69 replies to this topic

[The pessimistic optimist]

East Indy, on 24 January 2021 - 11:10 AM, said:

Ideally, PSR is a guide to place you in the most interesting, competitive match for your skill level — but that's all it is, in spite of being presented as a measure of experience in 2015(!) then left to sit for half a decade. If you need to focus on statistics, pick matchscore, K/D and survival rate since those are a direct reflection of how you play.

As far as 'Mech selection, FupDup said it best. There *is* a place for players who want to do it their own way, and although it's more challenging to find an offbeat build that performs well for you and the team, many of us find that trial and error the most rewarding part of the game.

This is the fun part of the game there 2000+ mechs and so many options and the mech lab. People can find ways to make new meta if they really dig in to the mech lab. I think it's lack of imagination on most peoples part. There is trial and error and sometimes you need to try new idea and work out the bugs or find idea is just not working at all.

[Wildstreak]

I don't care about PSR/Tier just like I did not care about ELO when we had it and never saw it.

This is why some other Online games have Casual and Competitive queues, I think you get a rating for the first but never see it.

Right now I run whatever I have the least XP on, once I was just running only Mechs with CB bonus for extra moolah.

Bulgroth, on 24 January 2021 - 05:29 AM, said:

Even ONE is too many in a game that needs to grow its player base to survive.

Grow? Trust me, this game would get worse if it grew.

Bulgroth, on 24 January 2021 - 10:18 AM, said:

I'd rather have tryhards and nascar than "stare at the enemy team across the chasm in frozen city" for 15 minutes like I saw in tier 5 all. the. damn. time. At least I get to do something productive.

If staring across chasms is all you get, you have not seen the worst of the masses.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Wildstreak, on 24 January 2021 - 12:17 PM, said:

If staring across chasms is all you get, you have not seen the worst of the masses.

Like heavy gauss Fafnir showing up at end of match fresh having not engaged all match

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 24 January 2021 - 10:29 AM, said:

In the past people have suggested PSR per-mech rather than per-player to avoid this issue, but then that might lead to other issues like good players intentionally choosing a "bad" mech to stomp n00bs with. People have also suggested MWO use some kind of BattleValue system but just like the board game that would inevitably have tons of loopholes in it to exploit.

I don't think there's really a way around it. It's the devs' responsibility to make sure all robots and guns are viable, but it's the players' responsibility to choose the right tools for the right job. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to take bleeding-edge meta builds, but it does mean you have to build around a practical, specific role and fulfill it effectively if you don't want your PSR bar to go down.

Might work with a rolling-PSR system that's based on your last 100 games, that way a player in their meta who suddenly stops caring ends up with a lower PSR much faster and an ePeener who goes full-try-hard rises quicker.

[The pessimistic optimist]

VonBruinwald, on 24 January 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

Might work with a rolling-PSR system that's based on your last 100 games, that way a player in their meta who suddenly stops caring ends up with a lower PSR much faster and an ePeener who goes full-try-hard rises quicker.

Why dose everyone think PSR will fix the game?

Edited by SirSmokes, 24 January 2021 - 01:10 PM.

[Elizander]

If things were ideal, there would be a casual quick play mode and a ranked mode where PSR exists. You'd derp around and have fun with friends in casual mode where there is no rating and only bring your best to ranked mode. We don't have a casual mode here and all we have is a ranked mode for both leveling/derping around/being serious.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Elizander, on 24 January 2021 - 02:08 PM, said:

If things were ideal, there would be a casual quick play mode and a ranked mode where PSR exists. You'd derp around and have fun with friends in casual mode where there is no rating and only bring your best to ranked mode. We don't have a casual mode here and all we have is a ranked mode for both leveling/derping around/being serious.

Yup so lets get groups out of quick play and make faction group mode. Quick play non ranked and faction ranked

Edited by SirSmokes, 24 January 2021 - 02:42 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

SirSmokes, on 24 January 2021 - 02:41 PM, said:

Yup so lets get groups out of quick play and make faction group mode. Quick play non ranked and faction ranked

Makes sense, FW comes with a "competitive players" warning. And let's be honest, any ePeener worth his salt wants his stats tested against the best and not the pug crowd.

Of course, they don't actually want this, artificial inflation is preferable to demonstrating talent.

[Heavy Money]

Its hard to relate to what OP is saying as my experience is mostly the opposite. When I was a noob, I dropped from T3 down to low T4. Then I got the hang of the maps and had a few lighbulbs go off in my head about positioning, and I rapidly climbed all the way into T1. Now I rank up in over 80% of my matches, even though I lose more than I win. And it happens regardless of what I play, if i'm solo or in a group. I might do less damage in a less competitive build, but its still enough. Because if you have decent aim and you don't die too quickly, then you can deal enough damage pretty much regardless of what you play in.

The OP is finding the tier system to be granular. When they play a top build, they are t1. When they play weaker builds, they are t2 or t3. That's basically how it ought to work.

My complaint is that there DOESN'T seem to be much granularity. Instead of it being a scale, it feels like a binary. IE, pilots who don't position correctly and shoot with decent accuracy are t5, and those who do are t1. The middle tiers don't seem to exist except as a buffer zone between the two extremes.

I am also observing this phenomenon taking place with other people i've gotten into the game. They were dealing 100-200dmg per match and dying early. Then they started dying less because they didn't expose themselves or overextend as much, but still their dmg wasn't much. It slowly crept up to averaging ~300 over several weeks of play. And then in the past weak, they all basically flipped to dealing ~600dmg per match and multiple KMDD, and often up to 800. Before they never ranked up, now they rank up more than not, even though our win:loss is still below 1:1. I expect that they will now all climb straight up to t1 without any pause in the middle tiers, as I did.

So the question is, how do we balance a PSR system where both the OP and me exist, with our totally opposite experience of the same PSR system?

Elizander, on 24 January 2021 - 02:08 PM, said:

If things were ideal, there would be a casual quick play mode and a ranked mode where PSR exists. You'd derp around and have fun with friends in casual mode where there is no rating and only bring your best to ranked mode. We don't have a casual mode here and all we have is a ranked mode for both leveling/derping around/being serious.

If we had that, people would complain about stomps in the casual play even more than they do in quick play now. I see the PSR system's main purpose as trying to protect new players from experienced ones so they don't quit. It certainly isn't very good at matching players based on skill, as we see a big difference in performance between even different t1's. (I'd wager that the high end t1's are further from the low end t1's than t2's are from t5's.)

[Kroete]

Bulgroth, on 24 January 2021 - 04:21 AM, said:

This meter struggle cost me my boyfriend enjoying this game and caused him to quit after breaking his keyboard and mouse after dropping down to tier 4.

He dropped down to get matches that match his skill, mech or mood.
Breaking things because he is not as good as he though, in a video game,
sounds like a bigger, underlying problem. Watch out for him!

Edited by Kroete, 24 January 2021 - 06:10 PM.

[crazytimes]

VonBruinwald, on 24 January 2021 - 03:14 PM, said:

Of course, they don't actually want this, artificial inflation is preferable to demonstrating talent.

Not sure man... I feel that outside of actual paid e-sports, almost no one really cares what 'talent' anyone has. It's definitely not going to help much on the dating scene, looks terrible on a resume and even my kids are a bit ambivalent about my mech skills.

If you think no one plays faction for that reason... I think you've missed the mark.

[PocketYoda]

While i agree with you to some extent i feel PSRs need to go and everyone just fights everyone.. Which i assume is whats happening already with the matchmaker and low pop.

Let people be competitive asses in Faction play or other games..

SirSmokes, on 24 January 2021 - 01:10 PM, said:

Why dose everyone think PSR will fix the game?

It Never will because customers are different, not all of use care about winning 24/7.. Some of us like to build stupid crazy **** in our mech bays and throw it out into the wild like mad scientists did with Covid.

crazytimes, on 24 January 2021 - 06:26 PM, said:

Not sure man... I feel that outside of actual paid e-sports, almost no one really cares what 'talent' anyone has. It's definitely not going to help much on the dating scene, looks terrible on a resume and even my kids are a bit ambivalent about my mech skills.

If you think no one plays faction for that reason... I think you've missed the mark.

100% on this.. I also don't like sports of any kind.

Edited by Samial, 24 January 2021 - 07:33 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Samial, on 24 January 2021 - 07:27 PM, said:

While i agree with you to some extent i feel PSRs need to go and everyone just fights everyone.. Which i assume is whats happening already with the matchmaker and low pop.

Let people be competitive asses in Faction play or other games..


It Never will because customers are different, not all of use care about winning 24/7.. Some of us like to build stupid crazy **** in our mech bays and throw it out into the wild like mad scientists did with Covid.


100% on this.. I also don't like sports of any kind.

The most complained about thing on this forums is groups, and one of the main reasons they are complained about is that they are seen as a way for more experienced and coordinated players to get access to less skilled players in order to stomp them (baby seal clubbing.) The reason this works is because the PSR system isn't really respected by groups. When i drop solo or with my t1 friends, i get mostly high tier opponents, unless pop is really bad. When I drop in a group with my t5 friends, we're certainly getting lower tier groups.

As I said in my previous post, PSR is important for protecting newer players from just being endlessly stomped by more experienced or more talented players. (I have argued that groups shouldn't necessarily be removed from the queue, but I certainly think their PSR should be taken into account better.)

Removing PSR would make things way worse. Even if PSR was merely a proxy for time played, like it used to be, that's still doing something to protect new players.

Edited by Heavy Money, 24 January 2021 - 07:47 PM.

[John Bronco]

We saw how matches played without PSR last July when everyone was reset to T3.

It was the biggest seal clubbing this game has ever seen.

PSR may suck, but it's far better than no matchmaking at all.

[Vlad Ward]

Samial, on 24 January 2021 - 07:27 PM, said:

While i agree with you to some extent i feel PSRs need to go and everyone just fights everyone.. Which i assume is whats happening already with the matchmaker and low pop.

Let people be competitive asses in Faction play or other games..

Not even close. People vastly overestimate the actual PSR difference between them and their teammates/opponents.

My PSR was reset in December, so I've played in all 5 tiers over the last few weeks. The differences are extremely noticeable. That didn't stop Tier 3's from getting on comms and screaming about the slightly better Tier 3's they dropped against and how they were definitely "from Tier 1 because of the MM."

It's just dumb crap people tell themselves to rationalize losing.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 24 January 2021 - 08:41 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Heavy Money, on 24 January 2021 - 05:42 PM, said:

If we had that, people would complain about stomps in the casual play even more than they do in quick play now. I see the PSR system's main purpose as trying to protect new players from experienced ones so they don't quit. It certainly isn't very good at matching players based on skill, as we see a big difference in performance between even different t1's. (I'd wager that the high end t1's are further from the low end t1's than t2's are from t5's.)

None sense if it was unranked solo drops in quick play and faction for ranked games for team play it would be better

Edited by SirSmokes, 25 January 2021 - 02:22 AM.

[GARION26]

Hazeclaw said:

1611509103[/url]' post='6371685']

This is correct, PSR should rate you based on how you perform in game, not based on "if I ran meta mechs like those tryhards I would be tier w/e" ideas in peoples heads. If you run meme/unskilled/unfamiliar/terrible build mechs, the system recognizes you scores in them and tries to match you with other players who play mechs like that. Why the heck would you want to drop with your new unskilled, unfamiliar mech you're messing with into tier 1 mega meta 4 man group try hard nascar game

This 1000 times this
PSR is there so we try and get roughly equally effective players in matches so we get better quality (read as “fairly equal chances to win on both sides”) games.


If you believe using an unskilled mech, or a lore based build mech gives you worse results you want your PSR to reflect it.


If you think having the best gaming computer, boating overpowered weapon X, using only assaults or super fast lights, Clan, being in a group, etc gives someone else an unfair advantage over other players their PSR and matchmaker will reflect it and move them away from people who don’t have those advantages.


Whatever advantages and disadvantages a player has you want their PSR to move in response so matchmaker can try and match players up based on how effective in game they are expected to be in their next match.
The release valves on matchmaker are set to go off at 4 minutes. Meaning tier restrictions disappear if a match isn’t made in 4 minutes. Being in tier 5 couldn’t get you a 15 minute wait time. I am tier 4 (in a high population time zone as I am US based) and My usual wait is 1-60 seconds.


Matchscore, matchmaker and PSR aren’t perfect but you get better quality matches by a system that uses them then if we didn’t have them.

Edited by GARION26, 25 January 2021 - 04:45 AM.

[VonBruinwald]

Heavy Money, on 24 January 2021 - 07:47 PM, said:

(I have argued that groups shouldn't necessarily be removed from the queue, but I certainly think their PSR should be taken into account better.)

That's the biggest problem, groups break the MM as it cannot balance group PSR within teams. A 4-man of potatoes will always drag the team down and a 4-man of try-hards will always have an advantage unless there happens to be an equivalently skilled group on the opposite team.

The solution is either to remove groups or fix the MM. And I doubt the latter is going to happen.

BlaizerP, on 24 January 2021 - 08:10 PM, said:

We saw how matches played without PSR last July when everyone was reset to T3.

It was the biggest seal clubbing this game has ever seen.

PSR may suck, but it's far better than no matchmaking at all.

I swear, we get better balanced games on the PTS servers where there's literally zero MMing.

[Bud Crue]

In term of meta vs meme mechs, the ole nugget that good players can do well in practically any mech is largely true from what I have seen. For the rest of us, yes, running meta is going to give you a better time, but if you run meta but still play stupidly, it isn't going to be that noticeable of a difference. Personally I save meme mechs for shi77y mech Wednesdays, or if I am playing solo and trying to test something out. Apropos, running meme mechs in a group of bad/average players makes no noticeable difference in the match outcome. Bad players running bad mechs are not suddenly transformed into unstoppable seal clubbing powerhouses any more than they are when they run good mechs despite some folks around here believing otherwise.

In regard to PSR. It's a rigged system that can easily be manipulated to provide you with majority of upward movement -if you want. AMS and consumables can get a player who ought to otherwise be T3 (at best) up to T1, even if that player plays otherwise fairly poorly. Running good mechs, with good builds, skillfully, will undoubtedly get you there more quickly, but if tier really means that much to you, but you're a hack at the game, there are indeed ways to get to T1 that have less to do with skill and more to do with taking advantage of the system for you to utilize; however foolish it may be to utilize them.

Note: If you happen to be one of these people who insist on playing the game in a manner that is ill-advised or contrary to the way the game is designed to be played, then taking advantage of the PSR system to rise to T1 will just ruin what little enjoyment you have of playing the game in the manner you desire. In other words, if you like playing mixed build mediums with no leg armor, for example, then perhaps you should be content to stay in T5, rather than be obsessed with raising your tier and playing against those dreaded meta running try-hards.

[Vlad Ward]

It's not that it can't. What it appears to do is use group mean PSR as an effective PSR for the whole group. A group consisting of T1 and T5 players would be treated effectively as T3. The T5s would underperform and the T1 would overperform but all things being equal it'd come out in the wash.

The bigger (temporary) issue at the present time is T1-level players who are in T4 or T5 due to inactivity and the December reset. I had to play hundreds of games after the reset to grind back to T1. Most of my friends have played under 100 since then. They're easily T1-T2 in skill and builds, but the MM has them in T4 or low T3. They don't play nearly as often as I do, so it may be months before they're in the correct tier.

MWO would honestly benefit tremendously from explicit placement matches with seasonal resets.