154 replies to this topic

[Bede19002]

Wildstreak, on 18 January 2021 - 07:15 PM, said:

It's it.

I mean what exactly is NASCAR in MWO?

[Bede19002]

Kroete, on 18 January 2021 - 07:52 AM, said:

Nascar is not a tactic, there is no "modern nascar", its just pure instinct,
one dog runs, the rest follows and the fast dogs chase the slow rabbids.

No thinking involved, not interaction needed, just follow some very old instincts, that why people do and often like it, Its the same as hunting a squirrel with half the team.
Same as politics, look around the world, the people want simple answers and get hooked by simple old patterns.
We are still not much more then animals in suits.

What do you expect people to do?

Getting caught isolated often means certain death.

I follow the group to stay alive.

[Wolfos31]

Y'all heard of "flanking" in military terms?

Nascar is just the desire to flank playing out across 24 players. Let me break it down:

1. A mech moves faster going forward than backwards.
2. With the exception of the glorious Urbie, no mech can fire directly behind it while moving forward.
3. Taking the above two points, when someone gets in your rear arc your choices are basically either run or turn and fight.
4. If a few players together are flanking, turning and fighting will result in your death anyway, so most people run.
5. People chase the retreating mechs. Rinse/Repeat

Flanking doesn't always happen counter-clockwise (what people call Nascar). It can happen clockwise too. It can also happen in other ways and sometimes it doesn't happen at all. Alpine peaks is one map where I rarely see the conventional nascar, as there isn't really a central feature to move around. Instead we get peeking across the central valley which I find pretty annoying in its own right if I'm in a short range mech.

If you are a slow assault I get the frustration when your team mates leave you for dead. In QP it's on you to communicate, explain what your top speed is, that you can't nascar, encourage people to stand their ground, or to counter rotate as a group. Or hell, have 3-4 assaults stand ground with some cover and have the fast movers harry the enemy into the anvil. I've done this in QP and had good reception as long as I'm clear about what my abilities are.

Nascar keeps happening because it's effective. And it's not "nascar" it's flanking. An ancient and effective military tactic. It's never gonna go away folks. So better to understand what it actually is, why it's effective, and how to counter it.

[Bede19002]

Wolfos31, on 19 January 2021 - 06:27 AM, said:

Y'all heard of "flanking" in military terms?

Nascar is just the desire to flank playing out across 24 players. Let me break it down:

1. A mech moves faster going forward than backwards.
2. With the exception of the glorious Urbie, no mech can fire directly behind it while moving forward.
3. Taking the above two points, when someone gets in your rear arc your choices are basically either run or turn and fight.
4. If a few players together are flanking, turning and fighting will result in your death anyway, so most people run.
5. People chase the retreating mechs. Rinse/Repeat

Flanking doesn't always happen counter-clockwise (what people call Nascar). It can happen clockwise too. It can also happen in other ways and sometimes it doesn't happen at all. Alpine peaks is one map where I rarely see the conventional nascar, as there isn't really a central feature to move around. Instead we get peeking across the central valley which I find pretty annoying in its own right if I'm in a short range mech.

If you are a slow assault I get the frustration when your team mates leave you for dead. In QP it's on you to communicate, explain what your top speed is, that you can't nascar, encourage people to stand their ground, or to counter rotate as a group. Or hell, have 3-4 assaults stand ground with some cover and have the fast movers harry the enemy into the anvil. I've done this in QP and had good reception as long as I'm clear about what my abilities are.

Nascar keeps happening because it's effective. And it's not "nascar" it's flanking. An ancient and effective military tactic. It's never gonna go away folks. So better to understand what it actually is, why it's effective, and how to counter it.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Vlad Ward]

FupDup, on 18 January 2021 - 01:40 PM, said:

NASCAR works mainly because it lets the team have a pre-built go-to plan they can always follow rather than everybody flopping around in separate directions. So yes, it is largely instinctual, and that's an advantage because oftentimes an okay plan executed effectively is better than a theoretically perfect plan executed poorly (and certainly better than no plan at all).

I usually don't mind NASCAR too much because my mechs can usually lead the circle or at least keep up with it. If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em.

I think you're confusing instinct with common sense. Shoot enemies more while getting shot at less? That's gaming 101.

[K O Z A K]

VonBruinwald, on 18 January 2021 - 04:11 PM, said:

It takes two teams to nascar, one team will win, nascar works every time.

it takes 1 team to nascar

[The pessimistic optimist]

Wolfos31, on 19 January 2021 - 06:27 AM, said:

Y'all heard of "flanking" in military terms?

Nascar is just the desire to flank playing out across 24 players. Let me break it down:

1. A mech moves faster going forward than backwards.
2. With the exception of the glorious Urbie, no mech can fire directly behind it while moving forward.
3. Taking the above two points, when someone gets in your rear arc your choices are basically either run or turn and fight.
4. If a few players together are flanking, turning and fighting will result in your death anyway, so most people run.
5. People chase the retreating mechs. Rinse/Repeat

Flanking doesn't always happen counter-clockwise (what people call Nascar). It can happen clockwise too. It can also happen in other ways and sometimes it doesn't happen at all. Alpine peaks is one map where I rarely see the conventional nascar, as there isn't really a central feature to move around. Instead we get peeking across the central valley which I find pretty annoying in its own right if I'm in a short range mech.

If you are a slow assault I get the frustration when your team mates leave you for dead. In QP it's on you to communicate, explain what your top speed is, that you can't nascar, encourage people to stand their ground, or to counter rotate as a group. Or hell, have 3-4 assaults stand ground with some cover and have the fast movers harry the enemy into the anvil. I've done this in QP and had good reception as long as I'm clear about what my abilities are.

Nascar keeps happening because it's effective. And it's not "nascar" it's flanking. An ancient and effective military tactic. It's never gonna go away folks. So better to understand what it actually is, why it's effective, and how to counter it.

Someone who gets the problem well done

Edited by SirSmokes, 19 January 2021 - 08:14 AM.

[K O Z A K]

Wolfos31, on 19 January 2021 - 06:27 AM, said:

Nascar keeps happening because it's effective. And it's not "nascar" it's flanking. An ancient and effective military tactic. It's never gonna go away folks. So better to understand what it actually is, why it's effective, and how to counter it.

nascar is not flanking, nascar is when your team encounters the enemy to the left, turns right and runs away counter clockwise everyone going their top speed whether it's 40kph or 150kph hoping their back is not the first to get shot out, nascar comes from cowardice and selfishness, it results in a team leaving power positions, holding which would significantly increase the chances of victory, if the enemy team holds the line against the nascar, especially in a power position, the nascar is doomed, because it inevitably spreads out due to the various speeds of mechs so the defending team has a 1) power position 2) pre aiming to where the nascar will come from and most importantly 3) numerical advantage in the fight as the enemy team tries to nascar into them, fastest mechs, first, then average speed mechs, and finally the slowest mechs

flanking is when your team encounters the enemy team, both sides dig in and start trading, and your 2-4 fastest mechs split off and go around the enemy to hit them in the back coordinated with additional pressure from the main force at the front, mostly differing from nascar in that you do not give up strong positions with your main body, and the line fighting mechs: assaults, heavies, mediums (except fast skirmishing mediums which can be flanking too) stay together and never show their backs to the enemy, so you still have an 8+ mech force that has guns towards enemy front line

[VonBruinwald]

Hazeclaw, on 19 January 2021 - 07:51 AM, said:

it takes 1 team to nascar

Hazeclaw, on 19 January 2021 - 08:28 AM, said:

nascar is not flanking, nascar is when your team encounters the enemy to the left, turns right and runs away counter clockwise everyone going their top speed whether it's 40kph or 150kph hoping their back is not the first to get shot out, nascar comes from cowardice and selfishness, it results in a team leaving power positions, holding which would significantly increase the chances of victory, if the enemy team holds the line against the nascar, especially in a power position, the nascar is doomed, because it inevitably spreads out due to the various speeds of mechs so the defending team has a 1) power position 2) pre aiming to where the nascar will come from and most importantly 3) numerical advantage in the fight as the enemy team tries to nascar into them, fastest mechs, first, then average speed mechs, and finally the slowest mechs

flanking is when your team encounters the enemy team, both sides dig in and start trading, and your 2-4 fastest mechs split off and go around the enemy to hit them in the back coordinated with additional pressure from the main force at the front, mostly differing from nascar in that you do not give up strong positions with your main body, and the line fighting mechs: assaults, heavies, mediums (except fast skirmishing mediums which can be flanking too) stay together and never show their backs to the enemy, so you still have an 8+ mech force that has guns towards enemy front line

You don't understand what Nascar is. lol.

It takes two teams to nascar...

[K O Z A K]

VonBruinwald, on 19 January 2021 - 08:43 AM, said:

You don't understand what Nascar is. lol.

It takes two teams to nascar...

You're not as funny as prototrollis

It takes one team to nascar...

[Grus]

Been an issue for years now.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Hazeclaw, on 19 January 2021 - 08:48 AM, said:

You're not as funny as prototrollis

It takes one team to nascar...

Indeed number of match's were I got the team to hold ground and face the NASCAR and we crushed them I would be rich

Edited by SirSmokes, 19 January 2021 - 12:28 PM.

[Bigbacon]

w0qj, on 16 January 2021 - 10:42 AM, said:

2. Also reinstate/increase the torso pitch for Assault mechs especially; cannot see their toes!
eg: Pilot an Annihilator and try to see a Piranha at your feet !

its mainly a clan light issue since they can boat the hell out of certain weapons but lots of lights were nerfed badly with the engine rework. Long ago lights were king...

playing a locust now and surviving is hard and I used to love locusts and was good with them. its VERY tough now.

lights with ECM and Stealth are the ones that are "good" in the right hands.

[w0qj]

"Nascar" is usually counter-clockwise because:

1) Many asymmetrical mech weapon layout favor the right torso for the heavy weapons.
Hence if in doubt, just alpha shoot enemy's right torso--and you knock out his right arm too, and that's 60% of his firepower gone.
That's the case for many mechs.
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de

2) Imagine you and your team is moving forward, and your enemy is ahead of you and to your left (ie: counter-clockwise Nascar rotation).
Your left arm & left torso is shielding your important right torso & right arm.
Hence your "least important 40% firepower left side of your mech" is protecting your important "60% firepower right side of your mech".

In short, you get to fire longer with your all important right torso & right arm,
which contains 60% of your mech's firepower.

3) Hence the "default" Nascar is counter-clockwise.

Bede19002, on 19 January 2021 - 05:49 AM, said:

...what exactly is NASCAR in MWO?

Wolfos31, on 19 January 2021 - 06:27 AM, said:

Y'all heard of "flanking" in military terms?

Nascar is just the desire to flank playing out across 24 players. Let me break it down:

...Flanking doesn't always happen counter-clockwise (what people call Nascar). It can happen clockwise too. It can also happen in other ways and sometimes it doesn't happen at all. Alpine peaks is one map where I rarely see the conventional nascar, as there isn't really a central feature to move around. Instead we get peeking across the central valley which I find pretty annoying in its own right if I'm in a short range mech.

...Nascar keeps happening because it's effective. And it's not "nascar" it's flanking. An ancient and effective military tactic. It's never gonna go away folks. So better to understand what it actually is, why it's effective, and how to counter it.

Edited by w0qj, 22 January 2021 - 07:06 AM.

[R Valentine]

martian, on 16 January 2021 - 10:30 AM, said:

Nascar has been a part of the game since the very beginning.

It's much worse now than it used to be. Before it only came up on a few maps around 50% of the time. Now it's every map on nearly every made, but conquest. I won't agree it's bad design, though. Just bad players. Lance placement and map design contribute somewhat, but in reality the game is perfectly playable without running around in a circle like a moron. People just refuse to learn another way to play. That's on them. People also refuse to play any game mode that makes them do something other than "shoot stompy robots", even if the hate the way shooting stompy robots plays out when they do it. "I don't want to stand in a square!" No, you'd rather run in circles and then complain about it. LOL.

[Vlad Ward]

Kiran Yagami, on 22 January 2021 - 07:17 AM, said:

It's much worse now than it used to be. Before it only came up on a few maps around 50% of the time. Now it's every map on nearly every made, but conquest. I won't agree it's bad design, though. Just bad players. Lance placement and map design contribute somewhat, but in reality the game is perfectly playable without running around in a circle like a moron. People just refuse to learn another way to play. That's on them. People also refuse to play any game mode that makes them do something other than "shoot stompy robots", even if the hate the way shooting stompy robots plays out when they do it. "I don't want to stand in a square!" No, you'd rather run in circles and then complain about it. LOL.

I mean, this shouldn't come as a surprise. The vast majority of the playerbase can't aim for crap. As a result, people see greater success rolling the dice on NASCAR than they do trying to stand and fight. It plays to their strengths (or weaknesses, if you prefer).

It's also why this behavior is really only endemic to Tier 1 and Tier 2. Tier 4 players don't do this. Of course, they still can't aim, so without the random factor of NASCAR they're probably never going to leave Tier 4. C'est la vie.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 22 January 2021 - 08:51 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Kiran Yagami, on 22 January 2021 - 07:17 AM, said:

It's much worse now than it used to be. Before it only came up on a few maps around 50% of the time. Now it's every map on nearly every made, but conquest. I won't agree it's bad design, though. Just bad players. Lance placement and map design contribute somewhat, but in reality the game is perfectly playable without running around in a circle like a moron. People just refuse to learn another way to play. That's on them. People also refuse to play any game mode that makes them do something other than "shoot stompy robots", even if the hate the way shooting stompy robots plays out when they do it. "I don't want to stand in a square!" No, you'd rather run in circles and then complain about it. LOL.

Why conquest is the best game mode

Edited by SirSmokes, 22 January 2021 - 08:53 AM.

[General Solo]

Swamp Monster, on 16 January 2021 - 10:22 AM, said:

You know as well as me that nascar is killing this game.
Badly designed maps that promote nascar, is killing this game.

Doubt it

Lack of match making is killing the game

FYI

[The pessimistic optimist]

General Solo, on 22 January 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

Doubt it

Lack of match making is killing the game

FYI

Can't fix the match making till they get player count up. Fewer player's makes a smaller pool to match players with. It's just statistics smaller pool of players means matches are statistically going to be worse.

Edited by SirSmokes, 22 January 2021 - 09:24 AM.

[General Solo]

Lonewolf71, on 17 January 2021 - 06:33 PM, said:

Actually that is not true. It never was that way in the beginning. It took years before nascar became a thing. Id say about halfway through the games lifespan players started to do it. Everyone hated it then, everyone hates it now. Its not the way the game was meant to be played. If we just lost a player to nascar then I am not surprised, because im sure alot of players have left the game because of it, and domination game mode is the absolute worst game mode because it promotes nascar.

meh, in those dayz they called it rotating
Maps are bigger to day
so it was relabeled NASCAR