105 replies to this topic

[Sean Lang]

[The pessimistic optimist]

Yes lets fix this thing!!This is also omi mech problem as well most of the strong Clan mechs are none omi. I don't disagree with this some mechs are too tank yes. As long as the none omi clan has good hard points changing engines is are more useful that changing the hard-points. You bring up the Black Knight that mech has a BIG problem its too big it about just as tall as an Annihilator

Edited by SirSmokes, 08 February 2021 - 09:29 AM.

[GuardDogg]

Yes!
When Battletech hit the shelves in the early 80s. Couldn't find one Madcat/Timberwolf miniature in the stores. They would be sold out like crazy. The blue Warhammer in action (book cover), with its spotlight on left shoulder, got me interested in Battletech. But the Madcat...wow!

Although, got myself a MadCat/TimberWolf action figure. Mine, still packaged :-)

http://www3.telus.ne.../MadCatColl.jpg

Edited by GuardDogg, 09 February 2021 - 08:42 AM.

[Wolfos31]

SirSmokes, on 08 February 2021 - 09:05 AM, said:

Yes lets fix this thing!!This is also omi mech problem as well most of the strong Clan mechs are none omi. I don't disagree with this some mechs are too tank yes. As long as the none omi clan has good hard points changing engines is are more useful that changing the hard-points. You bring up the Black Knight that mech has a BIG problem its too big it about just as tall as an Annihilator

I recently leveled my Black Knight to have all 91 skill points. It was a very unpleasant experience. The Black Knight just feels too big, too easy to isolate the CT, and way way too sluggish. I felt like I was piloting it through molasses most of the time! Not to mention it has low slung hardpoints. As soon as it was leveled I put it away and I doubt it will see much daylight.

My Timberwolf is a decent performer but it's not effortless. I run it with 2 ER Lrg & a Gauss. It's a good long range trader but is trickier to use up close. I definitely agree it could use a boost.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Wolfos31, on 08 February 2021 - 10:01 AM, said:

I recently leveled my Black Knight to have all 91 skill points. It was a very unpleasant experience. The Black Knight just feels too big, too easy to isolate the CT, and way way too sluggish. I felt like I was piloting it through molasses most of the time! Not to mention it has low slung hardpoints. As soon as it was leveled I put it away and I doubt it will see much daylight.

My Timberwolf is a decent performer but it's not effortless. I run it with 2 ER Lrg & a Gauss. It's a good long range trader but is trickier to use up close. I definitely agree it could use a boost.

It even more of walking barn door then the Awesome.

[Gas Guzzler]

I still think you should be able to fire 1 Gauss and 2 ER PPC at once, and put the line in the sand at 2 Gauss 1 ER PPC since folks are so offended by that, though honestly with the current state of the game even that wouldn't be breaking anything. The meta is all "press W and DPS" nowadays, in quickplay anyway.

To be honest though, most 75 tonners do need help. At least the Night Gyr can pack enough of a punch to justify it handling like a semi truck.

Frankly the Thanatos needs as much help as the Timber if not more. Except for maybe the missile boat variants.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 08 February 2021 - 10:45 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2021 - 10:38 AM, said:

I still think you should be able to fire 1 Gauss and 2 ER PPC at once, and put the line in the sand at 2 Gauss 1 ER PPC since folks are so offended by that, though honestly with the current state of the game even that wouldn't be breaking anything. The meta is all "press W and DPS" nowadays, in quickplay anyway.

Not so much offense it was just too good and left other weapon systems in the cold because they were not as effective. You can blast your high heat PPC and no heat Gauss get damage were you wanted it most of the time. If the PPCs heated you up too much you could still keep firing Gauss. Not sure if still hold true way more mechs and new weapon systems now. This was very early in the games life things are very different now

[Gas Guzzler]

SirSmokes, on 08 February 2021 - 10:47 AM, said:

Not so much offense it was just too good and left other weapon systems in the cold because they were not as effective. You can blast your high heat PPC and no heat Gauss get damage were you wanted it most of the time. If the PPCs heated you up too much you could still keep firing Gauss. Not sure if still hold true way more mechs and new weapon systems now. This was very early in the games life things are very different now

That's what I am saying. The game is much different now. Lack of agility and high DPS mean everybody runs around with DPS. Gauss/PPC wasn't a DPS type build, it was map control and trading, but this game has been dumbed down a bit. What you said also doesn't really apply to 2 ER PPC 1 Gauss builds, since the majority of your fire power comes from higher heat weapons.

[The pessimistic optimist]

I think they should run some tests on test server with PPC Gauss heat off see what happens. I think it would be good but not broken. Same holds true for 3x ERPCC if you get in there face there too hot to maintain fire and will get cut down by DPS builds. On top of Gauss are damn heavy there not light that a tonnage commitment and they blow up pretty easy

Edited by SirSmokes, 08 February 2021 - 11:18 AM.

[Bud Crue]

"generic master of none"

Yes, like more than half the mechs in this game which is why we need MORE quirks to give these less than idealized/generic mechs some unique niches. Yes, improved agility would be nice for a lot of mechs but quirks are what will make them unique i.e. not generic.

This isn't an IS v Clan issue, this is a blah mech vs those that are at the top issue. This is a low hard point/ low number of hard points/ mixed hard points issue. And also a weight issue.

I think a lot of the current lack lusterness (i.e. relative crappiness of most compared to their slighlty better brethren) of many mechs comes down to the poorly thought out goal of the post skil tree balance era. By making everything as blah as possible It placed an absolute premium on min/maxing and those mechs with higher, more numerous hard points (of the same type) became the most frequently played mechs to cost of all the rest.

Also the IV-4 is an absolute exception and should not be the base line of how to address the problem of quirks. Its survivability quirks are not the issue, its the fact it has a 20% missile cool down quirk coupled with two high, torso mounted missile hard points. Remember that post skill tree Chris's goal was to reduce reliance on quirks so that no mech would be a puzzle for players to solve by forcing them to play a single ideal build (or however he phrased it). As such, I supect Chris left it mostly alone (it actually lost 10% of its Ballistic cool down quirk...it was once 30%) so as to encourage players to try other things than missiles but no one seriously does because that hard point height trumps gorilla arms and ct energy mounts.

[Gas Guzzler]

SirSmokes, on 08 February 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

I think they should run some tests on test server with PPC Gauss heat off see what happens. I think it would be good but not broken. Same holds true for 3x ERPCC if you get in there face there too hot to maintain fire and will get cut down by DPS builds

3 cERPPCs would actually be more of a problem because you would have Clan mediums spamming trip PPC poptarts and Clan Assaults matching 3 cERPPCs with auto cannons for ridiculous burst DPS/alphas. 3 ER PPCs would all hit the same point too, gauss rifles have a different velocity so at least at a distance there is some separation.

Gauss and two PPCs requires more of a tonnage investment making you slower and they also explode if they are destroyed, plus the majority of your damage comes from 2 ER PPCs which can make you heat capped faster because you couldn't take as many heat sinks to fit your Gauss and ammo.

[Willard Phule]

I'm just waiting to see PGI implement at least one of these suggestions without having to actually code anything.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bud Crue, on 08 February 2021 - 11:16 AM, said:

Also the IV-4 is an absolute exception and should not be the base line of how to address the problem of quirks. Its survivability quirks are not the issue, its the fact it has a 20% missile cool down quirk coupled with two high, torso mounted missile hard points. Remember that post skill tree Chris's goal was to reduce reliance on quirks so that no mech would be a puzzle for players to solve by forcing them to play a single ideal build (or however he phrased it). As such, I supect Chris left it mostly alone (it actually lost 10% of its Ballistic cool down quirk...it was once 30%) so as to encourage players to try other things than missiles but no one seriously does because that hard point height trumps gorilla arms and ct energy mounts.

Yeah no kidding. If anything the Thanatos needs that level of missile quirks (defining feature was the RA MRM! Give the 4S some significant MRM quirks, its not like it can hold more than 50 tubes) since they are all in the low mounted arm. The IV4 would be a good MRM platform with its jump jets even if it just went down to 10% missile cooldown.

[Elizander]

"And all the Prime's set quirks and all the Agility Tree nodes couldn't bring the Timby to it's pre-desync greatness again~"

[PocketYoda]

What about all the other mechs that also need fixing, like the trebuchet, catafract and Nightstars etc... Timber wolf maybe poor but its still out performs hundreds of IS mechs..

Also that black lanner trash needs loving.

GuardDogg, on 08 February 2021 - 09:47 AM, said:

Yes!
When Battletech hit the shelves in the early 80s. Couldn't find one Madcat/Timberwolf miniature in the stores. They would be sold out like crazy. The blue Warhammer in action (book cover), with its spotlight on left shoulder, got me interested in Battletech. But the Madcat...wow!

.
http://www3.telus.ne.../MadCatColl.jpg

Funnily the Vulture from MW4 was the mech that did it for me.. Cresent Hawks Inception was my first dabble in Battletech though, but that Vulture (Mad Dog) just blew me away by its design.

Edited by Samial, 08 February 2021 - 06:01 PM.

[Flyby215]

Bud Crue, on 08 February 2021 - 11:16 AM, said:

"generic master of none"

Yes, like more than half the mechs in this game which is why we need MORE quirks to give these less than idealized/generic mechs some unique niches. Yes, improved agility would be nice for a lot of mechs but quirks are what will make them unique i.e. not generic.

This isn't an IS v Clan issue, this is a blah mech vs those that are at the top issue. This is a low hard point/ low number of hard points/ mixed hard points issue. And also a weight issue.

I think a lot of the current lack lusterness (i.e. relative crappiness of most compared to their slighlty better brethren) of many mechs comes down to the poorly thought out goal of the post skil tree balance era. By making everything as blah as possible It placed an absolute premium on min/maxing and those mechs with higher, more numerous hard points (of the same type) became the most frequently played mechs to cost of all the rest.

Also the IV-4 is an absolute exception and should not be the base line of how to address the problem of quirks. Its survivability quirks are not the issue, its the fact it has a 20% missile cool down quirk coupled with two high, torso mounted missile hard points. Remember that post skill tree Chris's goal was to reduce reliance on quirks so that no mech would be a puzzle for players to solve by forcing them to play a single ideal build (or however he phrased it). As such, I supect Chris left it mostly alone (it actually lost 10% of its Ballistic cool down quirk...it was once 30%) so as to encourage players to try other things than missiles but no one seriously does because that hard point height trumps gorilla arms and ct energy mounts.

You're right. I figure most players can accurately guess the loadout of their enemies' mechs at a glance: Vapour Eagle = ATMs or PPCs, Vulcan = MPLs, Supernova = LRMs or ATMs (except that one guy who keeps bringing quad PPCs), Assassin = SRMs, etc.. Generic quirks did very little to prevent mechs from being pigeon-holed into single builds.

Frankly, I would love to field my Timberwolf a lot more. I think it's a beautiful mech, though unfortunately those visually appealing shoulder-mounted missile racks that are awesome on the front of a novel or cd jewel case (anyone still have theirs for MW2?) makes for very easy pickings in a MWO match. I'm quite certain I could run my center torso at half-armour or less and still lose both side torsos first. Even without the missile racks, the Timber feels pretty lackluster for 75 tons.

As others have already pointed out, though, other mechs have similar problems.

Edit: Fixed typo.

Edited by Flyby215, 08 February 2021 - 06:32 PM.

[General Solo]

Timby has to pay for the crimes of the past
like all the guid mechs, Kodiak, Victor, Direwolf, Highlander, Firestarter, Artic, Cheetah, Blacknight etc
So big no

[MechWarrior5782621]

Timby's Mickey Mouse ears are way too big - but, I realize that it would take time & effort to resize it.

An easier fix would be to give it some side torso armor quirks, a mobility buff, and maybe a reduced heat generation quirk. It wouldn't be too hard to turn this thing into a reasonably competitive energy boat.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Fainting Goat, on 08 February 2021 - 09:12 PM, said:

Timby's Mickey Mouse ears are way too big - but, I realize that it would take time & effort to resize it.

An easier fix would be to give it some side torso armor quirks, a mobility buff, and maybe a reduced heat generation quirk. It wouldn't be too hard to turn this thing into a reasonably competitive energy boat.

what's the point of side armor quirks when you can hit the center from literally any point of view?

Actually, i think the timberwolf doesn't need any help at all. Sure it's not the get go meta mech but it does reasonable well. It's one of the few mechs in which you can do well if you actually do well.
You can carry with the mech, not get carried by the mech (looking at you MCII).

Edited by B L O O D W I T C H, 09 February 2021 - 01:57 AM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Sort the side torso heat spike "balance" that is crippling Clan and IS LFE mechs would go a reasonable way to making the Timber Wolf viable again.