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Intel Gathering: Weapons Balance Pass 1


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#381 The6thMessenger

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 12:12 AM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 23 February 2021 - 11:51 PM, said:

View PostKursedVixen, on 23 February 2021 - 03:10 PM, said:

Clan ERPPC needs to do it's canon 15 damage.... it's absurd that you can do more damage with a large pulse or even a large laser.


You realize that in fact the C-ER PPC does 15 damage, right? It just doesnt apply them pinpoint, rather 10 pinpoint plus 2x2.5 splash. Just saying. Making proposals on false presumptions seems kind of pointless to me.


How is that even absurd? It's a 6-ton weapon that deals front-loaded damage with partial pinpoint damage at longer ranges, versus the laser that require stare-time.

It anything it should do less less than 15 in total, or equal to LPL damage.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 February 2021 - 03:38 AM.


#382 Naryck

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 02:22 AM

gauss rifle mechanic proposal:
after cooldown it should recharge automatically in 5 seconds (time is subject to discuss) and you can fire it without delay, but it will reduce dps;
if you want to skip that 5 seconds autocharge and fire (almost) immediately after cooldown - you can fire it like you do it now with manual charge;
and about gauss rifle explosion: if it was not charged - it should not explode, it should just be destroyed without internal damage. otherwise - if it was charged - yes, it can do internal damage to your 'mech

#383 KursedVixen

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 04:01 AM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 23 February 2021 - 11:51 PM, said:

You realize that in fact the C-ER PPC does 15 damage, right? It just doesnt apply them pinpoint, rather 10 pinpoint plus 2x2.5 splash. Just saying. Making proposals on false presumptions seems kind of pointless to me.
i meant 15 pinpoint and remove the splash.. and I'll put it this way if the readout doesn't say it does that amount of damage it doesn't exist... which is why i said before SHOW THAT IN THE DAMAGE READOUT FOR THE WEAPON IN THE MECHLAB!!



View PostThe6thMessenger, on 24 February 2021 - 12:12 AM, said:


How is that even absurd? It's a 6-ton weapon that deals front-loaded damage with partial pinpoint damage at longer ranges, versus the laser that require stare-time.

It anything it should do less less than 15 in total, or equal to LPL damage.
meanwhile your IS heavy PPC does 15 pinpoint damage... And don't tell me it does splash because the display does not say that i'm looking at this from a new players perspective.

I think the heavy PPC should do the same damage as the Clan ERPPC with that little bit of splash.

View PostShooterMcGavin80, on 23 February 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

IMHO:

Autocannons: Standard, UAC, and LBX.

I really have no issues with any autocannons, clan or IS. The autocannons you don't see much of on the battlefield are: IS standard AC10's, but they're actually decent, so only the slightest of buffs (5% cooldown maybe?) for them. Also the IS LB5X doesn’t get much usage, a tiny buff in some direction other might be helpful for it. Otherwise I would not mess with IS AC’s, UAC’s, or LBX’s. The clan standard AC5, 10, and 20 are basically never used. Maybe they could be spiced up by reducing the number of shells they use and increasing their velocity. AC5: 1 shell, AC10: 2 shells, AC20: 2 shells. You might actually see some on the battlefield, but I don’t think it would be a game-changer. Also, like the IS LB5X, the clan LB5X is also barely ever used. Maybe a cooldown or spread buff would help it out. Otherwise clan AC’s and UAC’s are doing fine. UAC10’s and UAC5’s are great en masse, and AC2’s LB2X’s, LB10X’s, and LB20X’s are doin’ fine. Clan UAC2’s are really getting outshined by clan AC2’s. But I wouldn’t nerf clan AC2’s, I’d slightly buff the UAC2 (less heat, less jam chance).

RAC’s:

They’re fine. Triple RAC2 is outshining 2xRAC5, but honestly I don’t think they need to be messed with. Maybe a velocity or ammo capacity buff to RAC5’s, or a slight heat or rampdown buff to the RAC5’s to make them slightly more appealing, but nothing major.

Machine Guns:

Fine. I think LMG’s got nerfed a little too hard, they’re kinda useless again. Nerfing them was good I think, but maybe reduce their spread back to the point where they’re not a laser beam, but they’re something much tighter than what they are right now. HMG’s you usually never see, but I do have them on a few builds and they’re fun, I wouldn’t mess with them. Would be interesting to have the LBX spread nodes also affect machine gun spread, giving a slight MG spread reduction.

Gauss Rifles:

The only ones that really need possible tuning are the light gauss. The only semi-effective light gauss build right now is the quad light gauss Fafnir. Single or double light gauss builds are pretty anemic. If you give it a damage buff, it needs a cooldown nerf. The light gauss is something to play with.

IS lasers:

In general, IS lasers outperform clan lasers at this point. The burn time is significantly shorter and the heat is significantly more manageable. IS MPL's are crazy easy beast weapons. ML's are fantastic, I'd prefer an IS ML over a Clan ERSL even though it is a half ton heavier. I can perform much more consistently in an IS laserboat or IS MPL skirmisher than I can in any clan laser vomit mech. IS ML, LL, ERLL, SL, MPL, LPL, are all great. The only IS lasers you don't see that much of are ERSL, SPL, and ERML. All in all, though, I feel like IS lasers are pretty close to where they need to be, so they don't need a huge nerfbat, just a slight adjustment. Maybe a tiny 5% or less burn time increase and heat increase on all but the ERSL, SPL, and ERML. Give the ERSL, SPL, and ERML the tiniest of buffs to see if they become more usable.

Clan lasers:

Fun, but basically terrible anywhere outside a safe midrange peaking game. Clan lasers are basically completely ineffective against lights and many mediums. The decently performing but not great: LPL, MPL, ERLL, ERML, ERuL, HLL, HML, HSL. The terrible: SPL, uPL, ERSL. I would give the 'good but not great' lasers tiny (5% or so) reductions in heat and burn time, and for the terrible give: SPL: more damage, uPL - tiny bit more of something, ERSL - less heat, less burn time.

PPC’s

PPC’s both clan and IS are in a good place. The only one to slightly possibly mess with are the light PPC’s, which never see much use. I think they pair great with AC5’s, but they’re hardly meta or prominent on the battlefield. Only a sliiight cooldown reduction and heat reduction might make them more prominent. Snub PPC’s are also not used much, but I wouldn’t give them more than a tiny (5% or less) heat reduction. Clan ERPPC’s are one of the few good weapons the clan has, and they’re borderline too hot, but they’re fine. Keep’em where they’re at.

Flamers:

I never use them. I saw somebody else suggest to give them the same DPS as a light machine gun. I don’t know if I’d go that far, but I’d consider giving them maybe .25 DPS. But do we really need more flamers? Ugh. Maybe only .2 DPS.

TAG:

TAG and LTAG are fine.

LRM’s

Honestly, they’re fine. I preferred having higher-arc LRM’s all the time (less ability to dodge behind low cover). But the low-arc LOS mechanic didn’t break LRM’s, they’re still okay. IS LRM’s are naaaasty, clan LRM’s also have good raw DPS. LRM’s are fine, both artemis and non-artemis varieties. LRM5’s both clan and IS are basically useless, but I don’t think there’s really anything that can be done about it nor really any benefit to buffing LRM5’s in some crazy way.

ATM’s

They’re fine. They’re powerful, but they can get shut down by heavy AMS/ECM/cover presence. Much like LRM’s the smaller launchers (ATM3, ATM6) are kinda useless, but I am not sure what benefit giving them a big buff would really serve. They already have an AMS resistance buff, maybe just give them a cooldown buff too?

MRM’s

Also fine, great even. 10’s, 20’s, 30’s and 40’s are all good.

SSRM

Streaks are also fine. Unlike LRM’s and ATM’s, they suffer less from the small launcher sucks syndrome, SSRM2’s en masse are not terrible. Big launcher is still king though. All in all would not change streaks.

SRM:

Only real grippe here is how clan SRM’s without artemis have teeerrrible spread, making their effective range basically point-blank. Tighten that up a tiny bit (5 or 10%). Especially the clan SRM2 and SRM2A. Also IS SRM’s do not need the damage increase over clan SRM’s. They already have very effective nice tight spread, making them awesome brawling weapons.

NARC:

Fine.

Rockets:

Meh, they’re fine. Wouldn’t buff them. Getting killed every now and then from a rocket troll does not need a buff.

AMS:

Fine. Initially I hated the ‘smaller launchers have more AMS resistant missiles’ mechanic, but effectively it hasn’t changed gameplay. Only mechanic change I think needs to be that you can switch off AMS or laser AMS independently. I think right now if you switch off AMS you switch off both types. Or at least a buddy mentioned that as an issue.
clan laser duration could use a very small buff...

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 February 2021 - 04:18 AM.


#384 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 04:16 AM

View PostKursedVixen, on 24 February 2021 - 04:04 AM, said:

meanwhile your IS heavy PPC does 15 pinpoint damage...

And has Minimum Range
And has less range
And has less projectile speed
And is 4 tons heavier
And is 2 slots bulkier
And has to rely on 3-slot heatsinks for cooling
And... shall I go on?

I really think that the C-ER PPC is in a good place and does not need a change, least a buff.
One could think you got a little bias in your way to a balanced perspective.

#385 KursedVixen

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 04:28 AM

A three slot heat sink with more health the the clan 2 slot heat sink... and probably some hidden extra dissapation or heat capacity like how they hide the extra 5 splash on the CERPPC

I've never seen anybody abuse that minimium range usually there are other weapons to cover that range anyway and thus why the minimium range mechanic is still there to prevent boating.

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 February 2021 - 04:32 AM.


#386 The6thMessenger

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 04:50 AM

View PostKursedVixen, on 24 February 2021 - 04:01 AM, said:

meanwhile your IS heavy PPC does 15 pinpoint damage... And don't tell me it does splash because the display does not say that i'm looking at this from a new players perspective.


It's not splash. Then again you're comparing a 10-ton weapon that is used by IS mechs that fields generally heavier and larger equipment, such as XL engine and 3-slot DHS versus 2.

Come on, how is that an argument? That's like a child arguing that another kid gets two candy bar, while he only gets one.

Heres a 2x ERPPC Hunchback IIC, that is 83% heat efficiency, 4.84 h/s dissipation, 5.01 sustained DPS.

Here's a 2x HPPC Shadow Hawk, full blown 5-ton heavier, 64% heat efficiency, 3.74 h/s dissipation, 3.87 sustained DPS.

Here's a 2x HPPC Griffin, similarly 5 ton heavier with -5% energy heat quirk, 4.07 sustained DPS.

You know the lightest closes IS mech i could get with equivalent S-DPS? 2x HPPC Rifleman with 5.04 SDPS, full blown 10-tons more, no JJ, moves slower, nevermind the engine that isn't torso-survivable.

So you got a Clan rig 5 ton lighter, does more sustained DPS -- and requires around 10 tons of difference and quirks to match the same SDPS. This is why I advocate for CERPPC nerf. direct damage and heat reduction, because that puts a direct cap on the output. All things considering, the IS PPCs, all of it, needs all the help they could get.

While I shy away from 1:1 comparison, come on, Clan is comparatively broken - "asymmetric balancing" my ***, that's just min-maxers looking for more abusable advantages. The reality is that, Clans have access for more firepower because of less tonnage. This ain't TT, this is FPS Mech PVP Arcade, it needs to have a semblance of balance.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 February 2021 - 05:35 AM.


#387 xAndy199

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 05:34 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 24 February 2021 - 04:50 AM, said:


It's not splash. Then again you're comparing a 10-ton weapon that is used by IS mechs that fields generally heavier and larger equipment, such as XL engine and 3-slot DHS versus 2.

Come on, how is that an argument? That's like a child arguing that another kid gets two candy bar, while he only gets one.

Heres a 2x ERPPC Hunchback IIC, that is 83% heat efficiency, 4.84 h/s dissipation, 5.01 sustained DPS.

Here's a 2x HPPC Shadow Hawk, full blown 5-ton heavier, 64% heat efficiency, 3.74 h/s dissipation, 3.87 sustained DPS.

Here's a 2x HGR Griffin, similarly 5 ton heavier with -5% energy heat quirk, 4.07 sustained DPS.

You know the lightest closes IS mech i could get with equivalent S-DPS? RFL-5D, full blown 10-tons more, no JJ, moves slower, nevermind the engine that isn't torso-survivable.

So you got a Clan rig 5 ton lighter, does more sustained DPS -- and requires around 10 tons of difference to match the same SDPS. This is why I advocate for CERPPC nerf. direct damage and heat reduction, because that puts a direct cap on the output. All things considering, the IS PPCs, all of it, needs all the help they could get.

While I shy away from 1:1 comparison, come on, Clan is comparatively broken - "asymmetric balancing my ***", that's just min-maxers looking for more abusable advantages. The reality is that, Clans have access for more firepower because of less tonnage. This ain't TT, this is FPS Mech PVP Arcade, it needs to have a semblance of balance.

Hit the nail on the head.
This is why the IS PPC line needs to be compared to IS lasers.
The C ER PPC has its place compared to C Lasers, but only the IS HPPC isn't out-performed by a colder and oftentimes lighter IS laser

#388 The6thMessenger

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 05:50 AM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 24 February 2021 - 04:16 AM, said:

I really think that the C-ER PPC is in a good place and does not need a change, least a buff.
One could think you got a little bias in your way to a balanced perspective.


Too good, all things considering. It's only balancing grace is immense heat, that which generally you have to invest a good amount of heatsink for sustained that could have been put somewhere else. Had they have a direct damage output cap, the CERPPC could find better synergy with the rest of Clan weapons.

View PostxAndy199, on 24 February 2021 - 05:34 AM, said:

Hit the nail on the head.
This is why the IS PPC line needs to be compared to IS lasers.
The C ER PPC has its place compared to C Lasers, but only the IS HPPC isn't out-performed by a colder and oftentimes lighter IS laser


Why though? I mean Lasers have a more general use owed to their lighter tonnage. The SNPPC I would argue is directly competitive to ER Med Lasers, and it's only saving grace is that it's front-loaded damage, but otherwise you can muster better alpha with 6 ERMLs. The LPL straight up has better sustain and dps with shorter range than their standard PPCs, this put the two at different roles. Now admittedly, the issue is that the IS PPC rigs generally don't present that much incentive to deviate from the standard laserboats because they are just hot-garbage and the ones that could do them well are only those heavily quirked for it and or heavy -- such as 3x HPPC awesome.

I'd rather have the weapon more useful at most selection of IS mechs, than the select quirked few. That is what PGI can't seem to get, that they use Quirks for balance first than for flavor.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 February 2021 - 05:51 AM.


#389 xAndy199

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:08 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 24 February 2021 - 05:50 AM, said:


Why though? I mean Lasers have a more general use owed to their lighter tonnage. The SNPPC I would argue is directly competitive to ER Med Lasers, and it's only saving grace is that it's front-loaded damage, but otherwise you can muster better alpha with 6 ERMLs. The LPL straight up has better sustain and dps with shorter range than their standard PPCs, this put the two at different roles. Now admittedly, the issue is that the IS PPC rigs generally don't present that much incentive to deviate from the standard laserboats because they are just hot-garbage and the ones that could do them well are only those heavily quirked for it and or heavy -- such as 3x HPPC awesome.

I'd rather have the weapon more useful at most selection of IS mechs, than the select quirked few. That is what PGI can't seem to get, that they use Quirks for balance first than for flavor.

Two IS Med Lasers will match a Snub PPC in damage, practical rate of fire, and range for 1/3 of the weight and ~1/2 heat
IS LPL has more range and less heat only for weighing 1 ton extra
IS Large is almost 1-1 in performance, is colder, and is 1 ton lighter
at Med Laser ranges, instant damage delivery is not necessary to get most of the damage on 1 component
Conclusion: SNPPC is literally useless

A Light PPC is an ER med laser at 1.5x range, costing you a whopping 3x weight
Recommendation: shave 2 tons elsewhere and get a Large Laser

Standard IS PPC - just get an LPL or a (ER) Large Laser
Conclusion: literally why

IS ER PPC - 1.5x heat over ER Large Laser for instant pinpoint damage, at ranges where it would only be an improvement on Polar Highlands and Alpine Peaks
Conclusion: overly niched

IS HPPC - roughly equivalent to 2 IS Large Lasers in all parameters, suffering the min. range thing in exchange for saving a hardpoint
Conclusion: good choice for hardpoint-strapped chassis

The bottom line: give a very minor buff to the Standard PPC, and a massive buff to the SNPPC and LPPC

Edited by xAndy199, 24 February 2021 - 06:09 AM.


#390 KursedVixen

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:09 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 24 February 2021 - 05:50 AM, said:


Too good, all things considering. It's only balancing grace is immense heat, that which generally you have to invest a good amount of heatsink for sustained that could have been put somewhere else. Had they have a direct damage output cap, the CERPPC could find better synergy with the rest of Clan weapons.





Why though? I mean Lasers have a more general use owed to their lighter tonnage. The SNPPC I would argue is directly competitive to ER Med Lasers, and it's only saving grace is that it's front-loaded damage, but otherwise you can muster better alpha with 6 ERMLs. The LPL straight up has better sustain and dps with shorter range than their standard PPCs, this put the two at different roles. Now admittedly, the issue is that the IS PPC rigs generally don't present that much incentive to deviate from the standard laserboats because they are just hot-garbage and the ones that could do them well are only those heavily quirked for it and or heavy -- such as 3x HPPC awesome.

I'd rather have the weapon more useful at most selection of IS mechs, than the select quirked few. That is what PGI can't seem to get, that they use Quirks for balance first than for flavor.
either leave the CERPPC as it is or give it more pinpoint damage... and clan lasers need a slight reduction to their duration not something huge but just a small bit.... Clan small pulse needs it's damaged upped to say 4.5 at the least maybe a little less but it's really underpreforming....

#391 The6thMessenger

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:18 AM

View PostxAndy199, on 24 February 2021 - 06:08 AM, said:

Two IS Med Lasers will match a Snub PPC in damage, practical rate of fire, and range for 1/3 of the weight and ~1/2 heat
IS LPL has more range and less heat only for weighing 1 ton extra
IS Large is almost 1-1 in performance, is colder, and is 1 ton lighter
at Med Laser ranges, instant damage delivery is not get most of the damage on 1 component
Conclusion: SNPPC is literally useless


Not necessarily. It's frontloaded damage allows it to peek better, and gives it good synergy with ACs like LB20X. Now the problem however is that it only becomes useful at heavier mechs. The lighter mechs only have little incentive to break away their otherwise more accessible 6x ERML poke.

View PostxAndy199, on 24 February 2021 - 06:08 AM, said:

A Light PPC is an ER med laser at 1.5x range, costing you a whopping 3x weight
Recommendation: shave 2 tons elsewhere and get a Large Laser


Yep, LPPC is anemic as hell. It has the issue of being the lightest PPCs, so it inevitably loses on heavier PPCs, so it's role should deviate from the standard long-range poke.

View PostxAndy199, on 24 February 2021 - 06:08 AM, said:

Standard IS PPC - just get an LPL or a (ER) Large Laser
Conclusion: literally why


Also true. Although the main problem is heat, IS PPC is hot garbage, in fact the entire lineup is mostly hot garbage, the HPPC is only relevant due to most damage of 30 with it's GH Limit, meanwhile SNPPC has it's tonnage advantage and mechanical advantage of lack of minimum range, and ERPPC's mechanical advantage of long range and faster velocity, though still hot garbage.

View PostxAndy199, on 24 February 2021 - 06:08 AM, said:

IS ER PPC - 1.5x heat over ER Large Laser for instant pinpoint damage, at ranges where it would only be an improvement on Polar Highlands and Alpine Peaks
Conclusion: overly niched


Sure, kind of the point though. Not every weapon needs to work on every map, else what's the point of different weapons?

View PostxAndy199, on 24 February 2021 - 06:08 AM, said:

IS HPPC - roughly equivalent to 2 IS Large Lasers in all parameters, suffering the min. range thing in exchange for saving a hardpoint
Conclusion: good choice for hardpoint-strapped chassis


IS Lasers actually can mount up to 3 before GH, that is 27 poke damage for 21 heat which is 1.2857 damage/heat, versus 30 damage and 29 heat which is 1.03448 damage/heat. Even ERLLs only hit 25.5 heat which is at 1.0588 damage/heat. So yeah, HPPC is also hot garbage.

View PostxAndy199, on 24 February 2021 - 06:08 AM, said:

The bottom line: give a very minor buff to the Standard PPC, and a massive buff to the SNPPC and LPPC


Minor? The standard PPC needs good amount of buffs to make it relevant.

View PostKursedVixen, on 24 February 2021 - 06:09 AM, said:

either leave the CERPPC as it is or give it more pinpoint damage... and clan lasers need a slight reduction to their duration not something huge but just a small bit.... Clan small pulse needs it's damaged upped to say 4.5 at the least maybe a little less but it's really underpreforming....


What? CERPPC if anything needs to be weaker, or IS PPCs needs to get stronger.

Here's my take on it:

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 18 February 2021 - 07:15 PM, said:

Spoiler


Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 March 2021 - 11:22 PM.


#392 DeadWeight18

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:26 AM

A lot of valid feedback in this thread. I would advocate to not push up damage values of weapon but rather work on make them differentiating, like:
  • Light Gauss Rifle: not charging mechanism
  • Subnose PCC: splash after optimal range
  • PPC: splash in minimum range
  • SSRM: dumpfire and follow haircross
  • Light PPC: decoupled from gaus rifles / perhaps not min range
  • Small Pulse Lasers: more like Heavy machine guns
Added:
  • RAC5: should fire much slower but bigger shells same, DPS slower jam-chance build-up
  • Clan AC: should fire single shot
In addition we can play with ammo values, velocities, ranges and cooldowns of weapons to bring them into a meaningful role.

Edited by DeadWeight18, 24 February 2021 - 06:57 AM.


#393 KursedVixen

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:43 AM

View PostDeadWeight18, on 24 February 2021 - 06:26 AM, said:

A lot of valid feedback in this thread. I would advocate to not push up damage values of weapon but rather work on make them differentiating, like:
  • Light Gauss Rifle: not charging mechanism
  • Subnose PCC: splash after optimal range
  • PPC: splash in minimum range
  • SSRM: dumpfire and follow haircross
  • Light PPC: decoupled from gaus rifles
  • Small Pulse Lasers: more like Heavy machine guns
In addition we can play with ammo values, velocities, ranges and cooldowns of weapons to bring them into a meaningful role.


what about heavy lasers? could we not make them in the same ghost heat catagory as normal lasers? though with a smaller number than normal for ghost heat? except large heavy that'd be absurd to have ghost heat on one large heavy laser.

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 February 2021 - 06:44 AM.


#394 xAndy199

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:43 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 24 February 2021 - 06:18 AM, said:

Not necessarily. It's frontloaded damage allows it to peek better, and gives it good synergy with ACs like LB20X. Now the problem however is that it only becomes useful at heavier mechs. The lighter mechs only have little incentive to break away their otherwise more accessible 6x ERML poke.

For mechs that can handle the weight and heat, acceleration, deceleration and speed are too low for IS standard laser duration to be a problem "horizontally poptarting" or trying to run past an adversary.
For lighter and faster mechs, the high weight makes every other energy weapon a better choice.

Quote

Yep, LPPC is anemic as hell. It has the issue of being the lightest PPCs, so it inevitably loses on heavier PPCs, so it's role should deviate from the standard long-range poke.

I'd see it fixed by reducing the weight and slot size and making it a range-focused alternative to the IS MPL. As I've said previously, I'd touch the weight of the SNPPC as well (and the slot count of the PPC), and the LPPC and SNPPC are used on so few stock builds that changing them shouldn't be an arduous task. As for custom builds, everyone will have to reevaluate theirs after any more substantial update anyway.

Quote

Sure, kind of the point though. Not every weapon needs to work on every map, else what's the point of different weapons?

Being very specialized is not a bad state to be in by itself, it's just something to keep in mind when balancing other things. Balance is a relativistic business.

Quote

IS Lasers actually can mount up to 3 before GH, that is 27 poke damage for 21 heat which is 1.2857 damage/heat, versus 30 damage and 29 heat which is 1.03448 damage/heat. Even ERLLs only hit 25.5 heat which is at 1.0588 damage/heat. So yeah, HPPC is also hot garbage.

The HPPC sort of makes sense if you have 2x HPPC and 2x whatever backup on your Catapult K2, but that's primarily motivated by wanting to "wear BattleTech colors" and use any form of PPC on any kind of IS chassis effectively. A twin-autocannon K2 still performs far better, but I'm not as critical of the HPPC because it's the one that can be used.

Quote

Minor? The standard PPC needs good amount of buffs to make it relevant.

Buff the standard PPC significantly and you'll have to buff the HPPC.

I'd find the PPC capacitor to be an interesting addition, though.
1 ton, 1 slot, converts its adjacent PPC to a Capacitor PPC, adding 5 damage in exchange for charging up like a Gauss Rifle.
A Cap-HPPC would be ridiculous - 20 FLPPD damage at AC/10 ranges.

Edited by xAndy199, 24 February 2021 - 06:45 AM.


#395 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:47 AM

View PostKursedVixen, on 24 February 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

what about heavy lasers? could we not make them in the same ghost heat catagory as normal lasers? though with a smaller number than normal for ghost heat? except large heavy that'd be absurd to have ghost heat on one large heavy laser.

Dude, that's exactly how it's already done. Check https://mwo.smurfy-n...eapon_heatscale if you don't believe me. I'm seriously starting to question that you have a clue what you are talking about.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 24 February 2021 - 06:55 AM.


#396 The6thMessenger

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:56 AM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 24 February 2021 - 06:47 AM, said:

Dude, that's exactly how it's already done. Check https://mwo.smurfy-n...eapon_heatscale if you don't believe me. I'm seriously starting to question that you have a clue about what you are talking.


I think, he meant he doesn't want HLL linked with ERLL, but the HLL will have even lower GH limit. But that's broken. We don't need more damage padding the Clan Laser vomit, it's already hot with 6x ERML + 2x HLL.

View PostxAndy199, on 24 February 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

I'd see it fixed by reducing the weight and slot size and making it a range-focused alternative to the IS MPL. As I've said previously, I'd touch the weight of the SNPPC as well (and the slot count of the PPC), and the LPPC and SNPPC are used on so few stock builds that changing them shouldn't be an arduous task. As for custom builds, everyone will have to reevaluate theirs after any more substantial update anyway.


Weight isn't really negotiable though, because it has something to do with the builds.

The slots is already a stretch, but that is because PGI cannot (not necessarily refuse) to code crit-splitting just as ammo-switching, when the LB20X could be put in the arms in lore, such as the King-Crab KGC-005 variant.

View PostxAndy199, on 24 February 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

Buff the standard PPC significantly and you'll have to buff the HPPC.


Why though? The HPPC can still get away with it with MORE alpha.

#397 KursedVixen

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 07:10 AM

The PPC capacitor also adds heat for as long as it holds a charge btw so they'd probably include that or just a general PPC heat increase. i woudl recommend only allowing it to be attached to the snub or normal ppc though.

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 February 2021 - 07:17 AM.


#398 Duke Falcon

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:04 AM

I not understand the resistance about render the C ER-PPC what it should be.
https://www.sarna.ne...rojector_Cannon
It does 15 damage, read and see. No pinpoint-splashy-smashy-fluffy-madness and such. To make it clear the whole splash damage is ****. ALL PPC variations do splash damage or none. No exception, no damage smurfing because IS-love. PPCs are like thunderbolts: Hit, create enormous pinpoint damage because of impact energy and generated heat BUT also have splash effect as such heat-impulse literally generate small explosion cover larger surface area of the target. If PPC works in BattleTech as it could be in RL.
If not, why the debate? Do whatever and mage MGs do 2000 damage because it is all theory bends by the will of people not necessary need consistency. I understand why IS players want weaker PPCs, IS weapons are inferior basicly, downgraded and obsolate while clan-tech shines as new. If want balance it not comes with the ****ing of damage outputs of the weapons. Rise price, set up availability prerequisites or such. But rethink the ER-PPC on both sides is a true necessity. Remember: IS 10 while Clan 15 damage + splash for both or none.
Or want to insist that cPPCs may also explode on hit like Gauss (what a foolishment)? Because theoretically both could act like that if got hit just prior the firing, when their coils are charged, ready to fire. Otherwise none of them explodes. Why should? Magnetic weapons not explode! Noone got his or her house exploded by funny play with magnetic acceleration, come on!
But as another topic, for IS-love: Arrow IV & Thunderbolt. If you got them you would never complain against restored ER-PPC ever again. Hill-humpers would run to refit their mechs with those for sure. Be those the Xmas present for ISers then let the community calm and play as it should be...
Thanks.
...again...

#399 Belorion

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:51 AM

Light PPCs and light Gauss need to have the ghost heat removed from them. Right now they are not really viable weapons, but if you remove the ghost heat (or at least scale it differently) then suddenly they make a lot more sense.

#400 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 24 February 2021 - 10:41 AM

this is so pointless... Posted Image this nonsense is cluttering the discussion. Just go with the Gulag suggestions for this first pass and see how it goes from there. These people at least know what they are talking about and don't bring lore aspects into the argument...





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