74 replies to this topic

[ZortPointNarf]

IanDresarie, on 04 February 2021 - 02:34 AM, said:

amplifying these points here. AMS is fine, an IS-LRM40 can get through enough to reliably do 600+ damage a game if you position well. At most, Clan-ATM might need a tiny boost to missile health? Obviously I lack the data so I could be completely wrong, but it feels like ATMs (and Clan Missiles in general) get countered by AMS a lot harder than IS-Missiles. Which I know is intentional, I just wonder if the current extent of the difference is intentional.

Since I play both can confirm, the Corsair can stop a chain firing SNV-A, I think they need to reduce the time between missiles leaving the tubes just a smidge, like 10% faster and it should be able to reliably punch through. If there are any other lerms being fired, the corsair eats it. You need about 8 AMS in total to completely stop lerms, but since most people go for damage instead you almost never see it.
I run AMS on the vast majority of my mechs, and lerm-cancer has killed me less than 5 times in 2.3k hours of games, so maybe I am just really lucky or AMS actually works as intended.

[Der BierVampiR]

Thank you Daeron for this video and those added timestamps. The timestamps are a great addition to get into the know in quick time.

IanDresarie, on 04 February 2021 - 02:34 AM, said:

At most, Clan-ATM might need a tiny boost to missile health? Obviously I lack the data so I could be completely wrong, but it feels like ATMs (and Clan Missiles in general) get countered by AMS a lot harder than IS-Missiles. Which I know is intentional, I just wonder if the current extent of the difference is intentional.

Sorry pal but yes you are wrong.

The ATM Spam is already bad enough. Because ATMs are doing insane damage in close range the missiles can not get more health without being overpowered.

That IS-LRMs are better against AMS as there Clan counterparts are is true and intended from the devs, because IS-LRMs are far more heavier then there Clan counterparts. So this fact has to pay of for IS-LRM users.

Towards AMS in general: I love my Corsair A7 because of it's 4xAMS and the fact that we have so much LRM and ATM Spam in the game. I believe therefor that we should get more Variants of existing chassis in different weight classes with at least 3xAMS hard points. At least one Variant per weight class so i believe we need at least one more medium and one more heavy mech.

Edited by Der BierVampiR, 04 February 2021 - 04:12 AM.

[ZortPointNarf]

Der BierVampiR, on 04 February 2021 - 04:08 AM, said:

Thank you Daeron for this video and those added timestamps. The timestamps are a great addition to get into the know in quick time.



Sorry pal but yes you are wrong.

The ATM Spam is already bad enough. Because ATMs are doing insane damage in close range the missiles can not get more health without being overpowered.

That IS-LRMs are better against AMS as there Clan counterparts are is true and intended from the devs, because IS-LRMs are far more heavier then there Clan counterparts. So this fact has to pay of for IS-LRM users.

Towards AMS in general: I love my Corsair A7 because of it's 4xAMS and the fact that we have so much LRM and ATM Spam in the game. I believe therefor that we should get more Variants of existing chassis in different weight classes with at least 3xAMS hard points. At least one Variant per weight class so i believe we need at least one more medium and one more heavy mech.

I fully agree with this, ATM's wreck you even if you run AMS.
I like the idea of each weight class having a dedicated AMS boat (game rewards would need to start rewarding it to make it worthwhile on the lights and mediums though)

[Der BierVampiR]

ZortPointNarf, on 04 February 2021 - 04:27 AM, said:

I fully agree with this, ATM's wreck you even if you run AMS.
I like the idea of each weight class having a dedicated AMS boat (game rewards would need to start rewarding it to make it worthwhile on the lights and mediums though)

Absolutly ZortPointNarf, if we take for example the 4xAMS Piranha... what can this mech really bring into the field else then it's AMS? He basicly doesn't has any more tonnage for enough machine gun ammo so using his AMS should really pay of for those pilots.

[Coffeeghoul]

Speaking of 3 AMS hard points: Give the really bad Annihilator 1E a third AMS hp in the left torso. Maybe someone will play it then.

[General Solo]

Andrzej Lechrenski, on 03 February 2021 - 10:07 PM, said:

The biggest problem this game has is how much people want to complain about this game.

Thanks to whiney premads soup queue was created, FYI solo clubber

[w0qj]

OK, reviewed the Dev VLog in view of re-balancing match score, and less of those COR-7A 4x AMS pumping up the match score (also Kit Fox):

1) How about implementing a diminishing rate of return for progressively increasing the number of AMS on your mech?

Currently Feb 2021:
1xAMS = 1.0 unit of damage
2xAMS = 2.0 units of damage
3xAMS = 3.0 units of damage
4xAMS = 4.0 units of damage (ie: no diminishing returns as of Feb 2021)

ie:
Proposed: On Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion mechs:
1xAMS = 1.0 unit of damage
2xAMS = 1.8 units of damage
3xAMS = 2.5 units of damage
4xAMS = 3.1 units of damage (ie: better diminishing returns for Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion)

Proposed: On Standard Variant mechs:
1xAMS = 1.0 unit of damage
2xAMS = 1.5 units of damage
3xAMS = 1.9 units of damage
4xAMS = 2.2 units of damage (ie: accelerated diminishing returns for Standard_Variant mechs)

2) Advantages of above Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion vs Standard_Variant diminish rate of AMS damage return:

2a) Standard Variant under new system:
Standard Variant COR-7A with 4xAMS equipped = just over 2xAMS damage (actually 2.2 damage) as compared to the Feb-2021 system of 4.0 damage.

2b) Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion under new system:
~Propose $20 for the privilege of converting your favorite COR-7A standard variant to a *SPECIAL* COR-7A(S) with 30% CBills bonus.
~Converted Hero COR-7A(S): 4xAMS equipped = just over 3xAMS damage (actually 3.1 damage) proposed.
~(Compare this to Feb-2021 system of 4.0 damage).
~This creates a demand for Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion mechs with 4xAMS hard points for just US$20.

2c) At the same time, all existing mechs with just one (1x) AMS hard points will not get AMS-nerfed into oblivion.
(Which is a lot of existing mechs; most have just one AMS hard point!).

2d) Why stop there?
I propose US$20 to convert each and every Standard_Variant of any mech into Special Variants with +30% CBills bonus.
US$20 for MCII-B >> MCII-B(S) with +30% CBills bonus!
US$20 for FLE-20 >> FLE-20(S) with +30% CBills bonus!
US$20 for MAL-MX90 >> MAL-MX90(S) with +30% CBills bonus!
US$20 for BAS-A >> BAS-A(S) with +30% CBills bonus!
US$20 for MAD-IIC-D >> MAD-IIC-D(S) with +30% CBills bonus!

3) I do realize this might deviate somewhat from TableTop (TT) MechWarrior for AMS damage.
This might be one step towards a MechWarrior-themed game, rather than a literal interpretation of TT MechWarrior as ported into MWO.

w0qj, on 03 February 2021 - 07:47 PM, said:

I'm against further nerfing of AMS.
AMS as it is utter garbage, with players regularly seen not even bothering to equip it as a result.
Only when one has both (2) AMS Skill Nodes activated, the AMS (if you only have 1x AMS on your mech) is half decent.

A further nerfing of AMS means many mechs effectively *no*longer*has*any*AMS*protection.

==>On a side note, this proposed AMS nerfing may be a precursor of new/upcoming mach variants with 2x AMS as a de facto standard.

Edited by w0qj, 04 February 2021 - 09:28 AM.

[ZortPointNarf]

w0qj, on 04 February 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

snip

I feel this diminishes the impact of taking the extra AMS, it takes space and heat, those impact your play.

I do really like this idea as a way to limit the over-inflated game score from AMS.

[Hellfire666]

More talk and still nothing to show for it.

Maybe if PGI talked less and dev'd more something might actually get done?

[Far Reach]

Quad AMS Piranna is the bees knees.
3 reg and one laser AMS, with 1ton ammo 8MG's and 3 er smalls - who says it can't do 3 kmdd's and 700 dmg in a round?
On top of the 900 dmg missile score.

Also: this "drama" is the saddest thing you've done yet, and you guys were already at rock bottom respect.
Imagine being offended by someone who posts: "things go noise, I dumb. hurrdurr!"

Less in-touch than the Canadian government. Think hard about that.

TLDR: Bugmaen kneejerks induce tight squints.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lockheed_, on 04 February 2021 - 12:02 PM, said:

sounds like everyone who wants AMS to be nerfed runs a LURM boat and does so poorly…

That's what I'm hearing as well.

[D V Devnull]

Lockheed_, on 04 February 2021 - 12:02 PM, said:

sounds like everyone who wants AMS to be nerfed runs a LURM boat and does so poorly…

Gas Guzzler, on 04 February 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

That's what I'm hearing as well.

Morbidly, the last group that I heard wanted AMS to be nerfed was a crowd of people who wanted it being used less than Ballistic/Energy Weapons on the field. They were not really thinking about any Missiles, but instead about just forcing everyone to play a Whirlpool NASCAR Brawl all the time with only their method of play and limited choice of Weapons (again, Ballistic/Energy only) equipped. They were wrongfully complaining that AMS should not be able to impact Match Score like how actual damage does. They do not understand that good AMS usage takes considerable skill & positioning to make it work properly, because you must shift about while staying with your Team for it to actually function at all. The problem is that if the AMS Match Score gets nerfed to the awful degree which they desire, than it devalues the Role-specific option of Support by the PIR-A and its' Quad AMS HardPoints (or even the KFX-C's 3x AMS Arm, as well as some others I know people will find and call out) when you have a Maxed Engine equipped. Essentially, what they're out to do is to change MWO into a bad mirror of "Hawken" mixed with "Call Of Duty"/"Halo" where no AMS & Lock-On Missiles exist ever again, and that is simply something which MechWarrior in general (particularly through precedence of multiple previous PC/Console Games and the TableTop Versions too) is just not! It would effectively doom all the Light/Assault Mechs which exist, merely to meet their ugly mentality and selfish style of gameplay, which will end up sending MWO permanently down the drain.



@ Everyone reading this Thread —— What the hell is this "gulag" which I keep hearing of, but NEVER really saw any discussion about? I have not been able to find any documentation of any kind. Frankly, this is one situation where I hope that whatever 'Daeron Katz' & 'Matt Newman' are seeing is one where they keep in mind people who don't have perfectly functional body/mind/technology for playing MWO with, or we're going to see MWO lose a lot of players in short order after some of these Monthly Patches arrive. People who can not put up with facetank brawling in any degree will quickly drop MWO like a bad habit, and those who have limits on how long they can reasonably handle Direct-Fire Weapons will also give up MWO entirely after some degree of time if they're pushed too far beyond their physical/mental/technological limits by Indirect-Fire Weapons being nerfed too hard. I am unfortunately one of the ones who got pushed too far once before, and even with a year-long break from MWO for myself, I am once-again starting to feel the strain here from the already-nerfed Indirect Missile Systems & Anti-Missile Systems both not having enough punch to either of them, and the limits on how much I can safely push myself on using any Direct-Fire Weapons at all. This beloved MWO game really does not need to lose any more population, and it needs to avoid pushing out to pasture the older-aged and/or somehow broken players (as well as anyone whose equipment simply can not handle the pressure all the time) from the current population.


Heck, where's the Tonnage Balancing based on a Total Tonnage Amount equalized for BOTH Teams that we should have in Matches instead of the old & lousy 3/3/3/3 system which really ruined how dynamic that a Match can be? I really liked when Matches were equal based only on Tonnage and not on Weight Class for any given Match that got played, and think it was some of the best Mech Tonnage Balance that MWO ever had! Anyone remember when you could have 2/4/2/5 or 3/1/4/4 or 4/1/5/2 or some other wild combo like that (for Light/Medium/Heavy/Assault) for both Teams on the field?



~D. V. "finally getting in a word about the 2021 February Developer Vlog Version of the Roadmap & MWO's Future" Devnull

[Gas Guzzler]

D V Devnull, on 04 February 2021 - 01:06 PM, said:

Morbidly, the last group that I heard wanted AMS to be nerfed was a crowd of people who wanted it being used less than Ballistic/Energy Weapons on the field. They were not really thinking about any Missiles, but instead about just forcing everyone to play a Whirlpool NASCAR Brawl all the time with only their method of play and limited choice of Weapons (again, Ballistic/Energy only) equipped. They were wrongfully complaining that AMS should not be able to impact Match Score like how actual damage does. They do not understand that good AMS usage takes considerable skill & positioning to make it work properly, because you must shift about while staying with your Team for it to actually function at all. The problem is that if the AMS Match Score gets nerfed to the awful degree which they desire, than it devalues the Role-specific option of Support by the PIR-A and its' Quad AMS HardPoints (or even the KFX-C's 3x AMS Arm, as well as some others I know people will find and call out) when you have a Maxed Engine equipped. Essentially, what they're out to do is to change MWO into a bad mirror of "Hawken" mixed with "Call Of Duty"/"Halo" where no AMS & Lock-On Missiles exist ever again, and that is simply something which MechWarrior in general (particularly through precedence of multiple previous PC/Console Games and the TableTop Versions too) is just not! It would effectively doom all the Light/Assault Mechs which exist, merely to meet their ugly mentality and selfish style of gameplay, which will end up sending MWO permanently down the drain.

Implicit bias is seen on your end here. The complaints I heard were specifically related to match score, in that AMS artificially inflates PSR. It does NOT take skill to run AMS. Any new player can throw 4 AMS on their mech and stand near their team and shoot down missiles. Its not about wanting AMS removed from the game, its simply lessening its impact on match score and PSR to make the matchmaker more effective.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 February 2021 - 01:11 PM.

[nuttyrat]

D V Devnull, on 04 February 2021 - 01:06 PM, said:

@ Everyone reading this Thread —— What the hell is this "gulag" which I keep hearing of, but NEVER really saw any discussion about? I have not been able to find any documentation of any kind. Frankly, this is one situation where I hope that whatever 'Daeron Katz' & 'Matt Newman' are seeing is one where they keep in mind people who don't have perfectly functional body/mind/technology for playing MWO with, or we're going to see MWO lose a lot of players in short order after some of these Monthly Patches arrive. People who can not put up with facetank brawling in any degree will quickly drop MWO like a bad habit, and those who have limits on how long they can reasonably handle Direct-Fire Weapons will also give up MWO entirely after some degree of time if they're pushed too far beyond their physical/mental/technological limits by Indirect-Fire Weapons being nerfed too hard. I am unfortunately one of the ones who got pushed too far once before, and even with a year-long break from MWO for myself, I am once-again starting to feel the strain here from the already-nerfed Indirect Missile Systems & Anti-Missile Systems both not having enough punch to either of them, and the limits on how much I can safely push myself on using any Direct-Fire Weapons at all. This beloved MWO game really does not need to lose any more population, and it needs to avoid pushing out to pasture the older-aged and/or somehow broken players (as well as anyone whose equipment simply can not handle the pressure all the time) from the current population.



~D. V. "finally getting in a word about the 2021 February Developer Vlog Version of the Roadmap & MWO's Future" Devnull

The Gulag is a collection of MWO players from all over the skill spectrum, from the top of the chain all the way down to potato's like me. We gathered shortly after PGI announced that changes were coming to theory-craft ideas that would bring people back while retaining the current populace. There were also some livestreams that covered our overall suggestions that we sent to PGI and a deep dive. You can watch those VODs here:

A Discussion to Improve MWO


A Discussion to Improve MWO #2

[Tacheyon]

Xaius, on 03 February 2021 - 05:09 PM, said:

I'm really hoping we see ams nerfs or more comprehensive lrm changes.
I like playing Lrms sometimes, and it is incredibly frustrating to get HARD countered by ams.

Personally, I think ams needs a range nerf, and non-lrm missiles need a health increase.
I'm okay with ams being an answer to lrms, but I hate when the enemy team has a single corsair and I can't hurt anyone on their team. I can't tell you how many times I alpha-strike with a missile boat and hardly tickle my target despite having clear line of sight, or how many times my missiles are obliterated before they even exit my mech. Ams should be a soft counter, and skilled lrm players should be able to play around the system.

I also feel that ams needs to be nerfed. Because how else are the LRM60-80 Supernovas, Madcats, Warhammers hiding in the backrow not sharing armour going to leech their kills? Sorry that there are mechs that counter lazy play like that.
Now I do play a LRM boat on occasion when I want to loath myself. But the only time I have a problem with high ams killing all my missiles is when i am shooting them from 700+m using indirect locking. When I have a LOS lock from 200-500m I get more missiles on my target. It's a simple thing to adjust your tactics based on what the OpFor has.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Hope the weapon balance changes do not flat out nerf anything. Please for the love of God fix the heat scaling and ghost heat issues with all lasers. I'm all for shaking up the meta if only it's going to create a positive reception.

[0IOIHIOI0]

Mechs that use ams and ecm should take structure damage say 1 per 3 seconds.

[LordNothing]

thanks for the official summery, that saves me a lot of time.

[Voice of Kerensky]

w0qj, on 04 February 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

OK, reviewed the Dev VLog in view of re-balancing match score, and less of those COR-7A 4x AMS pumping up the match score (also Kit Fox):

1) How about implementing a diminishing rate of return for progressively increasing the number of AMS on your mech?

Currently Feb 2021:
1xAMS = 1.0 unit of damage
2xAMS = 2.0 units of damage
3xAMS = 3.0 units of damage
4xAMS = 4.0 units of damage (ie: no diminishing returns as of Feb 2021)

ie:
Proposed: On Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion mechs:
1xAMS = 1.0 unit of damage
2xAMS = 1.8 units of damage
3xAMS = 2.5 units of damage
4xAMS = 3.1 units of damage (ie: better diminishing returns for Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion)

Proposed: On Standard Variant mechs:
1xAMS = 1.0 unit of damage
2xAMS = 1.5 units of damage
3xAMS = 1.9 units of damage
4xAMS = 2.2 units of damage (ie: accelerated diminishing returns for Standard_Variant mechs)

2) Advantages of above Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion vs Standard_Variant diminish rate of AMS damage return:

2a) Standard Variant under new system:
Standard Variant COR-7A with 4xAMS equipped = just over 2xAMS damage (actually 2.2 damage) as compared to the Feb-2021 system of 4.0 damage.

2b) Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion under new system:
~Propose $20 for the privilege of converting your favorite COR-7A standard variant to a *SPECIAL* COR-7A(S) with 30% CBills bonus.
~Converted Hero COR-7A(S): 4xAMS equipped = just over 3xAMS damage (actually 3.1 damage) proposed.
~(Compare this to Feb-2021 system of 4.0 damage).
~This creates a demand for Hero/Special/Loyalty/Champion mechs with 4xAMS hard points for just US$20.

2c) At the same time, all existing mechs with just one (1x) AMS hard points will not get AMS-nerfed into oblivion.
(Which is a lot of existing mechs; most have just one AMS hard point!).

2d) Why stop there?
I propose US$20 to convert each and every Standard_Variant of any mech into Special Variants with +30% CBills bonus.
US$20 for MCII-B >> MCII-B(S) with +30% CBills bonus!
US$20 for FLE-20 >> FLE-20(S) with +30% CBills bonus!
US$20 for MAL-MX90 >> MAL-MX90(S) with +30% CBills bonus!
US$20 for BAS-A >> BAS-A(S) with +30% CBills bonus!
US$20 for MAD-IIC-D >> MAD-IIC-D(S) with +30% CBills bonus!

3) I do realize this might deviate somewhat from TableTop (TT) MechWarrior for AMS damage.
This might be one step towards a MechWarrior-themed game, rather than a literal interpretation of TT MechWarrior as ported into MWO.

[redacted]

Tell me, by analogy, will we see a decrease in the dmg of Lurm boats depending on the number of missiles launched?
Will we also see a decrease in the health of each individual rocket?

[redacted

]Some of the players raised the question that the use of AMS boats unreasonably quickly raises the PSR. Ok, although I personally disagree with that.
No, these people are not proposing to lower the reward for destroyed missiles (I think this is the simplest solution to this contrived problem). No, these people suggest nerfing AMS, reducing their effectiveness.
Have you ever thought about where these impressive numbers of missiles down come from? Are not you bringing these thousands of missiles to the battlefield? Are you did't standing behind cover with your tails between your legs and firing lurms from a safe distance, while allowing the AMS to work most efficiently?
Don't you know how to build causal relationships at all? Of course, if you do not know how to build these connections, then you can offer the correct solution to the problem (contrived) only in a random way. From the wrong premise, the correct conclusion can only be obtained by randomly.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 05 February 2021 - 05:21 AM.

[crazytimes]

Outside of missile events, and the #WHOOSH, how much actual lurming is happening at the tier 1 level?

Now by extension, how much of the tier 1 population is cluttering up your precious match purity with filthy AMS spam that is all that is keeping them out of tier 5?

Of all the issues in MWO, AMS match score doesn't rate anywhere on the meaningful list. Worry about the heat bug, spawn locations, maybe even actual new content first.