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Intel Gathering: Weapons Balance Pass 1


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#121 Sol Lunari

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:09 PM

The IS LB20X requiring a standard engine to mount, this makes the weapon garbage. I was excited to learn or it's inclusion, then saw this and will never run it in a single mech that I play. Standard engines have their place, but requiring a standard by default to even fit this weapon makes it pointless.

The IS AC5. I never use this weapon, for some reason it is very lack luster compared to running LB5X, Ultra5 or even just an AC2. Something about it is off.

Snub PPC's. They seem a ton too heavy for what they are. Of all the mechs I own, I only use it on one and that's entirely because of center torso mount and pairing with the SRM6. It has too much heat, too short of range, too long of a cooldown and too much tonage to warrant using it in almost all circumstances.

#122 --GameOver

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:10 PM

View PostTesunie, on 19 February 2021 - 09:47 AM, said:

Keep in mind that this would wreck builds that don't boat LRMs... and would actually force LRMs to be boat or go home weapons...

I know my Huntsmen build (2 LRM15s, 4 ERMLs) would no longer have enough ammo to function if the amount of missiles was dropped too much lower. My Stalker (2 LRM15s, 4 MLs and 2 MRM10s) also would become hard pressed and probably would need to be complete overhauled as well. Etc.

I don't think missile ammo count per ton of ammo is the problem...

Why not?) In some cases, it would be possible to switch from LRM15A to LRM15. In others, switch from MRM to SRM. It's just a suggestion.

#123 StraferXTG

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:11 PM

Where to begin? I started MW with the board games in the 1980's. First prob is heat dissipation. a 10 second round, I loved my 55 ton mech with 5/8/0 XL engine 13 IS ML with 20 DHS (4 ml in legs, which you cannot do in this game I think). The point was, that 39 heat build up dissipated every 10 seconds and you build it up over 10 seconds. But real time games never seem to get it right with lasers. The heat is generated all at once and then you get to fire more than once in 10 seconds so, yeah, ez overheat! Given RAC's fire way too fast so I see why they are more popular than laser builds. If you can't solve heat, then weapons balance will ultimately not be helpful.

Options: 1) Heat monitor starts at a negative number based on heat sinks avail. So when I fire my lasers, my final heat build up only goes up just above 0. With the slow cool down as you have. 2) If you keep current heat monitor and the heat is dissipated over 10 seconds, fine, but if a medium laser fires every 5 seconds (for argument sake only) then it only builds an instant 1.5 heat instead of 3 and only 2.5 damage instead of 5, but you fire twice in a melee. That should be an ez fix for every weapon actually.

New weapons? Thunder LRM? SRM2 INFERNO? Arrow IV? HATCHET! (hatchet swing instead of firing a weapon, cannot link with any other "fired" weapon, needs its own button to "fire"/swing and with increased accuracy to head like in the old days). Speaking of inferno here are some buff / nerf ideas...

-Ultra AC's don't fire 2 with one push of a button...I think it should just fire 2 then cooldown.
-IS Flamer can't shut down anything but i've been shut down (even with a ton of heatsinks and not firing) by a single cHvyFlamer and can't start back up. The clan hvy flamer is broken, needs a nerf and / or buff IS Flamer.
-I don't like the hold button to fire gauss, rather one click of button and it automatically does the warm up and fire for you so you can focus on keeping the target under reticle...I miss "target under reticle" as it honors LOS rules and you should be able to target even a stealth build that way if you have valid LOS.

Rescale some mechs, some too tall or too short. That will help with weapons balancing given what can or cannot be hit simply because of size of mech. (ex: locust too short?). Also my Anh 1E (energy build annihilator), his arms don't seem to target the reticle but rather just shoot straight ahead and under the reticle and so when target appears to be dead to rights, my 2 hvy ppc's just shoot the gound? So some mechs need balancing too to make weapons more fair. Speaking of my hvy ppc's, and energy weapons in general, the damage fall off is too harsh. RAC5's can wreck faster than hvy PPC's, just something not right there.

Lastly, I just reached tier 4 after playing for 2 months on/off. Wish there were perks for it! One possibility is that you get more picks from a skill tree or you unlock a new "tier 4 " skill tree. Maybe get some crit perks, faster locks, less damage spread, or maybe that head sweet spot isn't so tiny anymore.

No Guts, No Galaxy!

#124 Stimraug

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:19 PM

Give gauss rifles their role of extreme range superiority back. Give them the old 3x optimal max range, or even 4x. For added skill ceiling, possibly tie charge time to the max range with 2-3s of charge doubling the optimal range, but also increasing cooldown if charged fully / more.

#125 Matmoesa

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:20 PM

View PostStraferXTG, on 19 February 2021 - 12:11 PM, said:

Lastly, I just reached tier 4 after playing for 2 months on/off. Wish there were perks for it! One possibility is that you get more picks from a skill tree or you unlock a new "tier 4 " skill tree. Maybe get some crit perks, faster locks, less damage spread, or maybe that head sweet spot isn't so tiny anymore.


congrats on reaching Tier 4- I assume this is your Pilot Tier you speaking about? if so there should be no bonus or penalty for going up or down Tiers it's a system designed to pit you with pilots of similar skill and to give you the best game experience.

It shouldn't be something you should concern yourself about.

Edited by Matmoesa, 19 February 2021 - 12:22 PM.


#126 StraferXTG

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:22 PM

View PostSol Lunari, on 19 February 2021 - 12:09 PM, said:

The IS LB20X requiring a standard engine to mount, this makes the weapon garbage. I was excited to learn or it's inclusion, then saw this and will never run it in a single mech that I play. Standard engines have their place, but requiring a standard by default to even fit this weapon makes it pointless.

The IS AC5. I never use this weapon, for some reason it is very lack luster compared to running LB5X, Ultra5 or even just an AC2. Something about it is off.

Snub PPC's. They seem a ton too heavy for what they are. Of all the mechs I own, I only use it on one and that's entirely because of center torso mount and pairing with the SRM6. It has too much heat, too short of range, too long of a cooldown and too much tonage to warrant using it in almost all circumstances.


In old days (1980's board version) LB ACs could opt for slug vs scattershot muitions. Would like that option with more crit chance on scattershot. In addition to my earlier post..how about Swarm LRMS? Help break up those clustered mechs! Also a fix to tag is needed. One swipe and every missle hits. Need to make as intended...keep on target for benefit!

#127 byter75

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:29 PM

To give my own two cents, I've put together a document with my thoughts on weapon balance:
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

The first page quickly shows how I would rank or grade the weapons, the rest of the document explains my reasoning and makes balance suggestions (balance suggestions are on pages 5 & 8).

I am curious how other people would rank the various weapon systems of the game. Which ones are typically seen as overperformers or underperformers, etc etc.

Though please don't take this too seriously, it's just little old me who put this together in one afternoon. ;)

#128 MyriadDigits

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:29 PM

View PostStraferXTG, on 19 February 2021 - 12:11 PM, said:

Where to begin? I started MW with the board games in the 1980's. First prob is heat dissipation. a 10 second round, I loved my 55 ton mech with 5/8/0 XL engine 13 IS ML with 20 DHS (4 ml in legs, which you cannot do in this game I think). The point was, that 39 heat build up dissipated every 10 seconds and you build it up over 10 seconds. But real time games never seem to get it right with lasers. The heat is generated all at once and then you get to fire more than once in 10 seconds so, yeah, ez overheat! Given RAC's fire way too fast so I see why they are more popular than laser builds. If you can't solve heat, then weapons balance will ultimately not be helpful.

Options: 1) Heat monitor starts at a negative number based on heat sinks avail. So when I fire my lasers, my final heat build up only goes up just above 0. With the slow cool down as you have. 2) If you keep current heat monitor and the heat is dissipated over 10 seconds, fine, but if a medium laser fires every 5 seconds (for argument sake only) then it only builds an instant 1.5 heat instead of 3 and only 2.5 damage instead of 5, but you fire twice in a melee. That should be an ez fix for every weapon actually.

New weapons? Thunder LRM? SRM2 INFERNO? Arrow IV? HATCHET! (hatchet swing instead of firing a weapon, cannot link with any other "fired" weapon, needs its own button to "fire"/swing and with increased accuracy to head like in the old days). Speaking of inferno here are some buff / nerf ideas...

-Ultra AC's don't fire 2 with one push of a button...I think it should just fire 2 then cooldown.
-IS Flamer can't shut down anything but i've been shut down (even with a ton of heatsinks and not firing) by a single cHvyFlamer and can't start back up. The clan hvy flamer is broken, needs a nerf and / or buff IS Flamer.
-I don't like the hold button to fire gauss, rather one click of button and it automatically does the warm up and fire for you so you can focus on keeping the target under reticle...I miss "target under reticle" as it honors LOS rules and you should be able to target even a stealth build that way if you have valid LOS.

Rescale some mechs, some too tall or too short. That will help with weapons balancing given what can or cannot be hit simply because of size of mech. (ex: locust too short?). Also my Anh 1E (energy build annihilator), his arms don't seem to target the reticle but rather just shoot straight ahead and under the reticle and so when target appears to be dead to rights, my 2 hvy ppc's just shoot the gound? So some mechs need balancing too to make weapons more fair. Speaking of my hvy ppc's, and energy weapons in general, the damage fall off is too harsh. RAC5's can wreck faster than hvy PPC's, just something not right there.

Lastly, I just reached tier 4 after playing for 2 months on/off. Wish there were perks for it! One possibility is that you get more picks from a skill tree or you unlock a new "tier 4 " skill tree. Maybe get some crit perks, faster locks, less damage spread, or maybe that head sweet spot isn't so tiny anymore.

No Guts, No Galaxy!


MWO is not tabletop and should not be balanced as such. If you want a digital game balanced like tabletop Battletech by Harebrained Schemes is a thing.

Heavy Flamers aren't a thing in MWO, flamers for both factions will not heat past 90%. If you are shutting down because of flamers it's because you pulled the trigger.

Even in your beloved tabletop UACs always had the option to only fire once.

Your Anni's HPPCs eating dirt isn't some fault of convergence, its you as the pilot being inattentive to how low the mounts are in relation to the cockpit.

The game artificially making things easier for higher tier players is an awful idea, especially for new players who struggle enough as is.

#129 Vindicated

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:34 PM

View PostKurt the Merc, on 19 February 2021 - 09:19 AM, said:

I personally don't see much incentive to use standard Auto Cannons over Ultras. They weigh the same and take the same slots. You can argue they don't jam, but if I don't double tap, the uacs work the same. So why would I ever use an Auto Cannon.

This is not entirely true, only clan UACs weigh the same as regular clan AC, IS do not (extra ton).

For IS, the UAC10 and UAC20 are multi pellet unlike clan. In contrast, the AC10 and AC20 are single pellet. You may hear the term PPFLD occasionally which stands for pinpoint (no spread) front loaded (all damage done on initial hit) damage meaning if you hit, all that damage goes to one component. While not too common, this is part of the reason someone would want a 3 AC10 Victor, repeatable 30 PPFLD alpha.

For clan, this is not the case, AC5 and up are multi pellet like UAC, trading off only heat for double tap potential. These are not very popular. The only standout is the clan AC10 which has the same 2 heat as the LB10X (pick pinpoint vs front loaded) which is almost half the heat of UAC10 (2 vs 3.5) though in most cases UAC10 ends up being preferred anyways (most likely to avoid losing trades)

For clan and IS UAC2, they are both single pellet but UAC2 has a range penalty in addition to heat. AC2 is the more popular of these. Extra heat kills sustain, and a problem I've ran into is they tend to get out of sync after jamming.

#130 Firewolfslayer

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:51 PM

recently I feel that I've been getting legged way more than often in my heavies and assaults, mostly from lrms lol

#131 VixNix

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:06 PM

Tag not being able to lock on ECM within 90 means ECM mech can effectively shut off an attackers ability to do any damage.
line of sight lag should be able to allow lock.

AMS, without any thought given to load-outs when creating groups, can and often does lead to one team being overwhelmingly anti missile.

#132 Vindicated

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:06 PM

View PostStraferXTG, on 19 February 2021 - 12:11 PM, said:

Rescale some mechs, some too tall or too short. That will help with weapons balancing given what can or cannot be hit simply because of size of mech. (ex: locust too short?). Also my Anh 1E (energy build annihilator), his arms don't seem to target the reticle but rather just shoot straight ahead and under the reticle and so when target appears to be dead to rights, my 2 hvy ppc's just shoot the gound? So some mechs need balancing too to make weapons more fair. Speaking of my hvy ppc's, and energy weapons in general, the damage fall off is too harsh. RAC5's can wreck faster than hvy PPC's, just something not right there.


Arm mounts too low: Known tradeoff, a lot of players pick mechs specifically based off high mounts. For example ERLL Battlemaster 1G. I have this problem with 6AC2 + ERPPC Anni 2A as well, a lot of firepower is down low so positioning is more critical to avoid arm mounts hitting hill or side cover.

Weapon convergence: While this effect is minor, also a known limitation. Shots go toward where the crosshair is pointed on the ground (which can beyond the target) which can be a little off if weapons are mounted too far apart

Heavy PPC vs RAC5: RAC5 is generally only regarded as good by low tier players. A lot of things bad about it, heat, spread, velocity, duration, in contrast to RAC2. That said, the weapons are a different playstyle. RACs require a few seconds of prolonged exposure time, where PPCs favor low exposure time, especially poptarting, where you can get a shot off quickly and fall back behind cover. PPCs have worse sustained DPS than ballistics, you want to use your low exposure time to take less damage and stay alive longer to deal it back.

#133 Brauer

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:12 PM

View PostVixNix, on 19 February 2021 - 01:06 PM, said:

Tag not being able to lock on ECM within 90 means ECM mech can effectively shut off an attackers ability to do any damage.
line of sight lag should be able to allow lock.

AMS, without any thought given to load-outs when creating groups, can and often does lead to one team being overwhelmingly anti missile.


A mech with a tag should also be running a probe, so one ecm mech shouldn't be shutting a mech down as one probe cancels one ecm.

#134 IThatOneNinjaI

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:32 PM

For the first pass, I'd like to see weapons that are mostly useless get large buffs. There are plenty of weapons that could use minor tweaks but making useless weapons better would be the best way to increase build diversity and get people interested in playing.

Streaks - Perhaps decrease lock-on times. Between peaking and NASCAR its hard to ever get a chance to lock-on.

Flamers - TBH, I'm not sure encouraging this type of gameplay would be fun but they could be better than they are now.

Light Gauss - More damage

Light PPC - More damage/less heat

Clan ACs - Seriously, why are these even coded into the game? They are just a new player trap right now. Any number of things could be done to them but please just make them not useless.

#135 Vindicated

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:40 PM

View PostSol Lunari, on 19 February 2021 - 12:09 PM, said:

The IS LB20X requiring a standard engine to mount, this makes the weapon garbage. I was excited to learn or it's inclusion, then saw this and will never run it in a single mech that I play. Standard engines have their place, but requiring a standard by default to even fit this weapon makes it pointless.

The IS AC5. I never use this weapon, for some reason it is very lack luster compared to running LB5X, Ultra5 or even just an AC2. Something about it is off.

Snub PPC's. They seem a ton too heavy for what they are. Of all the mechs I own, I only use it on one and that's entirely because of center torso mount and pairing with the SRM6. It has too much heat, too short of range, too long of a cooldown and too much tonage to warrant using it in almost all circumstances.


LB20X: I've seen 2 of these used in some catapult builds, sometimes thanatos. The catapults I've ran into quite a bit in solaris, where ditching some speed and/or ammo count is not too uncommon.

AC5: PPFLD, pinpoint meaning no spread (unlike LB5X) and front loaded meaning all damage landing in the first shot, aka going to one component. I could see you preferring UAC5 (such as 4 UAC5) though this depends on the extra ton being viable (sometimes I like to run a 4 AC5 Jager where 4 UAC5 is a significant engine drop). I cannot see LB5X being better though. If you can aim somewhat well (specifically in this case leading targets), you can use the pinpoint of AC5s to focus down a component on a mech vs spreading all over. Vs AC2, the range and DPS is lower, but you get more PPFLD.

Snub: Top level players on the first page agree they should buffed, such as less heat.

Edited by Vindicated, 19 February 2021 - 01:41 PM.


#136 Death Dealer 199

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 02:14 PM

Make gause riffles function like they did in the early days. Once charged they stay charged until fired. Increase charge time to balance them.

#137 ErinaceusSwe

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 02:36 PM

In a nutshell: Some weapons aren't viable due to better alternatives. All weapons should have a niche and be useful within it.
  • Light gauss rifle. Longer range so removing charge up will make it easier to lead your target. Fits better in it's niche.
  • Small/micro lasers overall. Needs more dps to make closing with target worth it.
  • Pulse lasers. On a scale of damage and exposure time they should fit better right in the middle of regular lasers and PPCs. How exactly you achieve that doesn't really matter to me but I think more damage should be enough. Although...I DO have a soft spot for MW3 type pulse lasers. Just sayin'.
  • Streaks.Too good against lights. Too bad against everything else. Ironically given my attitude I think they are too specialised to make it worth it. Making them worse at following a moving target but reducing lock on time should at least help. Maybe needs other buffs. Would also rewards lights for keeping on the move.
  • LB5, UAC5 and AC5. I would say the problem is 10s have too much range and 2s have too much dps. Reduce fire rate of 2 and lower range of 10. Would need some proper graphs to figure out how much exactly.
  • Low number missiles. All kinds. The basic problem is "Why not go for more missiles per launcher?" Further reducing heat/tonnage/critslots probably necessary. Would also need math to figure out how much.
    I don't really use LRMs so I won't say anything about them specifically. As a receiving end user I think they're pretty good where they are. Would like more incentive for line of sight to be used by the lurmer or TAG to be used by spotters.
  • Machine guns. The three different variants need more distinction imo. All MGs fits the niche of cleanup weapons. Giving them a damage multiplier to armour would help. Just pulling some numbers out of a hat: LMGs could get 0.1, MGs 0.2 and HMGs 0.4. I think the crit mechanic isn't enough, LBs have than niche. Would need a lot of math to get right though.
  • RAC5. in almost all ways worse than RAC2s. Too similar range bracket to RAC2s. Decrease range, up damage and lower heat. Make it a brawling rac. Possibly just reduce firerate instead of jamming when bar is full. RAC2s can just step into cover to recover due to range.
  • Light PPCs.Versus using other PPCs. Using extra hardpoints for saving some weight and cooldown doesn't make it worth it unless ghost heat limit was higher. Even then convergence would overall make other PPCs the preferred choice. Rather than increase the GHL to compete with the alpha of the other PPCs just decrease heat by a fair amount. This will make it fill a niche among enery weapons more similar to say light Gauss rifles.
  • Snub PPCs. Too low damage per heat. Apart from obvious solutions which I would honestly prefeer, Maybe give it splash damage? Maybe increase total damage by making it a UAC or LB type PPC. Or just do the obvious solution.
  • IS ERPPC. Either reduce heat or give splash damage or both.
  • Clan ACs vs UACs. Equalize critslot usage with UACs. Uacs should have higher burst damage. ACs higher DPS. to that end increase fire rate of cACs. Math is needed to decide whether adjustments vs IS variants are necessary at that point.
  • Light tag. Give to IS. Do that in either case. Increase lock-on bonus vs regular tag. Or Make it invisible to enemies.
  • Flamer. To ineffective. Make it give heat relative to targets dissipation. It's niche is to reduce enemy ability to fire back effectively increasing the survivability of you and your team. It should not be a kind of stunlocker. Potentially cap it to decrease annoyance at the recieving end. For example (with numbers I spent a full second thinking about): One flamer can only heat a target to 15% of heat disspation. 2 to 30% etc. make sure it can't heat beyond say 75% of dissipation. Not the faintest if that's technically possible though even if you simplify it as "give heat equal to 15% of target dissipation". If not, just increase heat for target a bit.
And before I knew it I had written an essay.
I care too much. Posted Image
But not enough to do all that math.

#138 3RoyalStar1

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 02:37 PM

Ok so flamers are useless even some small pulses are kinda effective
Why use rac5 when you have rac2
I can’t understand how to use IS UAC 2 and 5
Streak SRMs are useless in my opinion
Lppc suck to




Please don’t get rid of lurms they aren’t bad there are lots of ways to avoid getting killed by them

Edited by 3RoyalStar1, 19 February 2021 - 02:38 PM.


#139 Paradoxbound

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 02:37 PM

Fix AMS so that it doesn't fire through solid objects, it is an exploit and a cheat and makes no sense. I play both LRM boats and AMS builds. Feel free to modify the AMS rules to compensate. Increased range and more damage to missiles if necessary.

#140 KursedVixen

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 02:47 PM

View PostVoice of Kerensky, on 18 February 2021 - 08:01 PM, said:

By the way, I am inclined to support my comrades who call for a more sober approach to Gauss rifles.
They have very little health. Their crit chance is more than high (especially the Clan GR and IS HGR), they die very quickly if there is no armor. But tell me WHY do they explode? What's the logic? The GR has already received its crit, it is not dangerous longer. The most powerful weapon has ALREADY been disabled, WHY need explode it, tearing off half of the mech along with the remnants of weaker weapons?
yes why does the guass rifle explode since you've removed the whole reason it explodes in the first place? The reason the guass exploded in the first place was because the capacitors holding the Charge but since you have to charge the gun up the whole exploding thing makes no sense now.

My suggestions:

Ce Er medium laser: Raise damage back up to 7 so it's not the same as the Er small heavy.
CERPPC: Fix damage display to show the 5 damage spread, or give it 15 pinpoint damage like it's suppose to have.

Edited by KursedVixen, 19 February 2021 - 02:50 PM.






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