt, but those bad players will still completely ruin it for others when they core em and then die anyways.
Skill floors/ceilings exists for a good reason. Breaking those barriers is skill. There is no skill involved right now with pointing at someone 20 pinpoint alpha every 2 seconds because "dakka go brrrrrr". Nothing but gauss is heat neutral but just because something builds up heat doesn't mean it's significant enough to matter at all. Quad AC/5 or UAC/5 can blow off a torso from a King Crab accurately and effectively before it reaches any critical heat levels. I've done it today, couldn't have cared less about what the King was using because it didn't matter due to my overwhelming pinpoint dps.
Yours is the same argument as a car going 150 on a 50 mph road and saying "oh but he'll run out of fuel eventually".

Weapons working well together means more damage per shot, meaning faster kill times, resulting is way more one sided fights, in faster fights. "Oh look an assau... aaand he's gone. I had an UAC/20 + x2 UAC/10 MadCatB. It took me about 7-10 seconds to core an Atlas. Man look at that Atlas, what a load of armor, hahahaha I joke, dakka go brrrr! Man it must have felt so fun for that guy to be dead in seconds in one of the most armored mechs in the game. I didn't even care that he torso twisted, I just waited for him to turn to take a shot and I unloaded another 80 point pinpoint alpha to his CT without worrying about heat.
What about my Roughneck? AC20 + x3 SRM6A. Usually takes 2 to 3 alphas to blow off a torso from another Heavy and some Assaults, not to mention how in 1-2 it cores mediums.
These builds are problematic! That's why there is Ghost Heat, why you can't fire more than 2 Gauss or 2 Gauss+PPC and vice versa. TO STOP BLLSHT builds like that!
Chain firing would at least reduce the amount of instant pinpoint and lower the DPS, at least allow people to face the enemy after a torso twist and not receive a death penalty just for engaging the enemy.

I want a thinking man's shooter, and making people MAKE SOME EFFORT TO KILL SOMEONE and use a bit of tactic is not mind numbingly dull, pressing one button the entire match is. And you are advocating mind numbingly dull gameplay. I want that stupidity to be gone by reducing the effectiveness of such one-trick-pony builds.
By carrying different weapon types, ranges etc PEOPLE WOULD TAKE MORE CONSIDERATION OF THE TERRAIN because they'd have to be mindful of what and where they shoot and how they approach the fight. Although maps need a complete overhaul on their end for that since every map only has 1 or 2 choke points anyways and they're like 5 minutes of walking apart, you might as well afk if you're gonna try to flank on most maps.

Like... how can you be so completely wrong in what you're accusing me of?
I propose changes that would make people think how they build and fire weapons, you claim that to be less strategic and more simple, when in fact that would complicate things and make people think how they shoot.
But you do you, charge at the enemy and call it flanking.

You want a thinking mans shooter, join a comp team.

Ironically, you wanting to nerf firepower means you need less thought to play the game so you are contradicting yourself. Those builds aren’t problematic at all and you must be playing against people who don’t know how to torso twist. Honestly the amount of thought that goes in to what weapons to fire in a mixed bracket build is over exaggerated. It’s not hard to not fire an AC20 from 700m out. I go between mixed builds and 2-weapon group builds and there is no difference in thought needed. Positioning and damage mitigation are how this game is won, not by being better at chainfiring lol, FaceTankWarrior Online doesn’t sound like a good game to me.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 December 2020 - 11:04 PM.

[tingod]

quadrupeds please.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Acersecomic, on 23 December 2020 - 01:37 PM, said:

I'm trying to comprehend just how are you so convinced in your words that are completely and utterly so wrong and stupid that I am just... I am speechless.

THE POINT IS TO NOT HAVE ALL THOSE SAME WEAPONS MIXED TOGETHER! Do you know why I am comparing it to CoD? Because it's point and press left mouse button. Do you know what builds in MWO have come down to? Point and press left mouse button. No weapon cycling, no being mindful of ranges, flight speeds.... it's just everything that can be fired at once, YAY INTELLIGENCE. I could use any regular old shooter, CoD is just on the menu because it is famous. Rainbow Six could have also been used simply because it is "point, press one button" and that's always enough to kill. Do not mention "yeah but you can also do this or that or what if riot shield" or whatever. Irrelevant, niche cases.

People of great skill being able to work through a restrictive mechanic are rewarded by being able to use something very powerful and do it effectively. I don't care if there is recoil or something and some skilled pilot manages through all that play effectively and come out on top. Kudos to that player! And sure both bad and good players can play the same build now and better player will come out on top without a doubt, but those bad players will still completely ruin it for others when they core em and then die anyways.
Skill floors/ceilings exists for a good reason. Breaking those barriers is skill. There is no skill involved right now with pointing at someone 20 pinpoint alpha every 2 seconds because "dakka go brrrrrr". Nothing but gauss is heat neutral but just because something builds up heat doesn't mean it's significant enough to matter at all. Quad AC/5 or UAC/5 can blow off a torso from a King Crab accurately and effectively before it reaches any critical heat levels. I've done it today, couldn't have cared less about what the King was using because it didn't matter due to my overwhelming pinpoint dps.
Yours is the same argument as a car going 150 on a 50 mph road and saying "oh but he'll run out of fuel eventually".

Weapons working well together means more damage per shot, meaning faster kill times, resulting is way more one sided fights, in faster fights. "Oh look an assau... aaand he's gone. I had an UAC/20 + x2 UAC/10 MadCatB. It took me about 7-10 seconds to core an Atlas. Man look at that Atlas, what a load of armor, hahahaha I joke, dakka go brrrr! Man it must have felt so fun for that guy to be dead in seconds in one of the most armored mechs in the game. I didn't even care that he torso twisted, I just waited for him to turn to take a shot and I unloaded another 80 point pinpoint alpha to his CT without worrying about heat.
What about my Roughneck? AC20 + x3 SRM6A. Usually takes 2 to 3 alphas to blow off a torso from another Heavy and some Assaults, not to mention how in 1-2 it cores mediums.
These builds are problematic! That's why there is Ghost Heat, why you can't fire more than 2 Gauss or 2 Gauss+PPC and vice versa. TO STOP BLLSHT builds like that!
Chain firing would at least reduce the amount of instant pinpoint and lower the DPS, at least allow people to face the enemy after a torso twist and not receive a death penalty just for engaging the enemy.

I want a thinking man's shooter, and making people MAKE SOME EFFORT TO KILL SOMEONE and use a bit of tactic is not mind numbingly dull, pressing one button the entire match is. And you are advocating mind numbingly dull gameplay. I want that stupidity to be gone by reducing the effectiveness of such one-trick-pony builds.
By carrying different weapon types, ranges etc PEOPLE WOULD TAKE MORE CONSIDERATION OF THE TERRAIN because they'd have to be mindful of what and where they shoot and how they approach the fight. Although maps need a complete overhaul on their end for that since every map only has 1 or 2 choke points anyways and they're like 5 minutes of walking apart, you might as well afk if you're gonna try to flank on most maps.

Like... how can you be so completely wrong in what you're accusing me of?
I propose changes that would make people think how they build and fire weapons, you claim that to be less strategic and more simple, when in fact that would complicate things and make people think how they shoot.
But you do you, charge at the enemy and call it flanking.

thats the Problem with a Free Mechlab ! its great for Singleplayer Games like MW2/3 ...in MW4 its gave Restrictions ..in MWO you take the best Chassies in Loadout/Weight/Speed and the best Weapons and all Variants and Mechchassies most useless.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 25 December 2020 - 02:29 AM.

[FredDingles]

1) EXCALIBUR:IS long range support mech. We have... catapult and archer ATM.

2) Exterminator: 65 ton assassin. Please use the jump specs from the VICTOR on this one.

3) I really want to see the Shootist, even though the Roughneck essentially fills that role now.

4) Battle Cobra. Make the Battle Cobra, please. You have BOTH the Hellspawn and Dervish, but you never implemented the Battle Cobra!?!?!?

Hollander, Mercury, Crockett,

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 December 2020 - 11:03 PM, said:

You want a thinking mans shooter, join a comp team.

Ironically, you wanting to nerf firepower means you need less thought to play the game so you are contradicting yourself. Those builds aren’t problematic at all and you must be playing against people who don’t know how to torso twist. Honestly the amount of thought that goes in to what weapons to fire in a mixed bracket build is over exaggerated. It’s not hard to not fire an AC20 from 700m out. I go between mixed builds and 2-weapon group builds and there is no difference in thought needed. Positioning and damage mitigation are how this game is won, not by being better at chainfiring lol, FaceTankWarrior Online doesn’t sound like a good game to me.

We all know how this game is won.. the point I think he's making is in regards to weapons. He's right in that having a variety of non-related weapons on a mech forces you to think much harder than just pressing alpha all the time.. because you gotta know when to use which weapon. Keep good positioning while you wear them down at range before engaging with your brawlier weapons.. etc. I don't do as well, obviously, but I actually have much more fun using these 'hybrid' builds than piloting meta, high alpha, singular type weapon builds.. Positioning and damage mitigation still will be crucial for winning, he wouldn't deny that nor would I, but boating a variety of weapons would make the game funner imo.. atm it's not possible to use these builds because of the high dps, meta builds that infest this game making time-to-die very short for most players.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 25 December 2020 - 11:32 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAEDALOS513, on 25 December 2020 - 10:34 AM, said:

He's right in that having a variety of non-related weapons on a mech forces you to think much harder than just pressing alpha all the time..

No he's not because a lot of them you don't alpha all the time as well as the word alpha gets lost in context (not all alphas are equal, calling UAC builds alpha designs kinda misses the point of the build since most of them don't have weapons that all fire on the same recycle). Most mechs can't sustain alphas, at some point you get heat capped so at some point you are using reduced damage, but also weapon location matters for certain mechs as well. If a mech is meant to peak but has some split between sides, you might have a weapon group for each side of the mech to use to peak with. Both heat neutral and location as much brain cells as using different weapon groups depending on the range of the mech, ie none because really the goal should be to bake that into muscle memory such that you don't have to think about it and can focus on other things like positioning, it is no different than controlling predictive recoil ie you want that to be a reflex.

Utlimately it is all moot because I think there are some terms that typically get thrown around that don't mean what people think. Bracket builds is a term that gets thrown around a lot, but a bracket build at one point was meta (ERPPC + ERSL/ERSPL Hunchie II) but would be frowned on by the same people that want bracket builds because it isn't a kitchen sink build which is what people are typically referring to. They want a mech with a little bit of everything to be effective, and most of those weren't effective in TT so expecting mechs with a bunch of disparate weapons to somehow be effective in this is just.....silly. Expecting builds that use weapons that have no relation to each other even if they are the same range bracket just does not make sense. Why? Why should that be good? What playstyle does that honestly reward because typical bracket builds are skirmishers and we already have that (they are typically meta mediums/heavies that aren't called the Night Gyr).

TBH, I blame the books which for building up drama obviously had to emphasize each weapon firing separately and put more emphasis on the pilots struggle aiming/piloting more so than actual tactics like concave firing lines or trading shots. One sounds good but makes for boring gameplay (or more of a sim, where it is more you versus the machine than the actual enemy) while the other doesn't read as well, but makes for more engaging gameplay (at a higher level when you aren't playing spuds).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 December 2020 - 10:23 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 December 2020 - 10:21 PM, said:

No he's not because a lot of them you don't alpha all the time as well as the word alpha gets lost in context (not all alphas are equal, calling UAC builds alpha designs kinda misses the point of the build since most of them don't have weapons that all fire on the same recycle). Most mechs can't sustain alphas, at some point you get heat capped so at some point you are using reduced damage, but also weapon location matters for certain mechs as well. If a mech is meant to peak but has some split between sides, you might have a weapon group for each side of the mech to use to peak with. Both heat neutral and location as much brain cells as using different weapon groups depending on the range of the mech, ie none because really the goal should be to bake that into muscle memory such that you don't have to think about it and can focus on other things like positioning, it is no different than controlling predictive recoil ie you want that to be a reflex.

Utlimately it is all moot because I think there are some terms that typically get thrown around that don't mean what people think. Bracket builds is a term that gets thrown around a lot, but a bracket build at one point was meta (ERPPC + ERSL/ERSPL Hunchie II) but would be frowned on by the same people that want bracket builds because it isn't a kitchen sink build which is what people are typically referring to. They want a mech with a little bit of everything to be effective, and most of those weren't effective in TT so expecting mechs with a bunch of disparate weapons to somehow be effective in this is just.....silly. Expecting builds that use weapons that have no relation to each other even if they are the same range bracket just does not make sense. Why? Why should that be good? What playstyle does that honestly reward because typical bracket builds are skirmishers and we already have that (they are typically meta mediums/heavies that aren't called the Night Gyr).

TBH, I blame the books which for building up drama obviously had to emphasize each weapon firing separately and put more emphasis on the pilots struggle aiming/piloting more so than actual tactics like concave firing lines or trading shots. One sounds good but makes for boring gameplay (or more of a sim, where it is more you versus the machine than the actual enemy) while the other doesn't read as well, but makes for more engaging gameplay (at a higher level when you aren't playing spuds).

Yes the novels was simple Trash and each Fight goes over 2 book pages and lasted for what felt like hours, like in films where the world goes under but the hero quickly repairs the entire family history in the 3 minutes it takes to save it.
And the most Designs in BT was unrealistic ,mechanical nonsense or Stupid like the hollander..a thinny Mech with a Giant Gausscanon and who is the Place for the Ammo ? ...a Yes all mechs beaming his Ammo from the Torso in the Weapons like Catapult

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 26 December 2020 - 09:15 PM.

[tingod]

the "war dog" looks fun.

[DAEDALOS513]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 December 2020 - 10:21 PM, said:

No he's not because a lot of them you don't alpha all the time as well as the word alpha gets lost in context (not all alphas are equal, calling UAC builds alpha designs kinda misses the point of the build since most of them don't have weapons that all fire on the same recycle). Most mechs can't sustain alphas, at some point you get heat capped so at some point you are using reduced damage, but also weapon location matters for certain mechs as well. If a mech is meant to peak but has some split between sides, you might have a weapon group for each side of the mech to use to peak with. Both heat neutral and location as much brain cells as using different weapon groups depending on the range of the mech, ie none because really the goal should be to bake that into muscle memory such that you don't have to think about it and can focus on other things like positioning, it is no different than controlling predictive recoil ie you want that to be a reflex.

Utlimately it is all moot because I think there are some terms that typically get thrown around that don't mean what people think. Bracket builds is a term that gets thrown around a lot, but a bracket build at one point was meta (ERPPC + ERSL/ERSPL Hunchie II) but would be frowned on by the same people that want bracket builds because it isn't a kitchen sink build which is what people are typically referring to. They want a mech with a little bit of everything to be effective, and most of those weren't effective in TT so expecting mechs with a bunch of disparate weapons to somehow be effective in this is just.....silly. Expecting builds that use weapons that have no relation to each other even if they are the same range bracket just does not make sense. Why? Why should that be good? What playstyle does that honestly reward because typical bracket builds are skirmishers and we already have that (they are typically meta mediums/heavies that aren't called the Night Gyr).

TBH, I blame the books which for building up drama obviously had to emphasize each weapon firing separately and put more emphasis on the pilots struggle aiming/piloting more so than actual tactics like concave firing lines or trading shots. One sounds good but makes for boring gameplay (or more of a sim, where it is more you versus the machine than the actual enemy) while the other doesn't read as well, but makes for more engaging gameplay (at a higher level when you aren't playing spuds).

You're still thinking 'alpha' in your head.. where you can fire all weapons because they 'should' be all similiar. Ah well, you missed the point about weapons variety, TTK and fun.. rather than repeat myself just re-read my initial response..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 27 December 2020 - 08:24 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAEDALOS513, on 27 December 2020 - 08:22 AM, said:

You're still thinking 'alpha' in your head.. where you can fire all weapons because they 'should' be all similiar. Ah well, you missed the point about weapons variety, TTK and fun.. rather than repeat myself just re-read my initial response..

Something you don't seem to understand is that ttk impacts what weapons are useful. The higher the TTK the more DPS weapons eclipse everything because alpha weapons lose their impact. TTK also controls how strong ranged weaponry are. The higher the TTK the stronger rush/pushes are and the weaker range is.

Forcing chain fire won't increase weapon variety, it will actually reduce it. We actually saw this born out with the energy draw public test. Weapon variety decreased, tactics became singular, and combat became less fun.

[DAEDALOS513]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2020 - 09:03 AM, said:

Something you don't seem to understand is that ttk impacts what weapons are useful. The higher the TTK the more DPS weapons eclipse everything because alpha weapons lose their impact. TTK also controls how strong ranged weaponry are. The higher the TTK the stronger rush/pushes are and the weaker range is.

Forcing chain fire won't increase weapon variety, it will actually reduce it. We actually saw this born out with the energy draw public test. Weapon variety decreased, tactics became singular, and combat became less fun.

Sorry I don't follow your logic.. I can't make sense of it.. maybe I need a coffee..

[Gas Guzzler]

Just popping in to repeat:

Sunder/Kingfisher/Turkina/Hauptmann/Templar would all get either a Collectors Pack or an Ultimate Pack out of me.

Just saying... Raptor/Black Hawk-KU/Men-Shen/Avatar would be runner ups

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Spam Lanwalker, on 27 December 2020 - 03:12 AM, said:

F**K MECHS , FIX THE F**KING MATCHMAKER 1!!!

with no Lobbys and Chassiebinded/Playtime/skill System (War Thunder/Star Conflict)no matchmaker ...seeing CoD Warzone/Battlefield 1 and V/SW Battlefront 2 all have the same Problem with Random Casual Spawns ,or the MW4 multiplayer outside of the Leagues and seal Clubbing

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 28 December 2020 - 12:26 AM.

[Smutty]

Acersecomic, on 23 December 2020 - 04:32 AM, said:

And in what world would this reduce the use of PPCs and Gauss rifles exactly. It would even the playing field. Not only for these two weapons but for all. Suddenly you'd have to maybe put less of the same ballistics and add some other weapon systems? HUH? Imagine that, a mech with more than ONE WEAPON MODEL! What a crazy world.

Waah why my tabletop builds no work. Go back to MW3 dawg. It's like you haven't seen:
UAC/10 + UAC/5 builds
UAC/2 + UAC/5 builds
Gauss + ERML builds
Gauss + ERLL builds
Gauss + HLL builds
MRM + LB20 builds
MRM + AC/20 builds
MRM + HGR Builds
HLL + ERML Builds
LB10 + ML/MPL builds
PPC + AC/10 builds
RAC/2 + UAC/2/5 builds
usw.

Just because people like fighting in a range bracket doesn't mean everything is the same. The biggest offenders are Mechs like the Sleipnir but that's not a problem with weapon diversity, that's a problem with that particular chassis being among the utter best in the game due to its stats. There's so much build diversity even when you're building for a specific range bracket (unless you're playing IS MPLs but those are a special case). Like c'mon dawg, how'd you get to 90% thinking like this

[Will9761]

Spam Lanwalker, on 27 December 2020 - 03:12 AM, said:

F**K MECHS , FIX THE F**KING MATCHMAKER 1!!!

This thread isn't the place for that. The Modes thread is the best place to discuss this.

[-Skyrider-]

I'd love to see the fire moth as well as the IS omnis like the Avatar, Raptor, Owens, Sunder, Men shen etc... But this might be crazy to suggest, if IS omnis where to put into the game could we have the customization options for omnimechs be relaxed a bit otherwise it's be a stretch to get some of these guys to work. To give an example being allowed to change the upgrades on the omnis. (ferro armor, endo steel, dhs, and switching between xl and std engines.) Another way on top of the previous is to allow for the removal of fixed equipment. (Jumpjets, fixed heatsinks, masc.) A final more outlandish idea is to give omnis very restricted engine changing, like only being able to shift engine size up or down by one old school tile space speed if possible. For example if we look at the maddog it normally has a 300xl in it, but this new rule would allow it to now equip a 240, 300, or 360 but nothing in between. Not only could changes like these allow for viability of new omnis but also the current ones as well.

[Doriam]

Please, tune down muzzle flash brightness for rapid fire ballistic weapons (AC-2, MGs and maybe clan U\AC). It's REALLY hurts eyes.

Edited by Doriam, 29 December 2020 - 06:15 AM.