107 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

MookieDog, on 25 February 2021 - 08:19 AM, said:

What? You mean this at 19:00

Well I made this thread before this video was created so I didn't realize that there were other sources of feedback. I don't have a crystal ball.

MookieDog, on 25 February 2021 - 08:19 AM, said:

Skin toughness is fine. Looks like you didnt get your way or what you want so what?? Next mech pack is going to be clan, so you can get your super Direwolf-K uber death machine the next pass. Until then...

Ok weird observation.. for someone who has a Kurita tag you are poo pooing the Dragon? Just throwing that out there.

It's not even MY way. I don't care for the Thunderbolt, but I see what it brings to the table so I'm not complaining about it. The Dragon doesn't bring anything to the table. Why would you request a mech without something unique about it?

I wouldn't have even made this thread if it was the MASC Dragon.

Given that we only have a limited amount of time to add variants, I would just prefer to get actually interesting things, rather than something that ONLY serves to stroke nostalgia. We have seen that in the past, and they just don't sell well despite a bunch of people asking for them because then they come out and they suck.

I'll show my DCMS pride by lobbying hard for the Sunder when its time to vote for a new chassis. Dragons? We already have Dragons with energy and missile hardpoints.

In any case, I bought it anyway just because its a good value and I support the direction, I'm just hoping for better choices in the future.

[Thilas]

I went through the Variants wishlist thread, and most people in there who were suggesting a Grand Dragon variant were asking for hard point inflation in the arms (up to 2), Only one person recommended 4E, 2M.

I think for most people, it was a variant of the Dragon that they've wanted for some time. Personally, I mentioned the 5K and 7K, but I was expecting a follow-through with the PGI hard point inflation.

That being said, it's very likely this thing is going to end up being a very heavily quirked PPC ridge peeking sniper given the limited hard points and historical Dragon quirking. I'm also wondering if it's going to be a test for new quirks.

[Gas Guzzler]

Thilas, on 25 February 2021 - 09:15 PM, said:

That being said, it's very likely this thing is going to end up being a very heavily quirked PPC ridge peeking sniper given the limited hard points and historical Dragon quirking. I'm also wondering if it's going to be a test for new quirks.

Most definitely. PPC family heat gen/velocity/cooldown trifecta would be phenomenal

[FupDup]

PPC velocity 20% (what most IS mechs get), energy heat 10% (or higher), energy cooldown 20% (or higher). Actually not impossible because all of the other Dragons have equal or stronger weapon quirks than that.

[Heavy Money]

Do we need yet another PPC quirked heavy?
I don't mind them being on there, but please give us some different family quirks as well. Pigeon holing it into just PPCs isn't really a selling point to me. Much more interested in Large Laser or Large Pulse Laser quirks. Or it can just be generic energy quirks to avoid pigeon holing.

[FupDup]

Heavy Money, on 26 February 2021 - 02:07 PM, said:

Do we need yet another PPC quirked heavy?
I don't mind them being on there, but please give us some different family quirks as well. Pigeon holing it into just PPCs isn't really a selling point to me. Much more interested in Large Laser or Large Pulse Laser quirks. Or it can just be generic energy quirks to avoid pigeon holing.

PPC family isn't so bad because that gives you ERPPC, SNPPC, LPPC, HPPC, and PPC to choose from. The only issue is that PGI has not done enough to make them each distinct on their own.

As for LL/LPL specific quirks, you're not going to get either of those on this mech because weapon quirks aren't based on random loadouts that somebody uses, because if we did that then every mech would have quirks for every single possible weapon that could be mounted on it. They're instead based on what the mech originally carries in its stock build.

A more realistic hope is for STD laser or generic laser quirks because the mech does carry 3 ML in the stock build (and some Dragon variants already have laser duration so there's a precedent). But if we really want this mech to be good with lasers we need the Binary Laser Cannon to be added to the game so that IS lasers aren't as dependent on high hardpoint quantities to reach good damage (also the IS LL is kinda underwhelming these days, prolly could use a little nudge).

[Heavy Money]

FupDup, on 26 February 2021 - 02:44 PM, said:

As for LL/LPL specific quirks, you're not going to get either of those on this mech because weapon quirks aren't based on random loadouts that somebody uses, because if we did that then every mech would have quirks for every single possible weapon that could be mounted on it. They're instead based on what the mech originally carries in its stock build.

You're correct that this is how its been done so far, but that doesn't mean they have to stick to it. Its a new phase of the game. They can give it whatever quirks increase its appeal and usefulness.

[TheArisen]

Idk, after seeing people continue to vote for terrible mechs like the Hollander, I think people just have a strange attraction to bad mechs.

[FupDup]

Heavy Money, on 26 February 2021 - 02:59 PM, said:

You're correct that this is how its been done so far, but that doesn't mean they have to stick to it. Its a new phase of the game. They can give it whatever quirks increase its appeal and usefulness.

They can do it a different way, but how do they decide what mech gets what quirks then? If there's no consistent, objective criteria then there's as much reason to give Atlases Narc quirks or the Commando LRM quirks as there is to give the DRG-1G LPL quirks. It wouldn't be overpowered in any way, but it would be weird and kinda arbitrary. How do they decide?

Basing it off of stock loadout isn't any issue so long as they use either use family quirks (i.e. STD laser quirks instead of ML-specific quirks) or generic quirks (i.e. energy heat).

And of course they need to make sure the quirks are of sufficient magnitude to make a gameplay difference. This is the real issue. Gotta go big.

[Heavy Money]

FupDup, on 26 February 2021 - 03:07 PM, said:

They can do it a different way, but how do they decide what mech gets what quirks then? If there's no consistent, objective criteria then there's as much reason to give Atlases Narc quirks or the Commando LRM quirks as there is to give the DRG-1G LPL quirks. It wouldn't be overpowered in any way, but it would be weird and kinda arbitrary. How do they decide?

Basing it off of stock loadout isn't any issue so long as they use either use family quirks (i.e. STD laser quirks instead of ML-specific quirks) or generic quirks (i.e. energy heat).

And of course they need to make sure the quirks are of sufficient magnitude to make a gameplay difference. This is the real issue. Gotta go big.

Those aren't great comparisons. The Dragon has small number of hardpoints, so it needs to run a few big guns. The options are PPC family and Large Laser family. So why not support both?

The problem with basing off stock loadouts is that they are often terrible. Most stock loadouts out there are medley loadouts, which are bad. So we get a bunch of quirks that aren't good enough to run a medley loadouts, and most of which don't apply to any boating loadout. This is a big part of why most mechs, especially older IS ones, aren't good.

I can certainly see a place for a chassis having multiple variants with each quirked towards a different specific weapon, and that's fine. But in general, it'd be good to zoom quirks out a level of specialization. The Grand Dragon is already specailized enough due to its limited hardpoints, so keep the quirks general. If it had much more flexible hardpoints, then the quirks could be more specialized.

The point is for the end result to be worth using and have a decent amount of variation available in its loadouts. As this dragon is already so restricted, it is only going to achieve loadout variation if that's supported by the quirks. Reducing our options based on prior precedent is just making up arbitrary rules that makes it harder to make the mech fun.

Edited by Heavy Money, 26 February 2021 - 03:47 PM.

[FupDup]

Heavy Money, on 26 February 2021 - 03:45 PM, said:

Those aren't great comparisons. The Dragon has small number of hardpoints, so it needs to run a few big guns. The options are PPC family and Large Laser family. So why not support both?

The problem with basing off stock loadouts is that they are often terrible. Most stock loadouts out there are medley loadouts, which are bad. So we get a bunch of quirks that aren't good enough to run a medley loadouts, and most of which don't apply to any boating loadout. This is a big part of why most mechs, especially older IS ones, aren't good.

I can certainly see a place for a chassis having multiple variants with each quirked towards a different specific weapon, and that's fine. But in general, it'd be good to zoom quirks out a level of specialization. The Grand Dragon is already specailized enough due to its limited hardpoints, so keep the quirks general. If it had much more flexible hardpoints, then the quirks could be more specialized.

The point is for the end result to be worth using and have a decent amount of variation available in its loadouts. As this dragon is already so restricted, it is only going to achieve loadout variation if that's supported by the quirks. Reducing our options based on prior precedent is just making up arbitrary rules that makes it harder to make the mech fun.

I think a combination of generic and/or family quirks can accomplish decent variation on its own. I'm definitely no fan of quirks that are specific to only one single gun and I don't advocate for them (which is another reason why I object to specific LL/LPL quirks). The "family" approach is a good middle ground, provided that there is sufficient variety within that family (IS PPCs need more differentiation big time).

The DRG-1G's issues are just lack of technology (i.e. Binary Laser Cannon for more laser punch, Compact Gyro/Engine to fit big MRM in the CT) and lack of hardpoints (which inherently limit what guns make sense for it regardless of quirks). Quirks can make it stronger but at the end of the day there's only so many things you can do with 4 energy hardpoints on a 60-ton heavy mech.

[Gas Guzzler]

Heavy Money, on 26 February 2021 - 02:07 PM, said:

Do we need yet another PPC quirked heavy?
I don't mind them being on there, but please give us some different family quirks as well. Pigeon holing it into just PPCs isn't really a selling point to me. Much more interested in Large Laser or Large Pulse Laser quirks. Or it can just be generic energy quirks to avoid pigeon holing.

Well that's not going to happen on this Dragon because it doesn't come with Large class lasers, best you can hope for is laser duration

[Heavy Money]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 February 2021 - 06:47 PM, said:

Well that's not going to happen on this Dragon because it doesn't come with Large class lasers, best you can hope for is laser duration

See previous post. This is a totally arbitrary restriction. There's not some iron law of the universe that says it can only have quirks related to the stock loadout. They can make the quirks whatever they want, so they should make them appealing.

[FupDup]

I mean, let's say that it did get IS LL HSL +1 for some reason.

That's still a poopy loadout. 2 HPPC + 2 ML actually does a little bit more damage and has most of it being PPFLD. The IS LL feels pretty weak these days IMO.

[Heavy Money]

FupDup, on 26 February 2021 - 07:10 PM, said:

I mean, let's say that it did get IS LL HSL +1 for some reason.

That's still a poopy loadout. 2 HPPC + 2 ML actually does a little bit more damage and has most of it being PPFLD. The IS LL feels pretty weak these days IMO.

With enough energy/laser cooldown and/or heat it could be fine. It can be as effective as they want it to be. So can any other potential weapon combination.
But yes, LLs aren't the greatest.

[TheArisen]

Heavy Money, on 26 February 2021 - 07:07 PM, said:

See previous post. This is a totally arbitrary restriction. There's not some iron law of the universe that says it can only have quirks related to the stock loadout. They can make the quirks whatever they want, so they should make them appealing.

Once upon a time there was a push by lore purists for quirks to resemble the stock loadout and so PGI went with it after a bit. I like lore actually but I agree that they need to really re-think the way they do quirks.

Edited by TheArisen, 26 February 2021 - 08:21 PM.

[Heavy Money]

TheArisen, on 26 February 2021 - 08:20 PM, said:

Once upon a time there was a push by lore purists for quirks to resemble the stock loadout and so PGI went with it after a bit. I like lore actually but I agree that they need to really re-think the way they do quirks.

I wouldn't have any complaints about having quirks be based around the stock loadout if they were actually worth using. But most mechs have terrible stock loadouts, and then mediocre quirks that wouldn't be enough even on a good loadouts, let alone 4 different mixed weapons including Streak 2's and a heat rating of 1.01

At this point, we just need to be demanding that the devs make things good enough to be fun, and have some variety. And to do it without letting past precedent or policy get in the way.

Edited by Heavy Money, 26 February 2021 - 08:51 PM.

[TheArisen]

Heavy Money, on 26 February 2021 - 08:49 PM, said:

I wouldn't have any complaints about having quirks be based around the stock loadout if they were actually worth using. But most mechs have terrible stock loadouts, and then mediocre quirks that wouldn't be enough even on a good loadouts, let alone 4 different mixed weapons including Streak 2's and a heat rating of 1.01

At this point, we just need to be demanding that the devs make things good enough to be fun, and have some variety. And to do it without letting past precedent or policy get in the way.

100%

[Requiemking]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 February 2021 - 06:47 PM, said:

Well that's not going to happen on this Dragon because it doesn't come with Large class lasers, best you can hope for is laser duration

Assuming it comes with quirks in the first place which, thanks to it being a Dragon variant, is not exactly likely to happen.

[FupDup]

Requiemking, on 03 March 2021 - 11:54 AM, said:

Assuming it comes with quirks in the first place which, thanks to it being a Dragon variant, is not exactly likely to happen.

All Dragons have pretty large quirks for both durability and firepower. They're not enough to make the chassis truly "good," but they look pretty nice on paper at least.