105 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Heavy Money, on 11 February 2021 - 02:02 PM, said:

Let's not forget that a big part of why the Timber Wolf, and other omni-mechs with split hardpoints aren't better is simply that mixing weapon types isn't very good. If it was good to run, say, 1 big ballistic, a few medium lasers, and a couple LRM tubes, then the timberwolf would be ideal for it.

When we complain about omnimech power, we're not generally complaining about those that CAN boat a lot of the same weapon. The ebon jaguar and hellbringer with their high amounts of energy hardpoints are quite good, the Direwolf with its 8 ballistic, etc.

Its a fundamental problem of the game that generally its best to run all of the same or similar weapons. There are exceptions, but this is generally the case. If there was some way to incentivize people to run mixed weapon systems, then we'd see a lot more lore accurate loadouts, and we'd appreciate these flexible weapon hardpoints more. But for that to happen, we'd need to see something like an inverse ghost heat system. If you wanted people to run the above example of like an LB10x, 2xLRM15's and some medium lasers rather than all lasers or 2xlb10 and a couple lasers, you'd need to be giving some sort of buff to the LRMs that would decrease if you started boating them.

The TBR had boat loadouts that were meta for a while after its release. "Medley" builds being ineffective isn't what killed the TBR because that has been the case for the game's entire life span.

[Heavy Money]

FupDup, on 11 February 2021 - 02:07 PM, said:

The TBR had boat loadouts that were meta for a while after its release. "Medley" builds being ineffective isn't what killed the TBR because that has been the case for the game's entire life span.

I'm not saying that's what killed it, I'm saying its one of the reasons omni-mechs in general aren't more appreciated for their hardpoint flexibility.

Generally speaking, medley loadouts being stronger would be good for the game in a lot of ways. But I don't see any easy way to achieve that.

Edited by Heavy Money, 11 February 2021 - 02:10 PM.

[FupDup]

Heavy Money, on 11 February 2021 - 02:09 PM, said:

Generally speaking, medley loadouts being stronger would be good for the game in a lot of ways. But I don't see any easy way to achieve that.

I definitely don't support any kind of "reverse ghost heat" or whatever to that end, but I think something that could help (at least with Omnis) is shifting them towards more broad quirks. Like, for example, an Omni that currently has pulse laser duration might get that turned into all laser duration. Missile spread or LBX spread becomes spread (so it applies to LBX, missiles, MGs, any future weapons with spread). Etc.

I'd go the opposite direction with Battlemechs though, converting most of their weapon quirks into "family" quirks like turning generic energy range into pulse laser range or whatever (compensating by increasing the value so people don't feel entirely robbed).

This would help Omnis feel more versatile than Battlemechs and may also help make some pod setups easier to work with (I've been toying around in MechDB with set-of-8 builds and I often run into the issue of needing to use weapons that don't benefit from the quirks).

Besides the Omnis vs. Battlemechs thing, there are some "mixed" builds that work alright already although those are usually only two different weapon groups (like Lurms with backup lasers). Something I did on a Charger once was RACs + lasers + MRMs and it was pretty fine from a firepower perspective (hitboxes are another story...). Clan mechs probably have an edge when it comes to medley builds because their stuff is lighter in weight so it's easier to cram in multiple different weapons without making huge compromises.

[Heavy Money]

FupDup, on 11 February 2021 - 02:21 PM, said:

I definitely don't support any kind of "reverse ghost heat" or whatever to that end, but I think something that could help (at least with Omnis) is shifting them towards more broad quirks. Like, for example, an Omni that currently has pulse laser duration might get that turned into all laser duration. Missile spread or LBX spread becomes spread (so it applies to LBX, missiles, MGs, any future weapons with spread). Etc.

I'd go the opposite direction with Battlemechs though, converting most of their weapon quirks into "family" quirks like turning generic energy range into pulse laser range or whatever (compensating by increasing the value so people don't feel entirely robbed).

This would help Omnis feel more versatile than Battlemechs and may also help make some pod setups easier to work with (I've been toying around in MechDB with set-of-8 builds and I often run into the issue of needing to use weapons that don't benefit from the quirks).

Besides the Omnis vs. Battlemechs thing, there are some "mixed" builds that work alright already although those are usually only two different weapon groups (like Lurms with backup lasers). Something I did on a Charger once was RACs + lasers + MRMs and it was pretty fine from a firepower perspective (hitboxes are another story...). Clan mechs probably have an edge when it comes to medley builds because their stuff is lighter in weight so it's easier to cram in multiple different weapons without making huge compromises.

I agree that a reverse ghost heat system would be horrible. I mentioned it as an example of the sort of incentive, but also an example of why there isn't an easy solution to this issue.

We do see some mechs that encourage medley builds by having mixed hardpoints and then quirks for different weapons. For example, there's a lot of mechs out there where you can have stuff like a 1 ballistic weapon and 6 energy variant with 15% ballistic RoF, or a 2 ballistic 4 energy variant with no ballistic RoF. This sort of thing is a fine idea, but usually the quirks aren't enough to be worth it unless you were going to run only 1 ballistic anyway. It would be more interesting if you had a choice like "Do I run 2xLB10 and 4xMed lasers, or 1xLB10 and 6 med lasers with a perk bonus?" But the perks are too small to tip the scales.

We also see mechs that have 2/2/2 hardpoints and quirk bonuses to each. Again its a nice idea, but the quirks just aren't strong enough to be worthwhile, especially when it comes to missiles (and especially especially for IS LRMs as secondary weapons.)

But again we hit a paradox that its going to be better to min/max than mix. Let's take the following example. Consider an IS mech with 2/2/2 hardpoints, and that we put an equal tonnage of weapons into each type. Let's say our builds is going to be

2x AC2
2x ER Large Laser
2x LRM10

Each of these weights 5 tons each and they have similar enough range brackets. A medley loadout like this ought to be nice and well rounded. But we all know that nobody runs something like this. If there was another variant of the same mech that allowed 6xAC2 or 6xERLL or 6xLRM10, those would get chosen instead. The mixed loadout is harder to play due to different weapon tracking, tax of needing locks, and not having enough LRMs to punch through AMS. You'd think it would be more generalist and versatile or something in return for less efficiency in a niche, but actually its just clunky and weaker all around for no real benefit, except perhaps a bit of indirect fire potential, can't run out of ammo entirely like pure ballistic or missile, and less heat capped than pure energy. But none of those factors are enough to make it worthwhile, hence we don't see loadouts like this.

Now, what amount of quirks would be necessary to make this worth using over a pure specialized hardpoint variant? If we gave it 20% ballistic, energy, and missile RoF, then things would be getting interesting! But that's where the paradox comes in: If those quirks existed, this loadout still wouldn't be worth using because you'd be better off just running less but larger guns.

If you had 20% ballistic RoF, for the same weight as this loadout you could just run 2x Gauss Rifle. Or 2xUAC10 and 2xMedium Pulse Lasers. Or 2xMRM40, 2xMPL and some extra ammo or bigger engine. The closest you might get to a mixed loadout could be 2xLRM20 and 2xLL. Pretty much any of these is better than the original medley loadout.

So in the end, quirks can't really encourage medley loadouts properly unless they were something super specific and restricted, like only getting them if you fill all your slots or something. But that would also be really silly!

Edited by Heavy Money, 11 February 2021 - 02:44 PM.

[Mechteric]

Also give the Summoner some love

[FupDup]

CapperDeluxe, on 11 February 2021 - 05:32 PM, said:

Also give the Summoner some love

The Thor is pretty good with ERPPCs and SRMs right now...but some quirks to improve its ballistic/laser loadouts would be nice for variety.

[MechWarrior5782621]

w0qj, on 11 February 2021 - 01:42 PM, said:

With due respect, that is the very point of this discussion thread.
Timber Wolf is used rarely nowadays for good reasons:

Problem: Losing Set-of-8 quirks when swapping out one or more torso parts
Solution: Set-of-6 ?

Problem: Hardpoint constrained Timber Wolf (being one of the first Clan mechs introduced)
Solution: New variants (reinforcements+) with better/more hardpoints? New AMS in the head option?

That's not why it's a weak mech. It actually has great options for hardpoints.

One weakness is that the bunny ears stick up so high & they're so easy to target. Terrible mech geometry. That's why I recommended side torso armor quirks, because those ears stick up over hills & are easy to pick off.

The fixed XL375 engine is an incredibly inefficient use of tonnage. The Timby is the same speed as a hellbringer or ebon jag, and has roughly the same free tonnage for weapons. So it's very fast for a 75 tonner, but completely undergunned. Not because of hardpoints, but because of tonnage, and, to a lesser extent, slots.

Look at the TBR-S. If it were a battlemech instead of an omni, then you could switch to regular armor & downgrade the engine, and then u could build a ridiculous brawler with 2LB20's and 4xSRM6. But it's so constrained by tonnage & slots that all those hardpoints are useless.

The best Timby builds are probably laser vomit, but it's not even great at that.

[The6thMessenger]

Fainting Goat, on 11 February 2021 - 07:26 PM, said:

That's not why it's a weak mech. It actually has great options for hardpoints.

One weakness is that the bunny ears stick up so high & they're so easy to target. Terrible mech geometry. That's why I recommended side torso armor quirks, because those ears stick up over hills & are easy to pick off.

The SO8, for me, was actually a criticism of the Omnimech quirking as a whole.

Eh true. I would love to see Torso Armor-Quirks on the Timby, but the issue is that they can choose not to equip it and retain a smaller hitbox with the aforementioned bonus armor. TPGI should add conditional quirks first that will add possibly + 8 armor on small Missile-Ear, and +16 on large missile-ear.

As for the builds, yeah the large engine hampers the usability of Timby. It could work with good amount of energy or missiles because they are inherently light, but it's not a good ballistic weapons platform as in Dakka. Yeah you can 2x UAC10 + 3x ERML but that's basically a Hunchback IIC for 25 tons lighter, though less armor but better hitboxes.

The TBR-S can totally bring a brawl build, but yeah it's tonnage and size-constrained. I think it would benefit TBR as a whole if it comes with +50% ballistic ammo/ton quirk. It will help divert tonnage to something else, or to make something like this with more longevity.

Alternatively, I can see a bit more solution here if you can at least unlock the Engine-Heat-Sinks, that's +5 tons that you can put somewhere else.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 February 2021 - 09:09 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

The6thMessenger, on 11 February 2021 - 09:09 PM, said:

Eh true. I would love to see Torso Armor-Quirks on the Timby, but the issue is that they can choose not to equip it and retain a smaller hitbox with the aforementioned bonus armor. TPGI should add conditional quirks first that will add possibly + 8 armor on small Missile-Ear, and +16 on large missile-ear.

Me and Fup came to a similar conclusion:

Quote

VonBruinwald, on 30 January 2021 - 03:48 PM, said:

Well that's player choice, can't make everyone happy. Without structure/armour quirks, anybody who does use them basically has to live with ST bullet magnets. Which was one of gagis original complaints. If you're running laser vomit (meta) on a Timby there's far better mechs. So why not give a boon to the people who love the Timby for being what it is, an iconic mech with big ol' shoulder boxes included.

So the way I see it there's three avenues.

• Not have fixed boxes, no quirks (Current option)
  
• Have fixed SRM (smaller) hitboxes - add structure quirks
  
• Have fixed LRM (larger) hitboxes - add armour quirks

It might even be possible to tie the options to pods so the prime gets big boxes with armour by default, the D gets small boxes with structure, and the A gets no boxes and no quirks. Everyone's happy that way.

FupDup, on 30 January 2021 - 03:59 PM, said:

Fourth Option: Current dynamic boxes, and quirks. At the same time. Because even with direct-fire loadouts the mech is underperforming.

Also for your per-variant suggestion that I don't think that would even be doable because the box size is determined by the size of the weapon you put there. A TBR-Prime pod with an SRM6 mounted will use the small size and a TBR-D with LRM20s would use the big pods. It's not determined on a variant basis.

Some form of dynamic quirk seems to be the best option. I wouldn't take a straight buff off the table, but the issue is it turns to power creep.

[Natural Predator]

The timber wolfs glaring issue will always be its Center torso Hit box and its Box mounted shoulders. Its fundamentally designed badly. Those missile boxes should not cause the whole side of the mech to fall off when destroyed. But that's beyond the capabilities of PGI so pointless to talk about. I typically just use them as a meme mech laser vomit, ppc+Guass, or Srm Brawl. Because everything it can do can be done better by 65 or 55 ton clan mechs.

Edited by Trashtier, 12 February 2021 - 06:24 AM.

[Wildstreak]

w0qj, on 11 February 2021 - 01:42 PM, said:

Problem: Hardpoint constrained Timber Wolf (being one of the first Clan mechs introduced)

Solution: New variants (reinforcements+) with better/more hardpoints? New AMS in the head option?

Hell no, there are enough variants around for several Mechs including this one.

CapperDeluxe, on 11 February 2021 - 05:32 PM, said:

Also give the Summoner some love

No it is doing fine just almost no one using it now.

Fainting Goat, on 11 February 2021 - 07:26 PM, said:

One weakness is that the bunny ears stick up so high & they're so easy to target. Terrible mech geometry. That's why I recommended side torso armor quirks, because those ears stick up over hills & are easy to pick off.

Can't without losing the well-known look of those ears.
Maybe they can just change priority of where the first Missile weapon goes on the D and S, those are the only 2 variants with more than 1 Missile spot in side torsos. Look at stock D in store, the second Missile is not an ear but flush to the side.

I took out a stock pod D with custom build yesterday, was actually fun, still looking for what I want on a stock pod A though it can do the usual meta laser build since that involves the infamous A RT.

[Gas Guzzler]

Something that has worked okay for me is TBR-PRIME

Its a little low on ammo but seems to do well with the NASCAR/DPS quick play meta.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 11 February 2021 - 06:44 PM, said:

The Thor is pretty good with ERPPCs and SRMs right now...but some quirks to improve its ballistic/laser loadouts would be nice for variety.

Actually the dual UAC 10 build seems to do pretty well doesn't it?

[Wolfos31]

Heavy Money, on 11 February 2021 - 02:41 PM, said:

So in the end, quirks can't really encourage medley loadouts properly unless they were something super specific and restricted, like only getting them if you fill all your slots or something. But that would also be really silly!

Well said. I play TableTop as well. So I have a soft spot for the lore loadouts which generally tried to have a bit of everything so that a Mech could perform in any role, if only minorly. It made mechs interesting and jacks of all trades and fit in well with the lore setting of mechs being relatively rare and needing to be able to fill different roles with limited resources.

I think we also see this pattern play out (in lore/TT) with the introduction of the Clans. In the Clans mechs were more revered and used for largely ritual combat with agreed upon rules to determine outcomes/resources/whatever. Clan loadouts in the 3050 era are generally more specialized and focused on dealing massive damage in short bursts usually in a specific range bracket. Clan omnimechs allowed the Clans to specialize a variant for a specific role with the understanding that they could swap pods and transition to a different role if needed. There are less kitchen sink variants on the Clan side. Clan mechs also tend to forgo hand actuators (not universally) because the Clans don't raid in the same way the IS does, and they don't use melee in combat either!

The result on the table is similar to the results in MWO of generalist loadouts vs specialist loadouts. 8/10 times the Clans kick the IS *** just as specialist loadouts tend to outperform generalist loadouts.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 February 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

Actually the dual UAC 10 build seems to do pretty well doesn't it?

I haven't seen anyone use that on a Thor. My first impression theorycrafting it in MechDB is that it seems ammo-starved unless you strip a lot of armor (3 tons of ammo is really pushing it).

Dakka Thor

[Wolfos31]

FupDup, on 12 February 2021 - 01:19 PM, said:

I haven't seen anyone use that on a Thor. My first impression theorycrafting it in MechDB is that it seems ammo-starved unless you strip a lot of armor (3 tons of ammo is really pushing it).

Dakka Thor

I have a Summoner I run dual PPC on with some MGs to take advantage of the MG ROF quirk. But the problem is it is a heavier slower mech than my Vapor Eagle with the same build. I think the Summoner could really use some love. Fully armored it only has 20 tons for weapons which isn't a lot on a 70 ton chassis. The Hellbringer fully armored manages 25 tons and it's a 5 ton lighter mech!

[FupDup]

Wolfos31, on 12 February 2021 - 02:05 PM, said:

I have a Summoner I run dual PPC on with some MGs to take advantage of the MG ROF quirk. But the problem is it is a heavier slower mech than my Vapor Eagle with the same build. I think the Summoner could really use some love. Fully armored it only has 20 tons for weapons which isn't a lot on a 70 ton chassis. The Hellbringer fully armored manages 25 tons and it's a 5 ton lighter mech!

The Thor is better at SRMs and ERPPCs than the Loki.

The Veagle, on the other hand...yeah that thing tends to outclass nearly anything in the medium or heavy class.

[The6thMessenger]

They can also somewhat double-down on TBR being Swiss-Army-Mech. Why not add more variants for more builds?

The6thMessenger, on 13 February 2021 - 09:09 PM, said:

Spoiler

TBR-G Quirks:
- Torso Pitch Angle: +10 (RT)
- Torso Twist Speed: +10% (RT)
- Torso Pitch Angle: -5 (LT)
- Torso Twist Speed: -5% (LT)
- Missile Spread: -15% (RT)
- Ballistic Cooldown: -10%

TBR-G SO8
- Missile Range: +15%
- Energy Heat: -10

Used as Shock Troops around the time of the Fed-Com Civil-War, it is a modification of the Variant E known for it's blistering speed in the battlefield through the use of MASC. It's primary weapons include a pair of ATM6s with a ton of ammunition for each class, used with ER ammunition to chip armor as they closes in, the STD ammunition in tandem with a pair of Heavy Large Lasers, and finally the HE ammunition along with it's pair of Heavy Medium Lasers and Heavy Machine-Guns for close-range. The Light TAG is retained for Arrow-IV artillery support. It has a Laser AMS for missile defense, while individually could only defend from a few missiles, the TBR-G is genrally deployed in a full Star whose proximity allows multiple AMS to block entire volleys. This mech is cooled by a total of 17 DHS.

Spoiler

TBR-J Quirks:
- Torso Pitch Angle: -5 (LT)
- Torso Twist Speed: -10% (LT)

TBR-J SO8
- Missile Cooldown: -10%
- Energy Range: -15%

An attempt for long-range fire-support that forgoes the LRMs that are susceptible to ECM and AMS, the Variant J is an offshoot of the Variant A that uses a trio of Ultra AC/2s upon the left-torso high-mounts, two tons of ammunition keeps the trio of autocannons well-supplied. For short and mid-range support, it has an SSRM6 and SSRM4 with a ton of ammunition. And for mid-range and close-range point-defense, it has a pair of ER Medium Lasers and ER Small Lasers in each arm, downgrades of the basic Timber-Wolf arm Primary-Weapons. A single AMS allows an entire star to defend against long-range missiles. A total of 15 DHS keeps this mech cool.

The point of each variant is to add new Omnipods into the mix that allows more choices for the Timber Wolf.

The TBR-G Center-Torso is specifically given with AMS to provide more missile defense. Along with the TBR-J Right-Torso, and TBR-C Left-Torso, it can mount 3 AMS at the same time. An Iron-Dome for Clan Heavies.

The TBR-G Left Torso is specifically done to supplant the TBR-S Left-Torso for ballistic use, because it is exactly hampered with it's 2x JJ. This allows a more effective Mid-Ranged Dakka platform for the Timber-Wolf.

The TBR-G Right Torso is given with MASC to provide an option for higher mobility for the Timber-Wolf. It should be useful for brawling builds. MASC is already a risky addition to the mech, and so it comes with a bit of Quirks.

The TBR-J Center-Torso is given with 1 missile-hardpoint to make it different from the other Center-Torso and allows more missiles through the use of this. This is also meant to be used with TBR-G Right-Torso, but as an alternative of 6x SRM6A, it is instead usable with 4x SRM6 without Artemis.

The TBR-J Left Torso is specifically done to add a 3x Ballistic Highmount for the Timber-Wolf, a direct copy from the TBR-A but with ballistics.

The TBR-G SO8 allows something like a Gauss-Vomit or Gauss-PPC to be a bit more manageable.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 13 February 2021 - 10:48 PM.

[Wildstreak]

I do not believe Timber hitboxes are bad though the ears can be a problem if using large launchers.
It comes across to me and I use it similar to Stalkers and 50 ton Crabs.
- Low slung arms that are not really good for tanking when twisting, This does mean if I need to shave armor for tonnage, I can safely shave off arms.
- Side torsos can be used to tank through twisting thus helping for longer survival time.
I have used it similar to Crabs and Stalkers and lived for some time in matches this way.

Still liking the default D Pods with a few different weapons, had a 1000+ damage match, surprising and enjoyable.
Still not seeing any way to use default A Pods except by going Meta Laservomit. Would love to use the single Missile spot in the RT but being a single spot seems to be the problem unlike the D's total of 4 split between side torsos. I am not sure if that single Missile point could be quirked properly in any way to make it worth considering either default A Pods or mixed with others.

[Khobai]

Heavy Money, on 11 February 2021 - 02:02 PM, said:

You seem to be operating on the idea that OmniMechs have quirks that are, for no reason, locked behind the sets. This is not the case. The quirks are an incentive to use less optimal hardpoints. If set of 8's didn't exist, they just wouldn't have them, much like many clan battlemechs that have no quirks or negligible quirks. These limited quirks are by definition not holding anything back because they are a bonus for accepting a restriction.

that obviously doesnt work because even 8/8 timberwolves are bad.

flawed system is flawed.

the quirk system in this game has always been highly flawed. Because they tried to balance clan vs IS tech by using quirks instead of balancing the two tech bases at the fundamental level.

the only purpose of quirks shouldve been to help define roles for mechs and differentiate otherwise similar mechs. quirks should never have been used as means to try and balance clan tech. because all thats accomplished is created lopsidedness in mech balance especially for omnimechs.

Quote

I do not believe Timber hitboxes are bad though the ears can be a problem if using large launchers.
It comes across to me and I use it similar to Stalkers and 50 ton Crabs.

thats only part of it.

the timberwolf is supposed to be a heavy skirmisher. but it doesnt feel like a skirmisher at all. not anymore.

the game has always had poorly defined roles. it would be nice if the performance of mechs matched their intended roles.

every mech in the game should be assigned a preset role (classic battletech roles like skirmisher, striker, fire support, vanguard, brawler, harasser, etc...) and its performance profile and quirks should reflect that role. each role should have its own unique skill tree as well instead of every mech sharing the same boring generic skill tree that favors firepower and survivability over everything else.

for example a madcat would be a skirmisher while a night gyr would be fire support and an orion IIC would be a brawler. all three of those mechs should perform vastly different and have unique skill trees that reinforce their respective roles.

Edited by Khobai, 14 February 2021 - 09:48 PM.