105 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 February 2021 - 09:28 AM, said:

and no set 8 of is not good because it detracts from the primary strength of omnimechs which is being able to mix and match omnipods.

The point of set-of-8 is to make normally bad variants usable. Some pods are entirely fine when mixed with other variants, but complete garbage when used in their stock arrangement. Set quirks attempt to alleviate that. It can also be fun sometimes to try to work within the set limitation to produce a build that's viable while maximizing the set quirks.

It's not an all or nothing thing. We can, like, ya'know, combine pod-specific quirks with set-of-8. PGI mostly just went too far by nuking the majority of pod quirks, even on underpowered robots that needed them.

EDIT: I think another thing is that Omnimechs should generally get more broad/generic quirks compared to Battlemechs which should be more focused (i.e. Omnis might get energy heat, equivalent Battlemech should get pulse laser heat or STD laser heat or whatever). This should apply to both pod quirks and set quirks.

Khobai, on 10 February 2021 - 09:28 AM, said:

again the quirks should be tiered and increase gradually based on how many of the 8 parts you have. instead of being all or nothing.

Because the 4 ERML + 2 HLL Hellbringer definitely needs -7.5% energy heat.

Edited by FupDup, 10 February 2021 - 02:26 PM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 01:13 PM, said:

The point of set-of-8 is to make normally bad variants usable.

nope. there is no point to set of 8. because set of 8 defeats the point of omnimechs.

omnimechs' lack of advantages and lack of quirks in general is one of the main reasons mechs like the timberwolf have fallen so far behind.

the strict adherence to set of 8 to get quirks is a huge part of that. omnimechs would be way better off without the set of 8 nonsense. not only does it make more sense that omnimechs should have more flexible hardpoints than standard mechs but a lot of omnimechs could also just really use a buff.

so im gonna have to disagree with you. set of 8 is hampering omnimechs.

Edited by Khobai, 10 February 2021 - 08:15 PM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Forget about set of 8, you're wasting your time even thinking about it. Just play better mechs / loadouts.

[Heavy Money]

Khobai, on 10 February 2021 - 08:10 PM, said:

nope. there is no point to set of 8. because set of 8 defeats the point of omnimechs.

omnimechs' lack of advantages and lack of quirks in general is one of the main reasons mechs like the timberwolf have fallen so far behind.

the strict adherence to set of 8 to get quirks is a huge part of that. omnimechs would be way better off without the set of 8 nonsense. not only does it make more sense that omnimechs should have more flexible hardpoints than standard mechs but a lot of omnimechs could also just really use a buff.

so im gonna have to disagree with you. set of 8 is hampering omnimechs.

Set of 8 isn't hampering them. It hardly ever gets used. Nobody ever said "Okay, this builds is too strong" referring to a set of 8 build, and they haven't been held back from buffs in other areas due to set of 8 either.

The problem with omnimechs is that they are supposed to be flexible, but they actually are not. This is because min/maxing certain weapon hardpoints is basically always the best options, because boating weapons is basically always the best option. So even though they technically can run all sorts of weapon combinations, there's only 1 or 2 best combos per chassis if you want the best results. And the whole mech has been balanced around those combos. So any less optimal combo is inferior. For this to stop being the case, the balance of weapon types would have to change drastically in order to make it more desirable to mix weapon types. (And even then, there would probably be 1 most optimal build per chassis.)

Set of 8 is a quirk incentive to use a loadout other than whatever hardpoint combo is most optimal for that chassis. In an ideal world where set of 8 quirk's were strong enough, we'd see a given chassis having 1-2 loadouts per variant due to set of 8, and then 1-2 loadouts per chassis that didn't use quirks, but had more optimal hardpoints. Short of an entirely new weapon balance paradigm (which would be so difficult to achieve it wouldn't be worth trying), this is the best option for Omnimechs to loadout variety.

Does this match how it's supposed to be in the lore? Of course not. But its the best option of those that can be feasibly pursued.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 01:13 PM, said:

The point of set-of-8 is to make normally bad variants usable.

That defeats the point of Omnimechs, you reduce yourself to a mostly bad selection of hardpoints without the ability to finetune like a Battlemech.

Don't get me wrong, something like the Vanguard with it's good SO8 makes the mech amazing, but because of that, there's barely a point in changing and experimenting with the pods.

There's got to be a better way to implement SO8, i'd rather they just break the bonuses of the SO8 dispersed into the omnipods, that way you can mix-and-match the quirks of Omnis, and still have the bad-variants usable.

That SO8 of the Vanguard, the 10% Ballistic and 15% Energy, could instead be 1.25% Ballistic and 1.875% a piece.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 February 2021 - 08:43 PM.

[Heavy Money]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2021 - 08:42 PM, said:

That defeats the point of Omnimechs, you reduce yourself to a mostly bad selection of hardpoints without the ability to finetune like a Battlemech.

Don't get me wrong, something like the Vanguard with it's good SO8 makes the mech amazing, but because of that, there's barely a point in changing and experimenting with the pods.

There's got to be a better way to implement SO8, i'd rather they just break the bonuses of the SO8 baked into the omnipods, that way you can mix-and-match the quirks of Omnis, and still have the bad-variants usable.

I'd love this too, but man it'd be hard to balance or get right. We'd just end up with a couple meta pods and the rest being worthless, and we're right back where we started. Its a bridge too far.

[The6thMessenger]

Heavy Money, on 10 February 2021 - 08:43 PM, said:

I'd love this too, but man it'd be hard to balance or get right. We'd just end up with a couple meta pods and the rest being worthless, and we're right back where we started. Its a bridge too far.

Metapods, as in one pod that has all of the quirks? That's not what I have in mind.

As I edited before, something like the Vanguard, the 10% Ballistic and 15% Energy, could instead be 1.25% Ballistic and 1.875% a piece. That means you can incrementally add an amount of quirks by simply using a different amount of omnipods of a specific mech. It's like a small Skill-Tree on it's own.

[Heavy Money]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2021 - 08:47 PM, said:

Metapods, as in one pod that has all of the quirks? That's not what I have in mind.

As I edited before, something like the Vanguard, the 10% Ballistic and 15% Energy, could instead be 1.25% Ballistic and 1.875% a piece. That means you can incrementally add an amount of quirks by simply using a different amount of omnipods of a specific mech. It's like a small Skill-Tree on it's own.

That's what I thought you meant, yes. Its still going to boil down to a few pods having the best bonus or hardpoint:bonus ratio, and then only those will get used.

[The6thMessenger]

Heavy Money, on 10 February 2021 - 08:53 PM, said:

That's what I thought you meant, yes. Its still going to boil down to a few pods having the best bonus or hardpoint:bonus ratio, and then only those will get used.

Sure?

But I think it's an elegant solution to keep the bad-variants with quirks, without taking away the point of being an omnimech. It might also make Omnimechs a little bit better with select-a-quirk.

[LordNothing]

i want ballistic ears.

[PocketYoda]

Heavy Money, on 09 February 2021 - 10:06 PM, said:

PGI: "We're looking to buff old mechs because it will help improve the player base and revenue generation. Please forum, give us suggestions."

Forum: "Considering PGI's main perspective is monetization, giving a buff to an old mech doesnt help to improve the revenue generation much, not to mention PGI usually prefer to look at their own statistics rather than looking for suggestion in the forum which they hardly spend time reading..."

Thats right but there are hundreds of way worse mechs than the timber wolf.. just because its a clanner favorite doesn't mean it should get preference over far more needy mechs.

Edited by Samial, 10 February 2021 - 09:41 PM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

LordNothing, on 10 February 2021 - 09:20 PM, said:

i want ballistic ears.

we all do, but we can't have the forbidden fruit

[Heavy Money]

Samial, on 10 February 2021 - 09:41 PM, said:

Thats right but there are hundreds of way worse mechs than the timber wolf.. just because its a clanner favorite doesn't mean it should get preference over far more needy mechs.

Yes it does. Making sure that popular and well known mechs are not left behind is more important because more people are going to play them. It makes sense to target mechs that get used more if you have limited resources.

[Khobai]

Heavy Money, on 10 February 2021 - 08:35 PM, said:

Set of 8 isn't hampering them. It hardly ever gets used. Nobody ever said "Okay, this builds is too strong" referring to a set of 8 build, and they haven't been held back from buffs in other areas due to set of 8 either.

The problem with omnimechs is that they are supposed to be flexible, but they actually are not. This is because min/maxing certain weapon hardpoints is basically always the best options, because boating weapons is basically always the best option. So even though they technically can run all sorts of weapon combinations, there's only 1 or 2 best combos per chassis if you want the best results. And the whole mech has been balanced around those combos. So any less optimal combo is inferior. For this to stop being the case, the balance of weapon types would have to change drastically in order to make it more desirable to mix weapon types. (And even then, there would probably be 1 most optimal build per chassis.)

Set of 8 is a quirk incentive to use a loadout other than whatever hardpoint combo is most optimal for that chassis. In an ideal world where set of 8 quirk's were strong enough, we'd see a given chassis having 1-2 loadouts per variant due to set of 8, and then 1-2 loadouts per chassis that didn't use quirks, but had more optimal hardpoints. Short of an entirely new weapon balance paradigm (which would be so difficult to achieve it wouldn't be worth trying), this is the best option for Omnimechs to loadout variety.

Does this match how it's supposed to be in the lore? Of course not. But its the best option of those that can be feasibly pursued.

set of 8 absolutely does hamper them because it locks their quirks behind having to have 8 of the same omnimech pods. For example, you have to take missile pods on certain timberwolf variants in order to get the quirks. and if you unequip the awful missile pods you lose your quirks. thats crap. Thats why it should be 6/8 so timberwolves can elect not to take missile pods without losing their quirks.

omnimechs are already at a disadvantage to battlemechs in numerous ways. set of 8 isnt necessary.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2021 - 07:56 AM.

[Absaint]

I am one of the guys who tryes to qork withing set of 8´s to make viable builds.

yes they are not as good but its a fun challenge.

If most people dont use sets of 8 but they are fun for some others dont remove them, just let them be.

[Wildstreak]

Set of 8 is fine, just some could use changes and no, they do not defeat the point of mixing pods.

Example when looking to do something new on my Adder-B I noticed the LBX So8 quirks and they make a difference.
1 - I reverted to stock build
2 - Swapped the LBX-5 for LBX-2 plus 4 ERMLs
3 - Maxed armor all over except 10 in head
4 - added 5 DHS plus a LAP for the last half ton.

Love this little thing. Most matches I can get 400-600 damage, the LBX2 is rapid fire enough for minor DPS or I just Aplha and walk away. It can fight back against other Lights.

Does this make mixing Adder omnipods worthless? No, indeed I think it shows what So8 should be, useful while still allowing pod mixing for other benefits.

For comparison, I still do not get the So8 on the Huntsman-P for Streak SRM CD, sure the stock build had Streaks but only 2. Pod space is for up to 4 but above 3 gives GH so makes no sense.

Edited by Wildstreak, 11 February 2021 - 09:39 AM.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2021 - 08:42 PM, said:

That defeats the point of Omnimechs, you reduce yourself to a mostly bad selection of hardpoints without the ability to finetune like a Battlemech.

Don't get me wrong, something like the Vanguard with it's good SO8 makes the mech amazing, but because of that, there's barely a point in changing and experimenting with the pods.

There's got to be a better way to implement SO8, i'd rather they just break the bonuses of the SO8 dispersed into the omnipods, that way you can mix-and-match the quirks of Omnis, and still have the bad-variants usable.

That SO8 of the Vanguard, the 10% Ballistic and 15% Energy, could instead be 1.25% Ballistic and 1.875% a piece.

Having hardpoint flexibility is moot if one or two best combos rule them all anyways.

Also, as I said to Khobai, all it usually takes to turn a bad set into a good set is 1 or 2 pod swaps. Like the Hellbringer Prime only needing 2 swaps to reach maximum meta power. In such a case some existing set quirks would have to eliminated because there's no way that a Hellbringer with 4 ERML + 2 HLL deserves any level of energy heat reduction (in this case, the missile cooldown and MG RoF could stay because those are harmless on this chassis).

So we'd end up removing the heat reduction quirk from HBR-Prime, which would prevent the strongest build from being buffed but then we just made one possible combination (the stock set) weaker, which would in turn reduce variety and reduce the incentive to experiment around with different pod setups.

Side note, are we counting weaponless pods like heads and legs towards this? Because it would be weird for one leg to give you 1.5% ballistic cooldown, while a different leg gives 1% energy heat or whatever. There's gonna be clear winners found real quick with that setup (basically anything with energy heat reduction).

[w0qj]

With due respect, that is the very point of this discussion thread.
Timber Wolf is used rarely nowadays for good reasons:

Problem: Losing Set-of-8 quirks when swapping out one or more torso parts
Solution: Set-of-6 ?

Problem: Hardpoint constrained Timber Wolf (being one of the first Clan mechs introduced)
Solution: New variants (reinforcements+) with better/more hardpoints? New AMS in the head option?

Fainting Goat, on 10 February 2021 - 08:20 PM, said:

Forget about set of 8, you're wasting your time even thinking about it. Just play better mechs / loadouts.

Edited by w0qj, 11 February 2021 - 01:45 PM.

[FupDup]

w0qj, on 11 February 2021 - 01:42 PM, said:

With due respect, that is the very point of this discussion thread.
Timber Wolf is used rarely nowadays for good reasons:

Problem: Losing Set-of-8 quirks when swapping out one or more torso parts
Solution: Set-of-6 ?

Problem: Hardpoint constrained Timber Wolf (being one of the first Clan mechs introduced)
Solution: New variants (reinforcements+) with better/more hardpoints? New AMS in the head option?

The hardpoints on the TBR are alright. Not amazing, but alright. Bigger weaknesses are lack of agility and not so great hitboxes.

For more variants, you can't put AMS or anything else in the TBR's head because it has no open space. The CT however has a slot open so that is doable. As for specific variants, the Bounty Hunter variant would give the mech access to ECM in the right torso.

Edited by FupDup, 11 February 2021 - 02:01 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Let's not forget that a big part of why the Timber Wolf, and other omni-mechs with split hardpoints aren't better is simply that mixing weapon types isn't very good. If it was good to run, say, 1 big ballistic, a few medium lasers, and a couple LRM tubes, then the timberwolf would be ideal for it.

When we complain about omnimech power, we're not generally complaining about those that CAN boat a lot of the same weapon. The ebon jaguar and hellbringer with their high amounts of energy hardpoints are quite good, the Direwolf with its 8 ballistic, etc.

Its a fundamental problem of the game that generally its best to run all of the same or similar weapons. There are exceptions, but this is generally the case. If there was some way to incentivize people to run mixed weapon systems, then we'd see a lot more lore accurate loadouts, and we'd appreciate these flexible weapon hardpoints more. But for that to happen, we'd need to see something like an inverse ghost heat system. If you wanted people to run the above example of like an LB10x, 2xLRM15's and some medium lasers rather than all lasers or 2xlb10 and a couple lasers, you'd need to be giving some sort of buff to the LRMs that would decrease if you started boating them.

Khobai, on 11 February 2021 - 07:45 AM, said:

set of 8 absolutely does hamper them because it locks their quirks behind having to have 8 of the same omnimech pods. For example, you have to take missile pods on certain timberwolf variants in order to get the quirks. and if you unequip the awful missile pods you lose your quirks. thats crap. Thats why it should be 6/8 so timberwolves can elect not to take missile pods without losing their quirks.

omnimechs are already at a disadvantage to battlemechs in numerous ways. set of 8 isnt necessary.

You seem to be operating on the idea that OmniMechs have quirks that are, for no reason, locked behind the sets. This is not the case. The quirks are an incentive to use less optimal hardpoints. If set of 8's didn't exist, they just wouldn't have them, much like many clan battlemechs that have no quirks or negligible quirks. These limited quirks are by definition not holding anything back because they are a bonus for accepting a restriction.