261 replies to this topic

[Forgeling]

The 100 GSP bundle is a step in the right direction. I'd also recomend being able to convert xp into GXP without spending a fortune in MC. Perhaps once you unlock a mech to 91 nodes you can then start converting the xp from that mech into GXP for cbills instead of MC.

[thievingmagpi]

Absolutely no to removing friendly fire. Surely what this game really needs is more incentive for people to put zero effort in.

Do you want the bumpers up in all the lanes and maybe a time out button too? How about just a screen that asks you Do you want to win the match Y/N? When you drop and you get 10 million C Bills no matter what you press because everyone is a winner in MWO2021.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 17 November 2020 - 08:40 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

thievingmagpi, on 17 November 2020 - 08:37 PM, said:

Absolutely no to removing friendly fire. Surely what this game really needs is more incentive for people to put zero effort in.

Do you want the bumpers up in all the lanes and maybe a time out button too? How about just a screen that asks you Do you want to win the match Y/N? When you drop and you get 10 million C Bills no matter what you press because everyone is a winner in MWO2021.

That's an incredibly unrelated tangent.

No FF is not quite the same as "not putting effort". You don't automatically win by not having friendly fire -- it's not like Friendly Fire is the only way to kill the enemy, likewise the enemy team doesn't have that either -- so you both win? How does that work?

No FF or maybe reduced FF is meant to reduce the chances of griefing. And if you're shooting right, as in not shooting your teammate in the first place, this will barely change anything anyways. It also means that you don't accidentally hurt the rear of your allies especially when they are walking in front of your fire -- of course if you do want to hurt them for being in your line of fire, then of course you wouldn't want this.

[thievingmagpi]

The6thMessenger, on 17 November 2020 - 11:29 PM, said:

That's an incredibly unrelated tangent.

Nope, it's not at all. There is literally zero reason to remove friendly fire. If you're having issues shooting too many friendlies or being shot by too much, learn to play better. Simple as that. Doesn't need dumbing down.

The6thMessenger, on 17 November 2020 - 11:29 PM, said:

No FF or maybe reduced FF is meant to reduce the chances of griefing.

A non issue.

The6thMessenger, on 17 November 2020 - 11:29 PM, said:

And if you're shooting right, as in not shooting your teammate in the first place, this will barely change anything anyways.

Other than the absolute dumbening effect it will have on the game.

The6thMessenger, on 17 November 2020 - 11:29 PM, said:

It also means that you don't accidentally hurt the rear of your allies especially when they are walking in front of your fire

I never worry about this and neither should anyone capable of moving their mouse.

[The6thMessenger]

thievingmagpi, on 18 November 2020 - 12:35 AM, said:

Nope, it's not at all.

Yes it is. The argument of basically "we might as well", is just Slippery Slope Fallacy.

All I suggested is removal/reduction of FF, all those other dumb-down features is your idea, on your misguided understanding of "dumbing down" as the goal, instead of merely a side-effect.

thievingmagpi, on 18 November 2020 - 12:35 AM, said:

There is literally zero reason to remove friendly fire. If you're having issues shooting too many friendlies or being shot by too much, learn to play better. Simple as that. Doesn't need dumbing down.

No FF is a lot simpler actually because it's just as switch, getting other people to learn is harder.

I have no problem shooting the enemy. My concern is other people being dumb, and a fringe of those dumb people are intentionally dumb - like poor Arty placement.

You might not like your game being "dumbed down", but I don't like being sacrificial lamb to dumb decisions of others. I say "dumb it down" and let the majority of people have their fun, it's not like it'll heavily affect people like you anyways since you're too good to get shot by your own teammate.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 November 2020 - 03:03 AM.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

#FriendlyFire

Personally vote to keep friendly fire in the game as it is!

While drawing friendly fire can be a pain in the buttock in some games, it is generally negligible - be it direct fire or (mis)placed strikes. Controlling one's trigger-finger and/or ripping the crosshair away once a teammate runs into your LoF is an essential part of this game IMHO. Collateral damage can happen, but is not intentional in 98% of occasions nor is it the rule.

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 18 November 2020 - 02:08 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

AnAnachronismAlive, on 18 November 2020 - 02:05 AM, said:

#FriendlyFire

Personally vote to keep friendly fire in the game as it is!

While drawing friendly fire can be a pain in the buttock in some games, it is generally negligible - be it direct fire or (mis)placed strikes. Controlling one's trigger-finger and/or ripping the crosshair away once a teammate runs into your LoF is an essential part of this game IMHO. Collateral damage can happen, but is not intentional in 98% of occasions nor is it the rule.

While I disagree with what you want. Your sentiment and argument is a lot more amicable.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 November 2020 - 03:06 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

The6thMessenger, on 18 November 2020 - 01:04 AM, said:

Yes it is. The argument of basically "we might as well", is just Slippery Slope Fallacy.

Nope, they're perfectly good examples of dumbing down gameplay.

The6thMessenger, on 18 November 2020 - 01:04 AM, said:

All I suggested is removal/reduction of FF, all those other dumb-down features is your idea, on your misguided understanding of "dumbing down" as the goal, instead of merely a side-effect.

And removing friendly fire is just as dumb.

The6thMessenger, on 18 November 2020 - 01:04 AM, said:

I have no problem shooting the enemy. My concern is other people being dumb, and a fringe of those dumb people are intentionally dumb - like poor Arty placement.

If you're taking team damage enough for it to be noticeable, you need to git gud.

The6thMessenger, on 18 November 2020 - 01:04 AM, said:

You might not like your game being "dumbed down", but I don't like being sacrificial lamb to dumb decisions of others.

Yep, sounds like you should work on positioning and map awareness.

The6thMessenger, on 18 November 2020 - 01:04 AM, said:

I say "dumb it down" and let the majority of people have their fun, it's not like it'll heavily affect people like you anyways since you're too good to get shot by your own teammate.

People playing terrible affects everyone who plays.

[Mycroft000]

Eliminate the skill tree for Mechs, it makes no sense for a mech to have skills. If you want to keep a skill tree, make it pilot based, and make additional pilots to keep in your Barracks purchasable(or even hirable and you have to pay them in C-Bills).

[Tarteso]

I have granted some "likes" to avoid double posting. Besides, and talking about heat management, I would add the complete removal of ghost heat. If the mech can manage the heat produced by 6ERLL alpha, why should it be limited further??? I have never understand the true logic of this "feature" beyond the nerfing (PGI rules of balance) of some mechs and, prominently, the whole assault class, which is supposed to be powerful. Such big alphas cannot be repeated round by round without extra time for cooldawn or consumables, anyway.

[TheGreyWolfe]

Thanks Daeron for your hard work and look forward to your efforts.

• Skill Tree / Grind Reduction

Few different aspects here; generally I'd suggest that the number of nodes are nearly halved and the effect values be doubled in concert. This in addition of both removing some nodes all together. I believe there's many heat management nodes that don't do much - and should be just removed. But, the precise balance isn't going to be something that can be worked out in the forums but I think simplification would be helpful to new players.

However, in the name of player experience (new and old) it should be considered that some nodes are automatic and/or standard equipment. There are nodes that I believe should have never been on the tree at all - those are 360 Targeting and Seismic Sensors (Zoom view should also be considered).

If 31st century war machine can't have 1 single rear view camera at least it can have those built in. This seems to be a easily implementable change that would be an instant effect on game play and make it both more challenging for veterans and provide more base capability to new players.

[Kaeseblock]

Daeron Katz, on 16 November 2020 - 01:10 PM, said:

• Skill Tree / Grind Reduction

I experimented with reducing the nodes of the skill tree a bit. The aim: Make one easily accessible skill tree that should fit into one 1080p screen.

I think the total number of nodes can be reduced to < 100 without changing too much, simply by merging nodes of the same type together and integrating nodes into the mech and mech equipment baseline. I'll list the nodes that I would remove including my reasoning below. To make the skill tree really accessible, but not too simple 50-60 would be the optimum I think. This can be reached by merging nodes of different types together (I assume the currentsystem supports that, since nodes can have multiple effects). Examples for such merged nodes:

• Durability Upgrade (Armor Hardening + Skeletal Density)
  
• Missle Upgrade (High Explosive + Missle Spread)
  
• Improved Strike Support (Advanced Salvos + Enhanced Spotting)
  
• Extra Strike Support (Additional Strike + Consumable Slot)
  
• Improved UAV (UAV Duration + UAV Range)
  
• ExtraUAV (Extra UAV + Consumable Slot)
  
• Improved Coolshot (Enhanced Coolshot + Coolshot Cooldown)
  
• Extra Coolshot (Additional Cool Shot + Consumable Slot)
  
• Sensors Upgrade (Sensor Range + Target Info Gathering + Target Decay)
  
• Jump Jet Upgrade (Heat Shielding + Vent Calibration + Vectoring + Speed Lift)
  
• Leg Mobility (Kinetic Burst + Hard Brake + Anchor Turn)
  
• Torso Mobility (Torso Yaw + Torso Speed + Torso Pitch)

There could be 1-5 nodes of each of the types above, to allow different levels of optimization while making the skill tree easier to understand. Since heat plays such an important role in the game, I suggest to leave Heat Containment and Coolrun at 5 nodes each. Maybe rename "Coolrun" to "Heat Dissipation", that sounds less like "Cooldown" from the weapons tree.

I think the following nodes can be integrated into the mech baseline or the mech equipment:

• Heat Gen (14x -0.75%) --> -7,5% buff to all weapons and remove these nodes, almost everybody skills these nodes in the weapons tree (I also think there should only be two node types regarding cooling, heat cap increases and heat dissipation increases, that's easy to understand)
  
• Velocity (5x +3%) --> buff all weapon velocities by 10% and remove these nodes, the builds that want weapon velocity skill it anyways and every other build (e. g. lase builds) actively avoid it since it has no effect for them
  
• Reinforced Chasing (8x -1,5%) --> -10% buff to all mechs, how many players really know how crits work in this game?
  
• Quick Ignition (5x -7%) --> just remove it and please add an "Override Enabledy by default" Checkbox to the options
  
• Speed Retention (3x +10%) --> +30% buff to all mechs and remove these nodes
  
• Improved Gyros (4x -17,5%) --> +35% buff to all mechs and remove these nodes
  
• Hill Climb (3x + 5%) --> +15% buff to all mechs and remove these nodes
  
• Enhanced ECM (2x 22,5%) --> buff ECM and remove these nodes

Daeron Katz, on 16 November 2020 - 01:10 PM, said:

• Remove Torso Heat Spike Mechanic
  
• Heat Management Values Not Representative of Heat Efficiency

Yes, please

[yrrot]

It would be nice if we had in-game notifications of events like:

• getting headshot kills
  
• dealing critical hits (not just damage to equipment, but actually triggering 1/2/3 crits and doing bonus structure damage)

Players shouldn't be questioning "was that a headshot" in chat to figure out how they killed a mech for something that should be an epic moment.

The critical hit system in itself is rather hidden from players. Having something in game to better display the system may reduce player confusion.

[The6thMessenger]

thievingmagpi, on 18 November 2020 - 11:24 AM, said:

Nope, they're perfectly good examples of dumbing down gameplay.

But the goal isn't to dumb down gameplay, it's just a side effect of it.

So yes, Slippery Slope.

thievingmagpi, on 18 November 2020 - 11:24 AM, said:

People playing terrible affects everyone who plays.

Funny how you can admit that, meanwhile just inflammatory argue "git gud", as if FF couldn't be afflicted to my other dumber teammates.

That's just inconsistent and hypocritical with your previous sentiment:

Spoiler

thievingmagpi, on 18 November 2020 - 11:24 AM, said:

If you're taking team damage enough for it to be noticeable, you need to git gud.

Yep, sounds like you should work on positioning and map awareness.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 November 2020 - 03:03 PM.

[Big-G]

How about the ability to purchase C-Bills using a sliding bar system for MC. And vice-versa, with a slight "fee" for C-Bills to MC conversion.

This will greatly improve usability as I'm constantly stuck with 1MC short of a 10 to make it usable. Giving me the ability to convert C-Bills (at a premium off course) to say 1MC would be great.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

TheGreyWolfe, on 18 November 2020 - 01:54 PM, said:

Thanks Daeron for your hard work and look forward to your efforts.

• Skill Tree / Grind Reduction

Few different aspects here; generally I'd suggest that the number of nodes are nearly halved and the effect values be doubled in concert. This in addition of both removing some nodes all together. I believe there's many heat management nodes that don't do much - and should be just removed. But, the precise balance isn't going to be something that can be worked out in the forums but I think simplification would be helpful to new players.



However, in the name of player experience (new and old) it should be considered that some nodes are automatic and/or standard equipment. There are nodes that I believe should have never been on the tree at all - those are 360 Targeting and Seismic Sensors (Zoom view should also be considered).

If 31st century war machine can't have 1 single rear view camera at least it can have those built in. This seems to be a easily implementable change that would be an instant effect on game play and make it both more challenging for veterans and provide more base capability to new players.

pic in Pic is a big problem from all modern rendering Engines and brings the Performance to low, its not like the old Days ,who only textured Polygons comes in the second View

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 19 November 2020 - 03:15 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

The6thMessenger, on 19 November 2020 - 12:18 AM, said:

Features:
> Mandatory 2 minute wait-time in waiting-area
> Can create orders while in the waiting area
> Can mess with Weapon Groups while in waiting area
> Can create path guide in the map by connecting orders sequentially. (like Move to Attack)
> Can still direct the match while dead.
> Adhering to Orders are rewarded: ( Bonuses has Cooldown )
- Hit Strikes provide extra bonuses
- Launching UAV on requested spot provide bonuses. Doubles Periodic UAV bonuses.
- Attack Area will provide extra bonuses while dealing damage to enemies on said area
- Defend Area will provide extra bonuses while taking damage, or dealing damage to enemy.
- Move to Area will provide extra bonuses upon arriving
- Follow will provide extra bonuses while in proximity of the Followed target
- Enemy Spotted only marks the area, not the individual. Respotting targets within Enemy Spotted Area provides extra bonuses
- Capture provides extra bonuses while capturing an area, provides even more bonuses while capping with lead.

The point of this is to add rewards in using and following orders, so that the directing feature of the Battle-Grid is adhered. Not everyone is coordinated, likewise uses the ingame voip, hell even teamspeak. This improved commanding system will make it easier to provide commands especially to strangers.

The mandatory wait in the start of the match is 2-fold, it allows players more time to connect. In addition, it will also give time for the leaders to talk to their team and formulate a plan. In addition of being able to draw

The rewards are necessary. Abusable? Sure, but they can improve teamwork by incentivising players in following the plan. NOBODY follows the battlegrid plan, or at least in my experience. I tried to direct, they only complained to me, that I assumed that they don't know how to play the game and/or the map.

What do you think?

[evil kerensky]

just get rid of the auxillary tree.

if youd like, make it so mastering a mech unlocks a second consumable slot.

[MechTech Dragoon]

Skill tree needs CHOICE AND a reduction in nodes.
The best examples of skill trees along the lines of what mwo uses is in mmo/rpgs. Look to them for guidance. In most skill trees, small generalized improvements will lead into larger boosts that alter gameplay. We need gameplay altering nodes, especially in terms of survivability and weaponry.

These can be things like a selectable drop down role tree, that will boost aspects of a mech and reduce others to fit a playstyle.

MWO is a tactical game, it requires roles and team composition. The 2 roles used in the game right now are Sniping and skirmishing. They are the most effective. There are no frontline tanks, or bruisers/brawlers, because mechs are unable to pack the survivability necessary to perform those roles effectively.

Weapon behaviour modifier nodes with lockouts. 3 choices, choosing one locks out of the other two.



Use mechdb as a reference for good heat management representation.

[TheGreyWolfe]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 18 November 2020 - 07:43 PM, said:

pic in Pic is a big problem from all modern rendering Engines and brings the Performance to low, its not like the old Days ,who only textured Polygons comes in the second View

Just to clarify; wasn't asking for Pic in Pic rear view camera as I'm aware of the limitations and I believe its been requested before. Heck, at this point I'd take a flashing red light to indicate an enemy was within 25m directly behind me and not firing at me.

The radar capability/cone, overall radar/ecm functionality, skill nodes, and detection systems[direction of incoming fire] are all game design decisions. While I could see improvement across the board there - the simple action of just giving all Mechs these skill nodes (360 Targeting + Seismic Sensors) would both increase new player experience and (IMHO) enhance the game for everyone by giving Mechs better built-in tech.