211 replies to this topic

[D A T A]

the problem of the LRMs is that you can not be allowed to farm 2k damage by sitting on your *** and relying on an aimbot.

A weapon that does not require aim can not be that strong.

LRM velocity must go down and AMS power must go up

[The pessimistic optimist]

D A T A, on 10 February 2021 - 01:53 PM, said:

the problem of the LRMs is that you can not be allowed to farm 2k damage by sitting on your *** and relying on an aimbot.

A weapon that does not require aim can not be that strong.

LRM velocity must go down and AMS power must go up

But if you are using them right you don't? If playing them badly is the baseline? And they can be countered. Maybe the problem is you? AMS can smash missiles RIGHT NOW and yea know take cover. This has all bin done and non that hold up

Edited by SirSmokes, 10 February 2021 - 02:05 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

D A T A, on 10 February 2021 - 01:53 PM, said:

the problem of the LRMs is that you can not be allowed to farm 2k damage by sitting on your *** and relying on an aimbot.

A weapon that does not require aim can not be that strong.

If LRMs are so powerful why isn't everyone taking AMS?

There's no point nerfing LRMs unless the majority of the player base are dropping with AMS equipped. Electing not to counter a weapons system then complaining about it is backwards. If everyone was taking AMS and still complaining about LRM's there may be merit to this madness.

Just because one player drops with a 4xAMS Corsair does not excuse everyone else on the team from carrying.

[The pessimistic optimist]

VonBruinwald, on 10 February 2021 - 02:13 PM, said:

If LRMs are so powerful why isn't everyone taking AMS?

There's no point nerfing LRMs unless the majority of the player base are dropping with AMS equipped. Electing not to counter a weapons system then complaining about it is backwards. If everyone was taking AMS and still complaining about LRM's there may be merit to this madness.

Just because one player drops with a 4xAMS Corsair does not excuse everyone else on the team from carrying.

Like I said please don't break my meta

[The6thMessenger]

Doobix, on 10 February 2021 - 08:13 AM, said:

Idea for balance = delete lock on weapons from the game

Balance-Wise, the other direction can also be done.

We can make the rest of the weapons auto-aim with artificial spread mitigated by Targeting Computer, it'll be dumb but fair and balanced.

[FupDup]

SirSmokes, on 10 February 2021 - 02:32 PM, said:

Like I said please don't break my meta

People keep looking at this from only one perspective (nerfs).

The part that people keep missing is that an actual re-design of MWO's lock-on weapons would also make them better in some ways. A little harder to use, yes, but stronger because of having more control over where your shots land and probably toned down counters (the counters are so prevalent primarily because of how they're designed right now). Like, for example, if Streaks worked like MW4 streaks (they homed on the hitbox you aimed them at) then I'd actually use them (especially on Clan mechs who don't have Murms).

There's give and take, not just take. Maybe the feasts won't be as intense as they are now, but on the flipside the famines shouldn't be as intense either. The weapons should just work most of the time without being either dead weight or overwhelming.

Edited by FupDup, 10 February 2021 - 02:56 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

People keep looking at this from only one perspective (nerfs).

The part that people keep missing is that an actual re-design of MWO's lock-on weapons would also make them better in some ways. A little harder to use, yes, but stronger because of having more control over where your shots land and probably toned down counters (the counters are so prevalent primarily because of how they're designed right now). Like, for example, if Streaks worked like MW4 streaks (they homed on the hitbox you aimed them at) then I'd actually use them (especially on Clan mechs who don't have Murms).

There's give and take, not just take. Maybe the feasts won't be as intense as they are now, but on the flipside the famines shouldn't be as intense either. The weapons should just work most of the time without being either dead weight or overwhelming.

There are no famines if you use them right. I don't mind changing them but you really don't know how to use them. Unless they have counters that is are you talking about when they have enough AMS to stop you?

Edited by SirSmokes, 10 February 2021 - 03:16 PM.

[dario03]

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

People keep looking at this from only one perspective (nerfs).

The part that people keep missing is that an actual re-design of MWO's lock-on weapons would also make them better in some ways. A little harder to use, yes, but stronger because of having more control over where your shots land and probably toned down counters (the counters are so prevalent primarily because of how they're designed right now). Like, for example, if Streaks worked like MW4 streaks (they homed on the hitbox you aimed them at) then I'd actually use them.

There's give and take, not just take. Maybe the feasts won't be as intense as they are now, but on the flipside the famines shouldn't be as intense either. The weapons should just work most of the time without being either dead weight or overwhelming.

This is something people don't pay enough attention to. Changing a weapon to have a higher skill ceiling doesn't have to just mean nerf. You can nerf some parts, and buff other parts. If done right the weapon could be useful, more fun to use, and more fun to fight against.

[The pessimistic optimist]

dario03, on 10 February 2021 - 03:20 PM, said:

This is something people don't pay enough attention to. Changing a weapon to have a higher skill ceiling doesn't have to just mean nerf. You can nerf some parts, and buff other parts. If done right the weapon could be useful, more fun to use, and more fun to fight against.

Didn't I already say this before? I am sure I did make them harder to use to keep you happy. What I already said

Edited by SirSmokes, 10 February 2021 - 03:26 PM.

[East Indy]

After the second (2018?) balance pass, LRMs fell into a pretty decent place, I think. As I recall I was skeptical and turned out pleasantly surprised.

As always, it's concentrations of use — not the base weapon — that can be problematic. But the same principle applies to most other weapons, as well as 'Mech combinations and teamwork tactics. LRMs or ATMs aren't as much of a problem as group tonnage limits allowing three assaults to gamble on the other team not running a gimmick.

Likewise, indirect fire is what really frustrates players...but so do well-placed PPC or Gauss shots at range, and relentless bee-swarm machine gun fire when your 'Mech is open. That's why I tend to be the guy to rush the joker with a 90-tuber while most of the rest of the team just circles.

So, yeah. PGI misses a lot but got this one mostly right.

[The pessimistic optimist]

East Indy, on 10 February 2021 - 03:39 PM, said:

After the second (2018?) balance pass, LRMs fell into a pretty decent place, I think. As I recall I was skeptical and turned out pleasantly surprised.

As always, it's concentrations of use — not the base weapon — that can be problematic. But the same principle applies to most other weapons, as well as 'Mech combinations and teamwork tactics. LRMs or ATMs aren't as much of a problem as group tonnage limits allowing three assaults to gamble on the other team not running a gimmick.

Likewise, indirect fire is what really frustrates players...but so do well-placed PPC or Gauss shots at range, and relentless bee-swarm machine gun fire when your 'Mech is open. That's why I tend to be the guy to rush the joker with a 90-tuber while most of the rest of the team just circles.

So, yeah. PGI misses a lot but got this one mostly right.

How about a hard cap on number of tubes base on team composition. You can have X number launchers on one side and no more. So you can't have insane mass of them. IS would be lower because better launchers and clan can have more

Edited by SirSmokes, 10 February 2021 - 03:49 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

There's give and take, not just take. Maybe the feasts won't be as intense as they are now, but on the flipside the famines shouldn't be as intense either. The weapons should just work most of the time without being either dead weight or overwhelming.

So, rather than focusing on the feast aspect ("please nerf naow"), we should focus on the famine aspect first, buffing them.

Only when World Championship players start bringing them to World Championships should we switch to nerfing the "feast" aspect.


Let's be clear, World Championship players aren't known for bringing under performing weapons systems... If LRM's are so powerful I would expect to see them played in those tournaments.

[The pessimistic optimist]

VonBruinwald, on 10 February 2021 - 04:13 PM, said:

So, rather than focusing on the feast aspect ("please nerf naow"), we should focus on the famine aspect first, buffing them.

Only when World Championship players start bringing them to World Championships should we switch to nerfing the "feast" aspect.


Let's be clear, World Championship players aren't known for bringing under performing weapons systems... If LRM's are so powerful I would expect to see them played in those tournaments.

They have no clue how to use them but pretend they do sad I know everything dunning-kruger effect

Edited by SirSmokes, 10 February 2021 - 04:20 PM.

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 10 February 2021 - 04:13 PM, said:

So, rather than focusing on the feast aspect ("please nerf naow"), we should focus on the famine aspect first, buffing them.

I don't think we should do one first. It would be best to do both simultaneously because they're co-dependent and it could lead to another Lurmaggedon episode to do only the buff aspect first (and thus subsequent nerfs).

VonBruinwald, on 10 February 2021 - 04:13 PM, said:

Only when World Championship players start bringing them to World Championships should we switch to nerfing the "feast" aspect.

Let's be clear, World Championship players aren't known for bringing under performing weapons systems... If LRM's are so powerful I would expect to see them played in those tournaments.

Side note: I'm not just talking about Lurms. I'm grouping Streaks and ATMs in here. They share similar base mechanics and similar problems rooting from those mechanics.


Back on topic: A part of the puzzle is the fact that every mech in the game except for the CDA-X5 can equip AMS. I don't think I'd want to nerf AMS itself because then people would feel less incentive to give up heatsinks, engine, etc. to mount it.

This would probably piss off a ton of people, but I think that AMS should for the most part be treated like ECM, JJs, or MASC in that it should usually only be assigned to mechs that equip it in their stock form. I think to not be completely cruel we could make a few exceptions to this rule, perhaps for the variants that PGI has given dual AMS to or maybe allowing one variant per chassis to have AMS (unless multiple variants have it stock).

There's also the lock-on system itself here being dependent on red doritos. Either go the MW4 Streak path and just let the missiles effectively have instant-lock (thus just go wherever you were aiming, no need to wait for lock), or allow locks without the need to red dorito (maybe give the latter to ATMs/Lurms and let MWO Streaks be like MW4). You should still be able to lock on a target without needing the red dorito, but it would take longer than usual.

I just want my MW4 Streaks above all else so I can use Clan Streaks as Poor Man's MRMs (with tracking).

Edited by FupDup, 10 February 2021 - 04:38 PM.

[dario03]

SirSmokes, on 10 February 2021 - 03:24 PM, said:

Didn't I already say this before? I am sure I did make them harder to use to keep you happy. What I already said

You aren't the only person to talk about lrms though.

[The pessimistic optimist]

dario03, on 10 February 2021 - 05:03 PM, said:

You aren't the only person to talk about lrms though.

But you know everything

[Heavy Money]

D A T A, on 10 February 2021 - 01:53 PM, said:

the problem of the LRMs is that you can not be allowed to farm 2k damage by sitting on your *** and relying on an aimbot.

A weapon that does not require aim can not be that strong.

LRM velocity must go down and AMS power must go up

Gonna need some sources on people getting that kind of damage with LRMs at all, let alone regularly enough to matter, let alone while 'sitting on their ***'.


LRMs are not an issue except to a few hyperbolic posters who massively over exaggerate them. ERPPCs are way more relevant as a long range weapon. The only time you lose to LRMs are when there's a lot off concentrated effort going into providing a lock and keeping you targeted, and you don't take cover, and you don't have AMS. And guess what, if you stand in the open against ERPPCs, Gauss, or any other long range weapon with multiple people cooperating to take you down you are even more screwed.

You get people like "Omg 3 LRM boats + a spotter worked together and I couldn't do anything about it".
No ****. Tell me any other weapon combination you CAN do anything about if 4 people go after you. The only difference is you notice LRM teamwork but don't notice it with direct fire weapons.

Edited by Heavy Money, 10 February 2021 - 05:11 PM.

[dario03]

SirSmokes, on 10 February 2021 - 05:09 PM, said:

But you know everything

I know how to have a productive conversation. And that you are quickly moving away from one.

[The pessimistic optimist]

dario03, on 10 February 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

I know how to have a productive conversation. And that you are quickly moving away from one.

Some of you pretend like you can never learn anything for one some else. ALWAY assume someone know something you don't. That how you learn and improve

Edited by SirSmokes, 10 February 2021 - 05:17 PM.

[dario03]

SirSmokes, on 10 February 2021 - 05:15 PM, said:

Some of you pretend like you can never learn anything for one some else.

Self reflect so you can see that you are very guilty of this in lrm threads.

Quote

ALWAY assume someone know something you don't. That how you learn and improve

Follow your own advice.