211 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

SirSmokes, on 09 February 2021 - 03:09 AM, said:

Look just trying to find solutions that keep those guy from going ape **** over "low skill weapons"

I don't know what to tell you, the answer is probably make them high-skill weapons as well, to the detriment of the rest of the playerbase. The comp just exactly wants the casual to play like comp.

Look at MWO now, do you honestly think that there's hope for this? PGI can try make this a better game all they like (and based on their track record, they aren't going to), they aren't going to retain players when they keep getting beat to the ground by veterans.

They can invoke "git gud" all they like, they get what they deserve, a dying game.

[The pessimistic optimist]

The6thMessenger, on 09 February 2021 - 03:24 AM, said:

I don't know what to tell you, the answer is probably make them high-skill weapons as well, to the detriment of the rest of the playerbase. The comp just exactly wants the casual to play like comp.

Look at MWO now, do you honestly think that there's hope for this? PGI can try make this a better game all they like (and based on their track record, they aren't going to), they aren't going to retain players when they keep getting beat to the ground by veterans.

They can invoke "git gud" all they like, they get what they deserve, a dying game.

I know I know *sigh* just take AMS and ECM but that is really hard it seems.

Edited by SirSmokes, 09 February 2021 - 03:50 AM.

[KW Driver]

SirSmokes, on 06 February 2021 - 01:33 PM, said:

It already good no one takes it. Low ammo count is simplest thing to do

It isn't good... just finished a round where my Anni lasted 47 SECONDS. MM put me with 3 lights, who of course bolted off, and I got spotted mere steps out of spawn and got hit for 700 damage.. AMS didn't do squat.. And I have AMS on every single mech in my hangar, and it never does anything worthwhile. Indirect fire spamming is the absolute worst thing in this game, and there is no defense for it.

[The pessimistic optimist]

KW Driver, on 09 February 2021 - 06:22 AM, said:

It isn't good... just finished a round where my Anni lasted 47 SECONDS. MM put me with 3 lights, who of course bolted off, and I got spotted mere steps out of spawn and got hit for 700 damage.. AMS didn't do squat.. And I have AMS on every single mech in my hangar, and it never does anything worthwhile. Indirect fire spamming is the absolute worst thing in this game, and there is no defense for it.

No one takes it self fulling prophecy and LRMs are part of Mechwarrior always have bin. It dose squat because there is not enough on the battlefield. And yes slow moving assault mech is dead meat if left behind yes

Edited by SirSmokes, 09 February 2021 - 06:30 AM.

[Dozer6]

The6thMessenger, on 09 February 2021 - 03:24 AM, said:

I don't know what to tell you, the answer is probably make them high-skill weapons as well, to the detriment of the rest of the playerbase. The comp just exactly wants the casual to play like comp.

Look at MWO now, do you honestly think that there's hope for this? PGI can try make this a better game all they like (and based on their track record, they aren't going to), they aren't going to retain players when they keep getting beat to the ground by veterans.

They can invoke "git gud" all they like, they get what they deserve, a dying game.

Lets take all the weapons out of the game, all of them. We can throw boulders punches and kick each other to death.

Oh wait what am i saying, then we'd have to listen to all the yoloqqgggitgudgetwrekdtscrubscheckmystatsmystatsmystatsnoobswannabeproplayah's cry because they aren't "proper" mech's...

[KW Driver]

Kroete, on 08 February 2021 - 10:54 PM, said:

No bending, take more tubes to compensate that,
better ams, take more tubes to compensate that,
better ecm, take more tubes to compensate that,
nerfed artemis gives you some tons for more tubes,
less heat gives you the option to use more tubes,
more ammo a ton gives you the option to use more tubes,
PGi and the players wanted lrms more spammy.

And no there is no need to nerf lrms more, take the ******* ams and stop crying,
if you mean ams is ****, try a catapult with lrm 30 against 4 or 6 ams and we can talk again.

No ams, no cry!

and you never jump on a mech fresh out of spawn because a Locust or Flea can cover half the map in 15 seconds, right? because you know, MM doesn't always place you with like mechs that can spam AMS. and a single AMS won't do jack squat to more than 1 LRM boat shooting at you, heck it won't do squat to a single boat that has more than 2 launchers... And if you refuse to play the wide open maps, then you get punished for early disco... AMS works fine in S7, but doesn't work worth a hill of beans for anything else, because you have no control over what lance the MM decides to dump you into, and no control over what other players do.

[The pessimistic optimist]

KW Driver, on 09 February 2021 - 06:34 AM, said:

and you never jump on a mech fresh out of spawn because a Locust or Flea can cover half the map in 15 seconds, right? because you know, MM doesn't always place you with like mechs that can spam AMS. and a single AMS won't do jack squat to more than 1 LRM boat shooting at you, heck it won't do squat to a single boat that has more than 2 launchers... And if you refuse to play the wide open maps, then you get punished for early disco... AMS works fine in S7, but doesn't work worth a hill of beans for anything else, because you have no control over what lance the MM decides to dump you into, and no control over what other players do.

But when its there it works great so how do we fix this? I seen huge clouds of missiles for more then one mech get shredded by mechs with a lot ams. I am still for making maintaining lock harder so if yea send someone to harass the lrm mechs they will lose that lock

Edited by SirSmokes, 09 February 2021 - 06:43 AM.

[KW Driver]

SirSmokes, on 09 February 2021 - 06:39 AM, said:

But when its there it works great so how do we fix this? I seen huge clouds of missiles for more then one mech get shredded by mechs with a lot ams. I am still for making maintaining lock harder so if yea send someone to harass the lrm mechs they will lose that lock

SirSmokes, on 09 February 2021 - 06:24 AM, said:

No one takes it self fulling prophecy and LRMs are part of Mechwarrior always have bin. It dose squat because there is not enough on the battlefield. And yes slow moving assault mech is dead meat if left behind yes

Then My suggestion would be find a way to ensure there aren't enough LRMs on the battlefield, too.. I know they have always been a part of Mechwarrior and Battletech (I was around when Battletech was invented). Reasoning would have it that if the LRMs were actually all that effective, then lore wouldn't have room for any other type of mech at all, because LRMs would rule every battlefield in the universe. It would only be a matter of how many launchers a given chassis could support. But since that is not the case, then obviously the platform is far more powerful in the video game world than it ever was in the tabletop or pen and paper world.. Now maybe because in TT and PP rules, the number of missiles reaching the target is random, and then the AMS randomly whittles down that number further, so you can theoretically have an LRM-20 have only 8 missiles even make it to the target and then 4 of them get shot down by AMS.. So, if that was the case in the video game, would we have so much LRM Spam? I think not.. but the video game guarantees that if you have a lock, all the missiles make it to the target and don't miss, and AMS can only deal with 20% of them (I think), and so, no matter what, the LRM wins every time. they can shoot indirectly, and even if you kill the spotting mech, their skill perks for maintaining a lock after losing LOS keeps them shooting with zero chance of detection or return fire.

So, either have it much harder to maintain a lock (especially in Indirect fire modes), or bring in the random generator (aka 2d6 against a "to-hit" table) from the original game that reduces the number of viable warheads... Personally I prefer the latter, as it reduces the power of mutiple players spamming them.. it becomes a less effective system, and therefore less likely to be exploited...

Edited by KW Driver, 09 February 2021 - 07:04 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

KW Driver, on 09 February 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

Then My suggestion would be find a way to ensure there aren't enough LRMs on the battlefield, too.. I know they have always been a part of Mechwarrior and Battletech (I was around when Battletech was invented). Reasoning would have it that if the LRMs were actually all that effective, then lore wouldn't have room for any other type of mech at all, because LRMs would rule every battlefield in the universe. It would only be a matter of how many launchers a given chassis could support. But since that is not the case, then obviously the platform is far more powerful in the video game world than it ever was in the tabletop or pen and paper world.. Now maybe because in TT and PP rules, the number of missiles reaching the target is random, and then the AMS randomly whittles down that number further, so you can theoretically have an LRM-20 have only 8 missiles even make it to the target and then 4 of them get shot down by AMS.. So, if that was the case in the video game, would we have so much LRM Spam? I think not.. but the video game guarantees that if you have a lock, all the missiles make it to the target and don't miss, and AMS can only deal with 20% of them (I think), and so, no matter what, the LRM wins every time. they can shoot indirectly, and even if you kill the spotting mech, their skill perks for maintaining a lock after losing LOS keeps them shooting with zero chance of detection or return fire.

So, either have it much harder to maintain a lock (especially in Indirect fire modes), or bring in the random generator (aka 2d6 against a "to-hit" table) from the original game that reduces the number of viable warheads... Personally I prefer the latter, as it reduces the power of mutiple players spamming them.. it becomes a less effective system, and therefore less likely to be exploited...

Table top is dice based game you can get super luck on a roll and have everything hit as well. This is why when they just took table top values and put them in to a real-time game it was broken. I try to explain this to table top purists. I have seen LRM be just as nasty table top when RN Jesus is on someones side

Edited by SirSmokes, 09 February 2021 - 11:35 AM.

[KW Driver]

And if every weapon I was exposed to when I was in the Army worked as well as it does on MWO, we'd never have a casualty. Nothing in the world EVER works as well as it's advertised, nothing... and to have everything always hit without any chance of failure is beyond unrealistic, even in a future alternate universe. I'm not a purist by any means, and I am not against players using LRMs, I'm against a system that guarantees perfect success with no repercussions..

[The pessimistic optimist]

KW Driver, on 09 February 2021 - 07:17 AM, said:

And if every weapon I was exposed to when I was in the Army worked as well as it does on MWO, we'd never have a casualty. Nothing in the world EVER works as well as it's advertised, nothing... and to have everything always hit without any chance of failure is beyond unrealistic, even in a future alternate universe. I'm not a purist by any means, and I am not against players using LRMs, I'm against a system that guarantees perfect success with no repercussions..

Modern day missiles are pretty damn reliable and VERY accurate to the point they can fly them in to a window of a target building. See those spook cruse missiles video were you see the missile fly in to a target. And sure things can fail but the fail rate is SUPER dupper low. Problem is they are very expansive if they could fire more missiles they would but they are pricey. *side note $1.5 million per cruse missile.It cost 60 million to fire missiles at Syria*

Edited by SirSmokes, 09 February 2021 - 08:07 AM.

[Wolfos31]

KW Driver, on 09 February 2021 - 07:17 AM, said:

And if every weapon I was exposed to when I was in the Army worked as well as it does on MWO, we'd never have a casualty. Nothing in the world EVER works as well as it's advertised, nothing... and to have everything always hit without any chance of failure is beyond unrealistic, even in a future alternate universe. I'm not a purist by any means, and I am not against players using LRMs, I'm against a system that guarantees perfect success with no repercussions..

But LRMs aren't a guaranteed hit as it is... IS LRMs which volley fire even on a target standing still will often have some of that volley hit the ground around the mech. You can test this in Testing Grounds. IS or Clan LRMs will hit the ground when fired on a moving target. Some missiles hit, but it's not 100% even excluding AMS.

Right now I actually think LRMs are pretty weak. I virtually never die to LRMs. I try playing LRMs occasionally (I think I have 3 mechs total out of my 90+ equipped with LRMs) and it's hard to put out decent damage. Lots of good counters to LRMs with ECM and AMS and cover on most maps. LRMs CAN be devastating with good teamwork like a narc Raven backed up by a few LRM mechs firing on the narc'd target.

But at that point you're dying to good teamwork, not LRMs specifically. If LRMs were more powerful I think I'd see them in matches much more often.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Wolfos31, on 09 February 2021 - 08:26 AM, said:

But LRMs aren't a guaranteed hit as it is... IS LRMs which volley fire even on a target standing still will often have some of that volley hit the ground around the mech. You can test this in Testing Grounds. IS or Clan LRMs will hit the ground when fired on a moving target. Some missiles hit, but it's not 100% even excluding AMS.

Right now I actually think LRMs are pretty weak. I virtually never die to LRMs. I try playing LRMs occasionally (I think I have 3 mechs total out of my 90+ equipped with LRMs) and it's hard to put out decent damage. Lots of good counters to LRMs with ECM and AMS and cover on most maps. LRMs CAN be devastating with good teamwork like a narc Raven backed up by a few LRM mechs firing on the narc'd target.

But at that point you're dying to good teamwork, not LRMs specifically. If LRMs were more powerful I think I'd see them in matches much more often.

I die to them very rarely if I get stupid and run out in the open when LRM boat around. Because I play them I know were to move to avoid them. I have no problem posting high numbers with my LRM mechs consistently on ANY map

Edited by SirSmokes, 09 February 2021 - 08:36 AM.

[Wolfos31]

SirSmokes, on 09 February 2021 - 08:31 AM, said:

I die to them very rarely if I get stupid and run out in the open when LRM boat around. Because I play them I know were to move to avoid them. I have no problem posting high numbers with my LRM mechs consistently on ANY map

That may be, but I find LRMs are very subject to the skill of the opponents. I'm not claiming I'm great at this game, but I think I'm decent and in Tier 2 games I struggle to put out 500+ damage with a LRM boat. Meanwhile in an MRM60 Quickdraw, 3 RAC2 Champion, 2 UAC20 Hunchback IIC, or 2 ERPPC Vapor Eagle I consistently put out 600+ and even up to 1000 damage on winning matches.

Basically I'm saying that LRMs become worse weapons as the skill level of the matches increase because better players will exploit the weaknesses of LRMs more. You said yourself that you know how to avoid them. When I see a LRM mech in matches now I'm usually thinking "lunch". Stick to cover, push them, underrun their missiles, then it's over. The exception being if the opponent team is massing LRMs with good spotting techniques. 200 LRMs will devastate any mech not in hard cover. But I rarely see a LRM group these days.

It's so rare now in matches that I don't even carry AMS on most of my mechs. I've had to break out a few old builds just to work on the AMS component of the current event.

Edited by Wolfos31, 09 February 2021 - 09:50 AM.

[Curccu]

SirSmokes, on 09 February 2021 - 02:51 AM, said:

Look I'm trying to placate a certain group of players talk to them. I hear nothing but cry's of lock weapons are low skill boohoo people. Or is it please don't break my meta? Can't tell anymore

It's "Weapon I can aim is my meta but lurms for laughs sometimes.."

[The pessimistic optimist]

Wolfos31, on 09 February 2021 - 09:49 AM, said:

That may be, but I find LRMs are very subject to the skill of the opponents. I'm not claiming I'm great at this game, but I think I'm decent and in Tier 2 games I struggle to put out 500+ damage with a LRM boat. Meanwhile in an MRM60 Quickdraw, 3 RAC2 Champion, 2 UAC20 Hunchback IIC, or 2 ERPPC Vapor Eagle I consistently put out 600+ and even up to 1000 damage on winning matches.

Basically I'm saying that LRMs become worse weapons as the skill level of the matches increase because better players will exploit the weaknesses of LRMs more. You said yourself that you know how to avoid them. When I see a LRM mech in matches now I'm usually thinking "lunch". Stick to cover, push them, underrun their missiles, then it's over. The exception being if the opponent team is massing LRMs with good spotting techniques. 200 LRMs will devastate any mech not in hard cover. But I rarely see a LRM group these days.

It's so rare now in matches that I don't even carry AMS on most of my mechs. I've had to break out a few old builds just to work on the AMS component of the current event.

That why I hang with those guys stay with direct fire guys and get close. I am always just behind my team pounding target getting indirect and direst fire in. Using line sight shots to get direct fire weapons in so I can work on a spot on there armor to punch a hole. Doing my best to make the enemy armor weak so team has easier time punching holes in mechs. I am tier 2 just so you know

Curccu, on 09 February 2021 - 09:58 AM, said:

It's "Weapon I can aim is my meta but lurms for laughs sometimes.."

Make it so yea have to aim them more like I already said. So is this about skill or something else?

Edited by SirSmokes, 09 February 2021 - 10:07 AM.

[Kroete]

SirSmokes, on 09 February 2021 - 06:39 AM, said:

I am still for making maintaining lock harder so if yea send someone to harass the lrm mechs they will lose that lock

Allready in the game:
Run to a lrm mech,
stand behind him and fire in his rear,
lrm mech will turn and lose lock or will not turn and die and lose lock.

Edited by Kroete, 09 February 2021 - 10:09 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Kroete, on 09 February 2021 - 10:09 AM, said:

Allready in the game:
Run to a lrm mech,
stand behind him and fire in his rear,
lrm mech will turn and lose lock or will not turn and die and lose lock.

Still too easy for some people I guess it's not me but I am OK if it will shut those guys up

Edited by SirSmokes, 09 February 2021 - 10:20 AM.

[General Solo]

SirSmokes, on 09 February 2021 - 03:09 AM, said:

Look just trying to find solutions that keep those guy from going ape **** over "low skill weapons"

Why appease a small group to stop them going ape
Is that the goal of the game
I thought it was to grow the playerbase population

Find solutions to that!
If people want to role play apes, its fine, as long as the playerbase grows
If the Apes get in the way of player base growth then
Put them in the zoo

[dario03]

General Solo, on 09 February 2021 - 11:06 AM, said:

Why appease a small group to stop them going ape
Is that the goal of the game
I thought it was to grow the playerbase population

Find solutions to that!
If people want to role play apes, its fine, as long as the playerbase grows
If the Apes get in the way of player base growth then
Put them in the zoo

Increasing the skill ceiling of lock-ons to make using and fighting them more interesting probably would help grow the playerbase.