615 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

SirSmokes, on 20 February 2021 - 08:15 AM, said:

Just no man

The only thing that needs fixing on clan weapons is health where they are the same slot size as the IS equivlent..

[Xaius]

For the most part I really like all of the community collaboration balance changes.
I do think it's important the balance changes don't hurt light mechs or innersphere.

My most desired change would be to weapon ghost heat, specifically raising the the limit on innersphere large lazers to 4 without incurring a heat bonus, and perhaps lowering some of the absurd heat scaling on some weapons,

I also think it is important to lower the heat on mrm10s, as it is way higher than other mrm launchers, making the weapon almost entirely unviable outside of ct mounting or mechs that don't need any heatsinks.

Also, PLEASE reduce the range on ams, there really isn't any counterplay for lrm players right now, the only viable option is to overwhelm ams with MORE missiles.
And while I'm on the topic of ams, please raise the health on non-lrm missiles, it's ridiculous to fire atm24 at 135m and do zero damage.

I also think lazers that weigh less than a ton could use some love aside from clan er smalls. And I would be happy to see more ammo per ton for machine guns, at least for innersphere. I think reducing the amount of ammo you need for machine guns would open up a lot of builds for innersphere lights.

Down the line I hope we'll see a rework of streak srms. Removing the unnatural heatspike from losing a side-torso would also be a big buff to energy mechs. Another important step for balancing would be to reduce the size of some less than viable mechs like the ice-ferret and jenner iic.

Edited by Xaius, 20 February 2021 - 09:31 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

MASC:

• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.5 (instead of x 2)

Definitely not in favor of this. The agility boost is a big part of what makes MASC so fun to use.

[Virtuebane]

BigBadVlad, on 19 February 2021 - 09:29 PM, said:

How about this for indirect fire lrms? Some missiles are flat out going to miss, unless target is narced or being constantly Tagged by a friendly who has to be standing still? Also if a narced target is being annihilated by LRMS or spotted anyway give half the damage and Match Score from the LRMs to the spotter/Narcer. A good Narcer/Spotter shows more skill than an indirect fire lrm player.

I agree... the lack of incentive for being the Narc spy or spotter is very disheartning.

[KursedVixen]

Xaius, on 20 February 2021 - 09:30 AM, said:

For the most part I really like all of the community collaboration balance changes.
I do think it's important the balance changes don't hurt light mechs or innersphere.

My most desired change would be to weapon ghost heat, specifically raising the the limit on innersphere large lazers to 4 without incurring a heat bonus, and perhaps lowering some of the absurd heat scaling on some weapons,

I also think it is important to lower the heat on mrm10s, as it is way higher than other mrm launchers, making the weapon almost entirely unviable outside of ct mounting or mechs that don't need any heatsinks.

Also, PLEASE reduce the range on ams, there really isn't any counterplay for lrm players right now, the only viable option is to overwhelm ams with MORE missiles.
And while I'm on the topic of ams, please raise the health on non-lrm missiles, it's ridiculous to fire atm24 at 135m and do zero damage.

I also think lazers that weigh less than a ton could use some love aside from clan er smalls. And I would be happy to see more ammo per ton for machine guns, at least for innersphere. I think reducing the amount of ammo you need for machine guns would open up a lot of builds for innersphere lights.

Down the line I hope we'll see a rework of streak srms. Removing the unnatural heatspike from losing a side-torso would also be a big buff to energy mechs. Another important step for balancing would be to reduce the size of some less than viable mechs like the ice-ferret and jenner iic.

i fully dissagree clan er smalls could use the same health points as IS er smalls.

[Caboose30]

Ditch ghost heat, remove the heat spike for torso destruction, and make double heat sinks dissipate something actually approaching twice what single heat sinks do. I mean, at least give them 1.6x instead of a measly 1.4x.

[Lionheart2012]

• For God's sake, don't reduce the criticals on the IS HGauss or the IS LB-20X. It is an essential trade off between weight and firepower, thus, limiting these weapons to the heavier 'Mechs. Imagine a Cicada with one of these weapons. That it can already mount a UAC20 is ludicrous on its own.
  
• If folks really want a mechanic to limit the placement of weapons, let's introduce the Mech5 mechanic of S/M/L weapon slots or the BT mechanic of small lasers and machine guns as point defense weapons.
  
• IS weapons are heavier and bulkier, in general. The trade off here, in addition to generating less heat, is that they should be more durable. The current balance seems workable, so please don't change it. This fits with the varying design philosophies, as found in lore: whereas the Clans emphasize brief, intense, and decisive clashes, the inner sphere is characterized by long, simmering conflicts, requiring durability.
  
• IS LGauss - Increase optimal range to 900m and damage to 10. Currently, the weapon hasn't found a niche. This would establish it as a sniper weapon.
  
• IS Gauss/HGauss/CGauss health to 12.5/17.5/7.5, respectively.
  
• Lower IS LB-20X projectile speed to 750m/s. It should be more in line with the other 20-bore weapons in the game.
  
• IS LPL to 11 damage. It needs greater damage to offset its greater weight.
  
• Light PPC optimal range to 660m. Give it a niche in range between a PPC and an ER PPC.
  
• SNPPC - Increase optimal range to 315m and reduce heat to 8.5. The Snub Nose PPC is supposed to be an improvement on the standard PPC, so there should be a reason to use it. What it lacks in range, it should make up for on some other metric, heat for example.
  
• Clan AC5/10/20 to 1/2/3 slugs per volley, respectively

Edited by Lionheart2012, 21 February 2021 - 04:15 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

My opinions are more or less in-line with the Balance Gulag, but I have some areas where I differ. My full set of recommended changes are available in the sheets below, but the deltas between me and the Gulag are concentrated in the following areas:

Spoiler

ER Small Laser
Damage = 3.75
Heat = 2
Cooldown = 2.75 Seconds
Range = 210/420 meters
Rationale = Damage on all IS small lasers is weak, and Gulag consensus was to increase from 3.25 to 3.75. I agree with this. For the ER small laser, however, Gulag increased the cool-down to 3 seconds and left the heat as-is. This is where I disagree. The gun currently runs far too hot and fires too slow for how little it gives in return over the standard small laser; it runs 100% hotter and fires 20% slower than the in-game Small Laser for a mere 33% extra range. I think leaving the cooldown as-is relative to current in-game value and decreasing the heat by 10% is warranted. I also gave it another 10/20 meters range.

Clan ER Small Laser
Range = 210/420 meters
Rationale = Increased the range because, after my changes to the IS ER Small, it is thematically inappropriate for the Clan one to have less range.

Clan ER Medium Laser
Damage = 6.5
Heat = 5.75
Duration = 1.15 seconds
Cooldown = 4.25 seconds
Rationale = Gulag reduced its burn duration slightly to improve its ability to trade against IS, and I agree. I believe Gulag was too generous with the improvements to cool-down and heat given how many heatsinks Clan 'Mechs bring, however, and so I am less generous.

ER Large Laser
Damage = 9
Heat = 8
Duration = 1.1 seconds
Cooldown = 4 seconds
Range = 720/1440 meters
Rationale = Gulag increased the range of the IS ERLL, I agree, but I have a preference for increments of 30 for IS weapons and I think they did not increase it enough relative to cERLL.

Clan ER Large Laser
Damage = 11
Heat = 10
Duration = 1.25 seconds
Cooldown = 4.5 seconds
Range = 750/1500 meters
REDUCED GHOST HEAT PENALTY
Rationale = Gulag restored its damage and heat, which I agree with. They also made it less painful to fire 3 at a time, which I also agree with given the generally worse mounts on Clan 'Mechs. I do not agree with the Gulag on increasing the range gap gap with the IS ERLL even more than it is in-game, so I reduced it. I did, however, reduce the duration to better improve its ability to trade against the IS version, which is the real reason Gulag increased the range (I don't think creating absolute range advantages in general is healthy for the game).

Heavy Small Laser
Damage = 6.5
Heat = 3.75
Duration = 1 seconds
Cooldown = 3.5 seconds
Range = 120/240 meters
Rationale = Gulag hardly touched this weapon, merely reducing duration and only a token amount. For the range bracket it sits in, it gets straight-outclassed by the Clan Small Pulse and ER Micro, and needs considerable improvements. I increased its DPS and poke-ability by reducing duration and cool-down. I also gave it a small improvement to range.

Heavy Medium Laser
Damage = 10
Heat = 8
Duration = 1.3 seconds
Cooldown = 5.25 seconds
Rationale = Gulag hardly touched this weapon, merely reducing duration and only a token amount. It needs a larger reduction to be more usable in a poke and it needs to cycle slightly faster for its range bracket. I made changes accordingly.

Heavy Large Laser
Damage = 18
Heat = 16
Duration = 1.45 seconds
Rationale = Gulag buffed the damage on this weapon to feel worth its heat, but they buffed it past what it launched with and I think that's too far. Instead, I chose to bring the damage back down to its launch amount and reduce the duration to improve its utility in a trade.

Heavy PPC
Damage = 15+3 splash
Heat = 14
Cooldown = 5 seconds
Velocity = 1400 m/s
Rationale = Where gulag seeks to make it run cooler, I prefer to beef up its effects on target to make it feel like it's more worth the heat it generates. Because the Gulag consensus also agreed that 3x standard PPC should be allowed without Ghost Heat, the HPPC also does not feel sufficiently differentiated. With this change, 2x HPPC would grant the user 30+6 damage every 5 seconds in exchange for 20 tons, 8 slots, and 28 heat where 3x PPC would provide 30 every 4 seconds damage in exchange for 21 tons, 9 slots, and 27 heat.

Light Gauss Rifle
Damage = 10
Charge = 0.5 seconds
Cooldown = 3 seconds
Range = 810/2430 meters
Velocity = 2250 m/s
UN-LINKED GHOST HEAT WITH PPC FAMILY
Rationale = Gulag increased the damage and reduced the ammo to 20/ton, which I agree with. However, Gulag also has this weapon firing no faster than an ERPPC, rendering it largely redundant with the more tonnage efficient ERPPC. I believe it needs to fire slightly faster to be worth taking over standard Gauss or ERPPC. I also believe Gauss in general should receive their 3x max range boost back, and I have increased it thusly.

Gauss Rifle
Damage = 15
Charge = 0.5 seconds
Cooldown = 4.75 seconds
Range = 720/2160 meters
Velocity = 2000 m/s
HP = 15
Explosion Crit Chance = 65%
Rationale = Gulag increased the range on the Gauss to be almost equal to the Light Gauss, which I strongly disagree with because it means the Light Gauss is not worth taking of a sniping role with its lower damage-per-poke. I have reduced the range on the gun by another 90 meters optimum, but I did give it 3x max in keeping with my philosophy of Gauss-as-sniper. For the IS Gauss in particular, I believe a slightly shorter cooldown and a dramatically reduced chance of explosion on crit are deserved owing to its heftier resource requirements.

Clan Gauss Rifle
Damage = 15
Charge = 0.5 seconds
Cooldown = 5 seconds
Range = 720/2160 meters
Velocity = 2000 m/s
HP = 10
Explosion Crit Chance = 80%
Rationale = Similar rationale as IS Gauss, but I also believe the gun is currently too fragile in-game and needs some improved durability and no longer needs to explode every time it gets crit.

Light Machine Gun
RoF = 12
Ammo = 2800/ton
Rationale = IS LMGs weight twice as much as their Clan counterparts but currently get very little in return for that investment. IS also don't have 'Mechs with similar counts as Clan 'Mechs save one (FLE-19), which does not have the same kind of supplemental energy firepower to go with them. Ergo, damage is increased via rate of fire slightly buffed. It's a softer buff than simply increasing the damage since the in-game trade-off is that ammo will be consumed faster. Ammo increased per Gulag.

Clan Light Machine Gun
Spread = 0.55
Ammo = 2800/ton
Rationale = The combination of lower damage than standard C-MG and higher spread than IS LMG makes these weapons completely useuless at their rated range. Reduced spread to compensate. Ammo increased per Gulag.

Machine Gun
Damage = 0.1
RoF = 12
Range = 150/300 meters
Rationale = IS MGs all weight twice as much as their Clan counterparts but currently get very little in return for that investment. IS also don't have 'Mechs with similar counts as Clan 'Mechs that can get into range so easily save one (FLE-19), which does not have the same kind of supplemental energy firepower to go with them. Ergo, damage is increased via rate of fire and range is slightly buffed. It's a softer buff than simply increasing the damage since the in-game trade-off is that ammo will be consumed faster.

Heavy Machine Gun
RoF = 12
Range = 120/240 meters
Ammo = 1400/ton
Rationale = IS HMGs weight twice as much as their Clan counterparts but currently get very little in return for that investment. IS also don't have 'Mechs with similar counts as Clan 'Mechs save one (FLE-19), which does not have the same kind of supplemental energy firepower to go with them and cannot even moung 8x HMG at 1 ton each. Ergo, damage is increased via rate of fire. It's a softer buff than simply increasing the damage since the in-game trade-off is that ammo will be consumed faster. Ammo increased per Gulag.

AC/2
Cooldown = 0.68
Range = 750/1500 meters
Velocity = 1800 m/s
Rationale = Gulag increased the velocity on this gun, which I disagree with. I do think that there is a range and DPS deficit that can be made up against the Clan version, so I changed those and returned the velocity to its in-game values.

Clan AC/2
Heat = 0.6
Range = 810/1620 meters
Velocity = 1800 m/s
Rationale = Gulag increased the velocity on this gun, which I disagree with. I do think that there is a range deficit that can be made up against the Clan version, so I reduced it. I also increased the heat slightly as payment for its improved range.

AC/5
Heat = 1.2
Cooldown = 1.5
Velocity = 1500 m/s
Rationale = Gulag improved heat and velocity over in-game, which I agree with, but I don't think those will do much to improve its value; the amount of tonnage the weapon soaks means it must be the primary batter and, as such, it needs more DPS to be worth taking over the improved Gulag-improved UAC/5. Ergo, I reduced its cool-down.

Clan AC/5
Volley Size = 1
Heat = 1.4
Cooldown = 1.75
Range = 630/1260 meters
Velocity = 1500 m/s
Rationale = Gulag merely increased velocity on this weapon, which is not enough to render it useful in any capacity. To make it useful, I changed its volley size from 2 to 1, but as payment for this dramatic shift in damage loading I returned its heat to the stock in-game value, reduced the range to match the IS version of the gun, and increased its cool-down so it doesn't out-class the IS version in DPS. Clans needed something to make PPFLD builds more fun, this is it.

AC/10
Heat = 2.25
Range = 510/1020 meters
Velocity = 1300 m/s
Rationale = This gun's entire niche is delivering front-loaded damage; Gulag buffed its velocity to help, but I think it also needs a slight increase to range to give it better sync with PPCs and fill this niche. It would also help it fill this niche at mid-range better than the improved Light Gauss.

Clan AC/10
Volley Size = 2
Velocity = 1300 m/s
Rationale = Similar rationale as my changes to the Clan AC/5, except this gun does not need a as many changes to become useful over the Gulag-changed C-UAC/10.

Ultra AC/10
Volley Size = 1
Heat = 3.25
Cooldown = 1.7
Rationale = Gulag thinks this weapon is mostly fine where it is and only reduced its base (non-double-tap) DPS, and I tend to agree with this change. I do, however, find that IS UAC builds run slightly too hot, and so I reduced its heat.

Ultra AC/20
Heat = 6
Cooldown = 5
Range = 300/600 meters
Velocity = 900 m/s
Rationale = Gulag improved velocity and reduced heat, which I agree with. I, however, feel that this weapon needs slightly more range than it is equipped with in-game; I do not foresee it being better than an AC/20 because the two weapons are so different; the AC/20 is a front-loaded gun that does all damage to one place and the UAC/20 fires a volley that will spread. For the same reason, I did not see the need for the UAC/20 to have a lower velocity than the AC/20.

There are other, less significant differences between me and the Gulag, but the spoiler contains the largest ones. Keep in mind, all values are chosen with a "blank slate" in mind for quirks.

Edited by Miss Greene, 20 February 2021 - 08:13 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Miss Greene, on 20 February 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

My opinions are more or less in-line with the Balance Gulag, but I have some areas where I differ. My full set of recommended changes are available in the sheets below, but the deltas between me and the Gulag are concentrated in the following areas:

Spoiler

ER Small Laser
Damage = 3.75
Heat = 2
Cooldown = 2.75 Seconds
Range = 210/240 meters
Rationale = Damage on all IS small lasers is weak, and Gulag consensus was to increase from 3.25 to 3.75. I agree with this. For the ER small laser, however, Gulag increased the cool-down to 3 seconds and left the heat as-is. This is where I disagree. The gun currently runs far too hot and fires too slow for how little it gives in return over the standard small laser; it runs 100% hotter and fires 20% slower than the in-game Small Laser for a mere 33% extra range. I think leaving the cooldown as-is relative to current in-game value and decreasing the heat by 10% is warranted. I also gave it another 10/20 meters range.

Clan ER Small Laser
Range = 210/240 meters
Rationale = Increased the range because, after my changes to the IS ER Small, it is thematically inappropriate for the Clan one to have less range.

Clan ER Medium Laser
Damage = 6.5
Heat = 5.75
Duration = 1.15 seconds
Cooldown = 4.25 seconds
Rationale = Gulag reduced its burn duration slightly to improve its ability to trade against IS, and I agree. I believe Gulag was too generous with the improvements to cool-down and heat given how many heatsinks Clan 'Mechs bring, however, and so I am less generous.

ER Large Laser
Damage = 9
Heat = 8
Duration = 1.1 seconds
Cooldown = 4 seconds
Range = 720/1440 meters
Rationale = Gulag increased the range of the IS ERLL, I agree, but I have a preference for increments of 30 for IS weapons and I think they did not increase it enough relative to cERLL.

Clan ER Large Laser
Damage = 11
Heat = 10
Duration = 1.25 seconds
Cooldown = 4.5 seconds
Range = 750/1500 meters
REDUCED GHOST HEAT PENALTY
Rationale = Gulag restored its damage and heat, which I agree with. They also made it less painful to fire 3 at a time, which I also agree with given the generally worse mounts on Clan 'Mechs. I do not agree with the Gulag on increasing the range gap gap with the IS ERLL even more than it is in-game, so I reduced it. I did, however, reduce the duration to better improve its ability to trade against the IS version, which is the real reason Gulag increased the range (I don't think creating absolute range advantages in general is healthy for the game).

Heavy Small Laser
Damage = 6.5
Heat = 3.75
Duration = 1 seconds
Cooldown = 3.5 seconds
Range = 120/240 meters
Rationale = Gulag hardly touched this weapon, merely reducing duration and only a token amount. For the range bracket it sits in, it gets straight-outclassed by the Clan Small Pulse and ER Micro, and needs considerable improvements. I increased its DPS and poke-ability by reducing duration and cool-down. I also gave it a small improvement to range.

Heavy Medium Laser
Damage = 10
Heat = 8
Duration = 1.3 seconds
Cooldown = 5.25 seconds
Rationale = Gulag hardly touched this weapon, merely reducing duration and only a token amount. It needs a larger reduction to be more usable in a poke and it needs to cycle slightly faster for its range bracket. I made changes accordingly.

Heavy Large Laser
Damage = 18
Heat = 16
Duration = 1.45 seconds
Rationale = Gulag buffed the damage on this weapon to feel worth its heat, but they buffed it past what it launched with and I think that's too far. Instead, I chose to bring the damage back down to its launch amount and reduce the duration to improve its utility in a trade.

Heavy PPC
Damage = 15+3 splash
Heat = 14
Cooldown = 5 seconds
Velocity = 1400 m/s
Rationale = Where gulag seeks to make it run cooler, I prefer to beef up its effects on target to make it feel like it's more worth the heat it generates. Because the Gulag consensus also agreed that 3x standard PPC should be allowed without Ghost Heat, the HPPC also does not feel sufficiently differentiated. With this change, 2x HPPC would grant the user 30+6 damage every 5 seconds in exchange for 20 tons, 8 slots, and 28 heat where 3x PPC would provide 30 every 4 seconds damage in exchange for 21 tons, 9 slots, and 27 heat.

Light Gauss Rifle
Damage = 10
Charge = 0.5 seconds
Cooldown = 3 seconds
Range = 810/2430 meters
Velocity = 2250 m/s
UN-LINKED GHOST HEAT WITH PPC FAMILY
Rationale = Gulag increased the damage and reduced the ammo to 20/ton, which I agree with. However, Gulag also has this weapon firing no faster than an ERPPC, rendering it largely redundant with the more tonnage efficient ERPPC. I believe it needs to fire slightly faster to be worth taking over standard Gauss or ERPPC. I also believe Gauss in general should receive their 3x max range boost back, and I have increased it thusly.

Gauss Rifle
Damage = 15
Charge = 0.5 seconds
Cooldown = 4.75 seconds
Range = 720/2160 meters
Velocity = 2000 m/s
HP = 15
Explosion Crit Chance = 65%
Rationale = Gulag increased the range on the Gauss to be almost equal to the Light Gauss, which I strongly disagree with because it means the Light Gauss is not worth taking of a sniping role with its lower damage-per-poke. I have reduced the range on the gun by another 90 meters optimum, but I did give it 3x max in keeping with my philosophy of Gauss-as-sniper. For the IS Gauss in particular, I believe a slightly shorter cooldown and a dramatically reduced chance of explosion on crit are deserved owing to its heftier resource requirements.

Clan Gauss Rifle
Damage = 15
Charge = 0.5 seconds
Cooldown = 5 seconds
Range = 720/2160 meters
Velocity = 2000 m/s
HP = 10
Explosion Crit Chance = 80%
Rationale = Similar rationale as IS Gauss, but I also believe the gun is currently too fragile in-game and needs some improved durability and no longer needs to explode every time it gets crit.

Light Machine Gun
RoF = 12
Ammo = 2800/ton
Rationale = IS LMGs weight twice as much as their Clan counterparts but currently get very little in return for that investment. IS also don't have 'Mechs with similar counts as Clan 'Mechs save one (FLE-19), which does not have the same kind of supplemental energy firepower to go with them. Ergo, damage is increased via rate of fire slightly buffed. It's a softer buff than simply increasing the damage since the in-game trade-off is that ammo will be consumed faster. Ammo increased per Gulag.

Clan Light Machine Gun
Spread = 0.55
Ammo = 2800/ton
Rationale = The combination of lower damage than standard C-MG and higher spread than IS LMG makes these weapons completely useuless at their rated range. Reduced spread to compensate. Ammo increased per Gulag.

Machine Gun
Damage = 0.1
RoF = 12
Range = 150/300 meters
Rationale = IS MGs all weight twice as much as their Clan counterparts but currently get very little in return for that investment. IS also don't have 'Mechs with similar counts as Clan 'Mechs that can get into range so easily save one (FLE-19), which does not have the same kind of supplemental energy firepower to go with them. Ergo, damage is increased via rate of fire and range is slightly buffed. It's a softer buff than simply increasing the damage since the in-game trade-off is that ammo will be consumed faster.

Heavy Machine Gun
RoF = 12
Range = 120/240 meters
Ammo = 1400/ton
Rationale = IS HMGs weight twice as much as their Clan counterparts but currently get very little in return for that investment. IS also don't have 'Mechs with similar counts as Clan 'Mechs save one (FLE-19), which does not have the same kind of supplemental energy firepower to go with them and cannot even moung 8x HMG at 1 ton each. Ergo, damage is increased via rate of fire slightly buffed. It's a softer buff than simply increasing the damage since the in-game trade-off is that ammo will be consumed faster. Ammo increased per Gulag.

ER Large Laser
Damage = 9
Heat = 8
Duration = 1.1 seconds
Cooldown = 4 seconds
Range = 720/1440 meters
Rationale = Gulag increased the range of the IS ERLL, I agree, but I have a preference for increments of 30 for IS weapons and I think they did not increase it enough relative to cERLL.

AC/2
Cooldown = 0.68
Range = 750/1500 meters
Velocity = 1800 m/s
Rationale = Gulag increased the velocity on this gun, which I disagree with. I do think that there is a range and DPS deficit that can be made up against the Clan version, so I changed those and returned the velocity to its in-game values.

Clan AC/2
Heat = 0.6
Range = 810/1620 meters
Velocity = 1800 m/s
Rationale = Gulag increased the velocity on this gun, which I disagree with. I do think that there is a range deficit that can be made up against the Clan version, so I reduced it. I also increased the heat slightly as payment for its improved range.

AC/5
Heat = 1.2
Cooldown = 1.5
Velocity = 1500 m/s
Rationale = Gulag improved heat and velocity over in-game, which I agree with, but I don't think those will do much to improve its value; the amount of tonnage the weapon soaks means it must be the primary batter and, as such, it needs more DPS to be worth taking over the improved Gulag-improved UAC/5. Ergo, I reduced its cool-down.

Clan AC/5
Volley Size = 1
Heat = 1.4
Cooldown = 1.75
Range = 630/1260 meters
Velocity = 1500 m/s
Rationale = Gulag merely increased velocity on this weapon, which is not enough to render it useful in any capacity. To make it useful, I changed its volley size from 2 to 1, but as payment for this dramatic shift in damage loading I returned its heat to the stock in-game value, reduced the range to match the IS version of the gun, and increased its cool-down so it doesn't out-class the IS version in DPS. Clans needed something to make PPFLD builds more fun, this is it.

AC/10
Heat = 2.25
Range = 510/1020 meters
Velocity = 1300 m/s
Rationale = This gun's entire niche is delivering front-loaded damage; Gulag buffed its velocity to help, but I think it also needs a slight increase to range to give it better sync with PPCs and fill this niche. It would also help it fill this niche at mid-range better than the improved Light Gauss.

Clan AC/10
Volley Size = 2
Velocity = 1300 m/s
Rationale = Similar rationale as my changes to the Clan AC/5, except this gun does not need a as many changes to become useful over the Gulag-changed C-UAC/10.

Ultra AC/10
Volley Size = 1
Heat = 3.25
Cooldown = 1.7
Rationale = Gulag thinks this weapon is mostly fine where it is and only reduced its base (non-double-tap) DPS, and I tend to agree with this change. I do, however, find that IS UAC builds run slightly too hot, and so I reduced its heat.

Ultra AC/20
Heat = 6
Cooldown = 5
Range = 300/600 meters
Velocity = 900 m/s
Rationale = Gulag improved velocity and reduced heat, which I agree with. I, however, feel that this weapon needs slightly more range than it is equipped with in-game; I do not foresee it being better than an AC/20 because the two weapons are so different; the AC/20 is a front-loaded gun that does all damage to one place and the UAC/20 fires a volley that will spread. Fore the same reason, I did not see the need for the UAC/20 to have a lower velocity than the AC/20.

There are other, less significant differences between me and the Gulag, but the spoiler contains the largest ones.

Number are great and all but spread sheets have limitations and don't always tell you whole story

[Y E O N N E]

SirSmokes, on 20 February 2021 - 11:54 AM, said:

Number are great and all but spread sheets have limitations and don't always tell you whole story

It's just a way of capturing all of the changes. The spreadsheets only reflect what I think the values should be; Gulag has already provided the rationale for their changes and I don't see the need to repeat it. If you want the rationale for my differences with Gulag, read the spoiler.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Miss Greene, on 20 February 2021 - 11:57 AM, said:

It's just a way of capturing all of the changes. The spreadsheets only reflect what I think the values should be; Gulag has already provided the rationale for their changes and I don't see the need to repeat it. If you want the rationale for my differences with Gulag, read the spoiler.

Nope it's pretty good only have a few minor quibbles. I want more ammo per ton on all none MG ballistics. Had so many builds close to work but for the fact it had too little ammo. I think he little to generous on some of the Clan laser buffs.

Edited by SirSmokes, 20 February 2021 - 12:17 PM.

[xAndy199]

SirSmokes, on 20 February 2021 - 11:54 AM, said:

Number are great and all but spread sheets have limitations and don't always tell you whole story

I see what the Gulag and people proposing modifications on their spreadsheet are trying to do,
and I think it'd be an excellent subtle improvement to the game balance,
but I believe messing with the weights and core mechanics is going to make builds more varied in the long run.

I don't want to flood the thread with my /20, I'll post one last time about it with a bulleted suggestion list so people who disagree see where I'm coming from (view this all from the IS side):

Touching anything with weight is going to require a painful rework of all stock loadouts, but what I propose would most deeply affect weapons not extensively used in stock loadouts, like Light PPCs, so it should be a manageable change

Autocannons
- AC/10 and UAC/10 are fine where they are
- normalize all other Autocannon ammo/ton values with AC/10 as a standard
- AC/10 stays at 230 damage per ton of ammo, other Autocannons should not dip below 190-200 potential damage
- Jam chance could be lower for smaller Autocannons
My complaint in a nutshell: if not limited by slots or hardpoints, /20 and HGauss don't justify the extra weight
2x UAC/10 vs UAC/20 + UAC/2, with the Catapult K2 as an example
2x 13 tons plus 2x tons of ammo per gun, yielding 30 tons with an XL Engine 280 (and 4 Medium Lasers)
vs
15 + 7 tons plus 2x tons of ammo per gun, switch from XL280 to LE280 (4 ton difference), yielding 30 tons (and 2 Medium Lasers and 1 MPL)
The builds should perform the same, but they won't, since the UAC/20 needs at least another half ton or ton of ammo to work reliably

Gauss
- relatively lower potential damage per ton of ammo justified by the increased range

IS Lasers
- Medium and Large are fine where they are
- Small need a very slight buff to make them anything but a free tonnage plug
- ER Small should not be 200% heat for 130% range

IS PPCs
- They are just too weak for the heat. While they aren't "missing" from the game, they are a MechWarrior icon and it's a shame they aren't prominent and borderline OP
- Light PPC goes down to 2 tons 1 slot, so you get a hierarchy like this: Medium Laser -> ER Medium Laser (more range for heat) -> MPL (more damage for more weight) = Light PPC (even more range for more weight and heat)
- Snub PPC gets splash damage to become something like an energy LBX, at 5 tons 2 slots - direct comparison to Large Laser yielding more total damage at close range in exchange for losing total range
- PPC performs as it does now, but gets put to 2 slots like the Snubbie to become a direct replacement for the Large Pulse Laser, more range for longer cooldowns
- ER PPC untouched? Dunno what would happen with 2 slot ER PPC

IS Missiles
- Gulag is on the right track with health varying by rack size

Edited by xAndy199, 20 February 2021 - 12:22 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

xAndy199, on 20 February 2021 - 12:18 PM, said:

Autocannons
- AC/10 and UAC/10 are fine where they are
- normalize all other Autocannon ammo/ton values with AC/10 as a standard
- AC/10 stays at 230 damage per ton of ammo, other Autocannons should not dip below 190-200 potential damage

I want to bump AC 10 ammo up to 260 damage per ton normalize from there with that. AC are heavy IS AC are very heavy upping the damage per ton will open up more build options

Edited by SirSmokes, 20 February 2021 - 12:56 PM.

[Kaneda Shotaru]

Hi there,

I wanted to suggest a mentality and then specifics:

I think many players have some established playstyles that could be disrupted by "nerfing" of specific weapons systems, and nerfing inevitably is a reduction in the playstyles available, while specific buffs are an addition!

- LRM Range Increase: It seems counter-intuitive that ATMs have a longer range than LRMs.
- Streak Heat Reduction: I think it will make them more viable a playstyle, as their heat increase from a while ago made them ineffective
- Flamer spread increase (Is this even possible given the current mechanic?)

[FupDup]

Kaneda Shotaru, on 20 February 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

- LRM Range Increase: It seems counter-intuitive that ATMs have a longer range than LRMs.

ATMs are supposed to have three different types of ammunition, with one of those types being Extended Range. In the board game, LRMs go out to 21 hexes while Extended-Range ATMs go out to 27 hexes.

ATMs in MWO are pretty useless outside of like 300 meters so in this game LRMs are far more effective at longer ranges than ATMs.

Kaneda Shotaru, on 20 February 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

- Flamer spread increase (Is this even possible given the current mechanic?)

Why would they need spread? They don't do any perceivable damage so that has no effect.

[Y E O N N E]

xAndy199, on 20 February 2021 - 12:18 PM, said:

I see what the Gulag and people proposing modifications on their spreadsheet are trying to do,
and I think it'd be an excellent subtle improvement to the game balance,
but I believe messing with the weights and core mechanics is going to make builds more varied in the long run.

Don't think weight/slots should be touched, it just upsets a lot of things like stock builds. There are other equipment available in BattleTech to achieve the slot changes and offset weight, don't need to do it to what's in-game now.

Edited by Miss Greene, 20 February 2021 - 12:46 PM.

[KursedVixen]

FupDup, on 20 February 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

ATMs are supposed to have three different types of ammunition, with one of those types being Extended Range. In the board game, LRMs go out to 21 hexes while Extended-Range ATMs go out to 27 hexes.

ATMs in MWO are pretty useless outside of like 300 meters so in this game LRMs are far more effective at longer ranges than ATMs.

ATMs in BT also could not do indirect fire, so your getting a slight bonus with them ,but also yeah their lower missile count and their inability to punch through AMS limits them compared to LRMs

[LRH1313]

I have been in the game for a few years, but would not be considered a "good" or even "average" player. I really enjoy the BT universe and like what MWO offers as a big stompy robot game. I am excited to see some more life being added to the game.

From a non power user perspective:

IS PPC:
I like PPC's and all the suggestions to IS PPC's, I think would be helpful. I don't understand how an energy weapon can suddenly go from 0 dmg to 10 dmg because it traveled an extra inch... a curve of damage increasing or just feedback damage decreasing as distance increases would make more sense.

LPPC's: reduce heat, weight, reload or increase range...
Snub: could increase range a little, but mostly reducing heat and/or recharge would be helpful.
IS PPC: damage/feedback curve at close range and reduce heat a little.
ER PPC: good as is.

IS Gauss:
Please move the charge up before firing the gauss it to after the shot is taken. Add the cool down to the charge time and make them the same thing. This way it is still justifiable to have the weapon explode upon crit. Also, with an extra long charge cycle/CD, a missed shot will be more painful for the operator while making snapshots viable.

Also, generally increasing the max range of Gauss (3X as stated earlier) makes a whole lot of sense.

LGauss: Drop a ton or two, increase dmg to 10, increase range.
Gauss: Good as is.
HGauss: Reduce slots by 1 and make it only peaceable in ST.

Overall, I like SirSmokes modifications of the Gulag proposal the best. MWO is a fantastic game which is equally fun and frustrating. It is a good de-stressor after a long day at work and seeing some work done on it is hopeful. Please don't discredit input from non-top tier players. MWO is our game too.

P.S.
Any new period and lore accurate weapons would be very welcome!

[w0qj]

1. Suggestion for *all* pop-tarting balancing (including Vapor Eagle):
==>How about increasing the weapon spread % further more when one is flying on Jump Jet and shooting at the same time mid-air?

1a) The mechanic is already ingame:
+% weapon spread for missiles and ballistic weapons already there.

1b) Perhaps Lasers should hit even more of other body parts instead of just the component hit by the laser.
Clan lasers and ERPPC already this mechanic ingame already?

[PokeyRodger]

Hi I'm new tot his game and probably won't be much of a help in this case.
But I found the RAC5 and the UAC20's to be... Kinda useless?
They jam way faster than even their normal counter parts! It's annoying when you build around a weapon on a heavy or medium, and they just jam. Better off with their normal version, sometime I can just click and no bullet comes out at all! Let alone 2!
Clan micro/small lasers seem a bit weak? Well they are supposed to. And most light mech run a dozen of them. But even on a IS heavy that run a few small laser, it has more of a component killer effect than the clan ones.
Haven't played much else, but in mechwarrior5 the Gauss seems way overpowered, and here it's eh. Dunno. Don't want to cod sniper everyone from across the field. Cooldown is a bit long on them.

That's it for me, been enjoying RAC2's, medium lasers and large lasers a lot.
UAC's are bad lol, waste of time. They JAM more then they BANG, even when watching youtubers like baradul and TTB, jam 50% of the time. Mechwarrior5's are more fun. I guess they shoot more weaker bullets? Kinda like the RAC2?