102 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 01 March 2021 - 03:33 AM, said:

It's a matter of different environments. I mean yeah, the common point-and-click adventure elite might not like the CERML...

The CERML is pretty darn good for point-and-click adventure games (at least, when used in large numbers and combined with large-class lasers), though I'm not exactly elite. Laser vomit Hellbringer is still easymode.

Edited by FupDup, 01 March 2021 - 01:22 PM.

[D A T A]

RickySpanish, on 01 March 2021 - 08:42 AM, said:

Your comments are always interesting my man, I have to know: In your opinion, what are the most effective 'Mechs right now? Say, top 5?

It is not about opinions, its about facts, days and days of experience and thousands of victories.
The top players in the world (JGx) understand the flaws in the game balance and use them to their advantage. Top players want to win, and in order to win they use only what is best.
So, best stuff atm is:
4CERPPC boats (mad cat mkII, warhammer IIC, warhawk)
IS ERLL boats (annihilator 1p, stalker 5s, battlemaster 1g or 1s) (faction paly only)
IS ac10-ac5-uac10-uac10 boats (fafnirs, annihilators, slepnirs)
Clan uac5+uac10 combos or uac10+cerppc combos (mad cat B, deathstrike, blood asp)
ATM boat Veagle
CERPPC poptart Veagle
Every sort of quick IS MPL boat (vulcan, phoenix hawk, urban k9, wolfhound, panther, assassin)
IS streak boat ( BJ2, assassin 23, cyclops)
IS LRM boat (stalker 3h or fafnir or awesome)
IS SRM on fast mechs (wolverine 7k, assassins)


so, for example, World Championship rules, that we won, (8 players 480 tons max 3 per weight class) was like
Madcat 4cerppc
warhawk 4cerppc
warhammerIIC 4cerppc
summoner 2cerppc
vulcan 5medpulse
phoenix 6medpulse
assassin 4medpulse+2srm2
commando srm+flamers


Faction play mid range decks are like

Clan
90+90+55+20
where the 55 is an atm veagle or cerppc veagle and the 2 90 tonners are deathstrikes uac10 cerppc or just uac5+uac10 mad cat and similar basps)

IS
100+100 (either fafnir 2uac10+2uac5 or annihilator 1p with 5 erll and standard heatsink turbospam)
and then some lights with ml or mpl like vulcan, locust with 20% cooldown, wolfhound mpl boat, urbanmech and such stuff

even 3 black knights 6b with 3ll+6erml xl350 20dhs+ 1 vulcan can work
even some combos with ac2 may work, like 2 maulers and 2 vulcans with MPL

Long range
clan uses viragos 4 cerll or warhammers IIC with torso mounts 4cerppcs, IS uses battlemasters and stalkers with ERLL.

QUICK PLAY
4 men premade = 4 vulcans xl280 16dhs 2jjs 5mpl
vulcan medpulse boat is by far the strongest silly OP ******** mech in the game right now

This is current meta, all the rest is just pugs talking ****

JGx DATA, current World Campion with JGx, current Solaris 1v1 and 2v2 champion, player with the most 1st places ever in the whole history of Solaris, winner of every solaris season in which i decided to participate

Edited by D A T A, 01 March 2021 - 01:44 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 05:32 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong.
IS laser vomit is **** too. (Only exception is black knight with 10% heat quirk xl350 3ll+6erml tc1 20 dhs, but even then, just barely decent compared to current meta)
We are not talking about top 10 players in the world. We are talking about every division A team MRBC or MOR since 2017. Dozens of players.

That's still the top.

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 05:32 AM, said:

And no, it is not about environments, even QP or FP laser vomits are garbage trash.
There is no place for clan ermed based builds. And al the discussions focused on damage per ton are just blind and narrow, there are a lot more other variables.

Oh I agree, there's a bunch of other stuffs needed, like the cooldown, heat, duration.

I play the game in QP, and it still works, not the best but it works. I'm still doing good damage output on my clan laser builds, my purifier still works, my dakka-vomit works, gauss-vomit is okay

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 01:30 PM, said:

It is not about opinions, its about facts, days and days of experience and thousands of victories.
The top players in the world (JGx) understand the flaws in the game balance and use them to their advantage. Top players want to win, and in order to win they use only what is best.

Like I said, difference of environment. And if I may give hot take:

Spoiler

I honestly question the efficacy of balancing the game to the top at all TBH, I mean you'll find all of the loopholes that violate the intent of the balancing effort, like a lawyer contorting the law violates the spirit despite being technically right. You want to win right? There you go.

The thing with the Pug QP is that you can get away with a lot more from there, than what would you do when around hungry-hungry point-and-click elites.

It's a place where they do stupid builds and still win stupid prizes, so an idiotic build can still have a reprieve by having decent direct fire that can work, if not the best. The CERML for all of its flaws, it's in my experience the most forgiving weapon that you can slap on your build, it just goes with everything.

I'd rather have an LRM teammate with an array of CERMLs, rather than just a complete LRM boat.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 01 March 2021 - 03:11 PM.

[FupDup]

Like, if the CERML is underpowered, then there are quite a few weapons that are way more underpowered than it that should be attended to first.

[Heavy Money]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 01:30 PM, said:

It is not about opinions, its about facts, days and days of experience and thousands of victories.
The top players in the world (JGx) understand the flaws in the game balance and use them to their advantage. Top players want to win, and in order to win they use only what is best.
So, best stuff atm is:
4CERPPC boats (mad cat mkII, warhammer IIC, warhawk)
IS ERLL boats (annihilator 1p, stalker 5s, battlemaster 1g or 1s) (faction paly only)
IS ac10-ac5-uac10-uac10 boats (fafnirs, annihilators, slepnirs)
Clan uac5+uac10 combos or uac10+cerppc combos (mad cat B, deathstrike, blood asp)
ATM boat Veagle
CERPPC poptart Veagle
Every sort of quick IS MPL boat (vulcan, phoenix hawk, urban k9, wolfhound, panther, assassin)
IS streak boat ( BJ2, assassin 23, cyclops)
IS LRM boat (stalker 3h or fafnir or awesome)
IS SRM on fast mechs (wolverine 7k, assassins)


so, for example, World Championship rules, that we won, (8 players 480 tons max 3 per weight class) was like
Madcat 4cerppc
warhawk 4cerppc
warhammerIIC 4cerppc
summoner 2cerppc
vulcan 5medpulse
phoenix 6medpulse
assassin 4medpulse+2srm2
commando srm+flamers


Faction play mid range decks are like

Clan
90+90+55+20
where the 55 is an atm veagle or cerppc veagle and the 2 90 tonners are deathstrikes uac10 cerppc or just uac5+uac10 mad cat and similar basps)

IS
100+100 (either fafnir 2uac10+2uac5 or annihilator 1p with 5 erll and standard heatsink turbospam)
and then some lights with ml or mpl like vulcan, locust with 20% cooldown, wolfhound mpl boat, urbanmech and such stuff

even 3 black knights 6b with 3ll+6erml xl350 20dhs+ 1 vulcan can work
even some combos with ac2 may work, like 2 maulers and 2 vulcans with MPL

Long range
clan uses viragos 4 cerll or warhammers IIC with torso mounts 4cerppcs, IS uses battlemasters and stalkers with ERLL.

QUICK PLAY
4 men premade = 4 vulcans xl280 16dhs 2jjs 5mpl
vulcan medpulse boat is by far the strongest silly OP ******** mech in the game right now

This is current meta, all the rest is just pugs talking ****

JGx DATA, current World Campion with JGx, current Solaris 1v1 and 2v2 champion, player with the most 1st places ever in the whole history of Solaris, winner of every solaris season in which i decided to participate

Interesting. Why are IS ERLL boats up there, but not clan? Is it just ghost heat group size?
Why IS LRMS, but not Clan? Are people running lots of AMS, or are there other factors?

Do you think its bad that ERPPCs are so common? Should they be nerfed, or should other things be buffed?

[The6thMessenger]

Heavy Money, on 01 March 2021 - 03:18 PM, said:

Interesting. Why are IS ERLL boats up there, but not clan? Is it just ghost heat group size?
Why IS LRMS, but not Clan? Are people running lots of AMS, or are there other factors?

Do you think its bad that ERPPCs are so common? Should they be nerfed, or should other things be buffed?

It's the range. 4x ERLL Hellbringer is a long-range menace in FP. It could pretty much molest you from base to gate at boreal vault that it's hard to open the gates.

[Heavy Money]

The6thMessenger, on 01 March 2021 - 03:25 PM, said:

It's the range. 4x ERLL Hellbringer is a long-range menace in FP. It could pretty much molest you from base to gate at boreal vault that it's hard to open the gates.

Right, but Clan has the superior range on ERLL. So why IS ERLL boats but not clan?

[D A T A]

Heavy Money, on 01 March 2021 - 03:18 PM, said:

Interesting. Why are IS ERLL boats up there, but not clan? Is it just ghost heat group size?
Why IS LRMS, but not Clan? Are people running lots of AMS, or are there other factors?

Do you think its bad that ERPPCs are so common? Should they be nerfed, or should other things be buffed?

clan erll boats are garbage, the only decent one (barely decent) is the virago 4cerll
in general, clan mechs have bad armor compared to IS counterparts and overall clan ERLL suck big time: duration too long, heat too high, cooldown too slow, ghost heat too punitive: too many downsides that are not compensated by that small range advantage.
The damage andvantage of clan erll is just a fake: with clans you will still shoot 2+2 max, while with IS you shoot 3+3, and you burn faster, recycle faster.
Try a stalker 5s with STD 300 6ERLL 20dhs tc1: that mech shits all over every clan ranged mech.
If you want more range just drop some stuff here and there, even a laser, and go TCOMP 8.
10%range IS mechs with high tcomp easily get above 900 meters range, which is more than enough

These things extend to dakka boats as well: IS dakka boats s**t all over clan dakka boats: IS mechs have more armor, less jam chance, faster unjam time, faster cooldown in the skill tree, better heat nodes in skill tree, less projectile count (means more accurate shots) better quirks on heat and so on.


IS lrms have more quirks and better stats and travel in packs. Since they travel in packs rather than in streams they spend way way less time into the AMS bubble, means that more LRMS are able to just fly through ams shields. The clan lrm weight advantage means nothing because IS lrm boats can use 4lrm20 or 4lrm15 just fine, and there are no clan mechs who can bring 6-7 LRM 20 to compensate all the clan lrms disadvantages.


As for my suggestions, i strongly support the gulag project (see navid A1 post in the command chair weapon balance pass post), as i had a big part in tuning those values.
Clan has ERPPC not because cerppc OP, but because it is the only thing where clan beats IS, Inner Sphere beats clan in every other aspect, role and playstyle.
We got to a point where good stuff works only because its the only stuff that feels not broken.
Its time to buff broken things, not to break functioning things.
The only exception is IS lrms: an aimbot based weapon with zero aiming requirement can not be so strong

Edited by D A T A, 01 March 2021 - 04:00 PM.

[Heavy Money]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 03:38 PM, said:

clan erll boats are garbage, the only decent one (barely decent) is the virago 4cerll
in general, clan mechs have bad armor compared to IS counterparts and overall clan ERLL suck big time: duration too long, heat too high, cooldown too slow, ghost heat too punitive: too many downsides that are not compensated by that small range advantage.
The damage andvantage of clan erll is just a fake: with clans you will still shoot 2+2 max, while with IS you shoot 3+3, and you burn faster, recycle faster.
Try a stalker 5s with STD 300 6ERLL 20dhs tc1: that mech shits all over every clan ranged mech.
If you want more range just drop some stuff here and there, even a laser, and go TCOMP 8.
10%range IS mechs with high tcomp easily get above 900 meters range, which is more than enough

These things extend to dakka boats as well: IS dakka boats s**t all over clan dakka boats: IS mechs have more armor, less jam chance, faster unjam time, faster cooldown in the skill tree, better heat nodes in skill tree, less projectile count (means more accurate shots) better quirks on heat and so on.


IS lrms have more quirks and better stats and travel in packs. Since they travel in packs rather than in streams they spend way way less time into the AMS bubble, means that more LRMS are able to just fly through ams shields. The clan lrm weight advantage means nothing because IS lrm boats can use 4lrm20 or 4lrm15 just fine, and there are no clan mechs who can bring 6-7 LRM 20 to compensate all the clan lrms disadvantages.


As for my suggestions, i strongly support the gulag project (see navid A1 post in the command chair weapon balance pass post), as i had a big part in tuning those values.
Clan has ERPPC not because cerppc OP, but because it is the only thing where clan beats IS, Inner Sphere beats clan in every other aspect, role and playstyle.
We got to a point where good stuff works only because its the only stuff that feels not broken.
Its time to buff broken things, not to break functioning things.
The only exception is IS lrms: an aimbot based weapon with zero aiming requirement can not be so strong

It would be a great service to the community to write up meta analysis like this somewhere (in a new thread.) I had picked up on a bunch of this stuff, but didn't know all the details. Discussion of what the current state of things are at the higher levels of play is necessary to inform the further balance discussions that PGI wants.

[Meep Meep]

w0qj, on 01 March 2021 - 08:24 AM, said:

I second Meep Meep's suggestion for the shorter range Heavy Medium Laser, with its 10-damage-for-1-ton and more heat efficient than ER-Medium-Laser.

You need to look at damage drop off too. Heavy meds don't have the same max range but they do similar damage at the optimal range of er meds. So for the typical ~400m standoff your heavy meds are doing roughly the same damage as the er meds. It's also why heavy large are usually better than er large if you can fit them since its alpha is so high its still doing good damage beyond its optimal.

[RickySpanish]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 01:30 PM, said:

*lots of info*

Awesome, cheers!

[D A T A]

Heavy Money, on 01 March 2021 - 04:20 PM, said:

It would be a great service to the community to write up meta analysis like this somewhere (in a new thread.) I had picked up on a bunch of this stuff, but didn't know all the details. Discussion of what the current state of things are at the higher levels of play is necessary to inform the further balance discussions that PGI wants.

i have tried, noone listens: people are usually too arrogant to accept that a champion may know something more than them

[Meep Meep]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 03:38 PM, said:

IS lrms have more quirks and better stats and travel in packs. Since they travel in packs rather than in streams they spend way way less time into the AMS bubble, means that more LRMS are able to just fly through ams shields. The clan lrm weight advantage means nothing because IS lrm boats can use 4lrm20 or 4lrm15 just fine, and there are no clan mechs who can bring 6-7 LRM 20 to compensate all the clan lrms disadvantages.

For organized play sure but in pubs I find that being able to boat lrm on even light clan mechs works out better since you are not tying up heavier mechs from direct fire brawling. For IS to boat a 4x lrm15/20 build and still have a bit of backup energy and enough ammo to matter you are looking at an assault or specialized heavy. But I can boat 3x lrm15 on a light and 4xlrm15 on a medium and still have enough space for backup energy and enough ammo to last the typical match. It's weakness vs massed ams is certainly true but in pubs I don't really see ams used much unless there is an event and lurms are a choice weapon to complete the missions.

[The6thMessenger]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 04:40 PM, said:

i have tried, noone listens: people are usually too arrogant to accept that a champion may know something more than them

Well if it's truly reasonable, the champion doesn't need to use his position as an argument.



If I wanted to get in to the Comp scene, I am sure to come to people like you, I swear.

[Heavy Money]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 04:40 PM, said:

i have tried, noone listens: people are usually too arrogant to accept that a champion may know something more than them

Well, I'm interested at least. I'm not super high ranked in this game, but I've been high ranked in enough other games to understand that things look very different from the top. So I'm not bothered to let skilled people inform my mental model of the game.

I hope we can get the Gulag changes done, or something similar. But they look like just a baseline to me. There's areas they don't cover that I'd like to see discussed. Do you have any thoughts on these:

1) How do we make more lore friendly mixed/medley loadouts more viable without breaking the individual weapons or getting into really complex quirks? (Ex: Running 2 ballistic/2missiles/2 energy instead of 6 of the same weapon, or 2 larger size of the same weapon.)

2) Is there a way to make IS XL engines not be instant death (which is unfun), but also not become an instant default option?

3) Is there a way to make it more viable to run LRMs on non-assaults without breaking them on assaults? (especially on lights/mediums.)

[FupDup]

My biggest question from gulag is about the quirks proposed. Specifically:

1. Why were mechs like the Charger, Black Lanner, Hatamoto-Chi, C-Bill Quickdraws, etc. excluded?

2. Why were some mechs like the Catapult K2 and a Trebuchet variant nerfed? (I don't remember which one it was).


The weapon proposals seem mostly fine but the quirks sheet seemed a lot less...polished shall we say.

Edited by FupDup, 01 March 2021 - 05:18 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Heavy Money, on 01 March 2021 - 05:02 PM, said:

2) Is there a way to make IS XL engines not be instant death (which is unfun), but also not become an instant default option?

I've always put up the idea that instead of death on torso loss it counts like a legging along with the other negatives it gets. That way you still can fight but are more or less rooted to the spot.

[D A T A]

The6thMessenger, on 01 March 2021 - 04:57 PM, said:

Well if it's truly reasonable, the champion doesn't need to use his position as an argument.



If I wanted to get in to the Comp scene, I am sure to come to people like you, I swear.

no way if people like you don't have the abilities to understand stuff, not the will to see things form an objective point of view

[Heavy Money]

FupDup, on 01 March 2021 - 05:06 PM, said:

My biggest question from gulag is about the quirks proposed. Specifically:

1. Why were mechs like the Charger and Black Lanner excluded?

2. Why were some mechs like the Catapult K2 and a Trebuchet variant nerfed? (I don't remember which one it was).


The weapon proposals seem mostly fine but the quirks sheet seemed a lot less...polished shall we say.

I'll second that. The quirk proposal seemed to make a lot of IS mechs that are already pretty weak even weaker (mainly mediums and heavies.) I'd be interested to know more about DATA's views on the state of mediums and heavies.

[The6thMessenger]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 05:10 PM, said:

no way if people like you don't have the abilities to understand stuff, not the will to see things form an objective point of view

People have the ability to understand, to varying levels. That's just like the Bell Curve.

Simply disagreeing with you doesn't mean they don't understand. Hell, I wasn't disagreeing with you on what is best to use or what is meta, you can have that high ground. My sentiment always has been what can work in QP, that CERML for all of its flaws, works.

And to label them as simply "arrogant", just because of disagreements from a self-professed authority isn't helpful -- that you just wanted people to listen to you just because. That's just Psychological Reactance. I could see why it's not working.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 01 March 2021 - 05:48 PM.