801 replies to this topic

[Ardra]

Early thoughts are ppc cool down a little too long, maybe drop 0.5 seconds off it and would function perfectly as intended

[Z Cassel]

Seriously if you are so damned insistent on the stupid battlefield role, switch matchmaking and point based on role. Weigh matchmaking based on your metrics of lance in formation, protected "size", etc. Start paying attention to damage absorbed. Do something other than rewarding LRM boats and poptarts. They're they most selfish and exploitative types of play this game has seen and I am so very tired of trying to carry a team only to be abandoned in a push, defense, or flanking maneuver because half the team hasn't communicated they're lrm boats or ppc poptarts. Penalize them or reward them or whatever, but acknowledge the different play style for once and incorporate that data into your quick match algorithyms because the current system makes me want to not play this game in spite of how much of my being wants to find any excuse possible to keep playing. Fix this. You need to acknowledge the different play styles before you do anything else. Show us how many people obtain kills at each range with each weapon type and start building roles from their. One way or another this current damage and killed based system is no longer enough, and I just have had it. My entire gaming group is playing Valheim currently and I actually took time away from something collaborative for this absolute garbage system of balance. I don't care how the meta stack up in the future at all if you don't find a way to get people to play a team sport as a team and to balance all the various talents. If you want to use the role system, fine. Make a gate that requires your mech to fit that role in loadout. You want people to brawl? Fine, they need to setup with x armor value as well as weapons with x dps or cycle time. Stop treating this like its just a single weapons system that effects gameplay and start treating the game with the respect that comes with acknowledging there's no balance in any way currently. Otherwise you aren't going to have 1/2 the population you current have 2 weeks after the next patch.

[Agyar30]

Tommy Atkins, on 17 March 2021 - 07:48 PM, said:

It's been a couple of years since the last weapon-balance patch, and I'd forgotten how spicy a balance change can make the community get.

Look: the meta has changed. It's changed before. It'll almost certainly change again.

Adapt and move on.

Nope.

At this point it does not work like that. They promised something did the complete opposite regarding working with the community. Very educated persons did the job for them for FREE. All they had to do and have to do is listen. Instead we got RANDOM s**t. Adapt if you want but i rather adapt to smart changes or if it is not possible i just play something else. The queue is terrible anyway because most players do not know how to handle weapons and the situation atm.

Edited by Agyar30, 18 March 2021 - 01:52 AM.

[skopskietendonner]

When I originally read about weapon balancing I got exited. Nerve LRM's and give the average pilot a chance on the missile maps. I thought "great, I can play again". Then I read your patch notes and I thought, Hmmm. Let's see, more damage but way longer cooldown time... how is that a balance. Oh well, let's see when it is in game and on the proofing grounds. What a ball-up guys!!!!

Who tested this and who in his right mind signed this off? If I deliver a similar type of release like you guys did to my employer, I am fired. trues bob

Agyar30, on 18 March 2021 - 01:49 AM, said:

Nope.

At this point it does not work like that. They promised something did the complete opposite regarding working with the community. Very educated persons did the job for them for FREE. All they had to do and have to do is listen. Instead we got RANDOM s**t. Adapt if you want but i rather adapt to smart changes or if it is not possible i just play something else. The queue is terrible anyway because most players do not know how to handle weapons and the situation atm.

Yeah - agreed. Time to move on...

Z Cassel, on 18 March 2021 - 12:50 AM, said:

Seriously if you are so damned insistent on the stupid battlefield role, switch matchmaking and point based on role. Weigh matchmaking based on your metrics of lance in formation, protected "size", etc. Start paying attention to damage absorbed. Do something other than rewarding LRM boats and poptarts. They're they most selfish and exploitative types of play this game has seen and I am so very tired of trying to carry a team only to be abandoned in a push, defense, or flanking maneuver because half the team hasn't communicated they're lrm boats or ppc poptarts. Penalize them or reward them or whatever, but acknowledge the different play style for once and incorporate that data into your quick match algorithyms because the current system makes me want to not play this game in spite of how much of my being wants to find any excuse possible to keep playing. Fix this. You need to acknowledge the different play styles before you do anything else. Show us how many people obtain kills at each range with each weapon type and start building roles from their. One way or another this current damage and killed based system is no longer enough, and I just have had it. My entire gaming group is playing Valheim currently and I actually took time away from something collaborative for this absolute garbage system of balance. I don't care how the meta stack up in the future at all if you don't find a way to get people to play a team sport as a team and to balance all the various talents. If you want to use the role system, fine. Make a gate that requires your mech to fit that role in loadout. You want people to brawl? Fine, they need to setup with x armor value as well as weapons with x dps or cycle time. Stop treating this like its just a single weapons system that effects gameplay and start treating the game with the respect that comes with acknowledging there's no balance in any way currently. Otherwise you aren't going to have 1/2 the population you current have 2 weeks after the next patch.

BRAVO!! Could not have said it better myself. Agree 110%

[skopskietendonner]

Toast3r, on 17 March 2021 - 11:31 PM, said:

Feedback:

This patch does not make the game any more fun, and if the goal was to make the game more fun, I think this patch actually moves in exactly the wrong direction for most players.

It seems like this patch is aimed more towards achieving balance akin to the balance in rock-paper-scissors.

• Did you bring a push deck vs someone who brought trade-centric ppcs and gauss? You win if you push because they won't be able to keep up with your dps by a long shot. It won't be close.
  
• Did you bring a push deck vs a ranged ac dps deck (particularly ac2s)? You lose if you try to push into that! They'll do too much damage before you get in range.
  
• Did you bring a ppc and trade-centric deck vs a slow, heavy ac dps deck that can't close? You win because you hit even harder now with the small peeks they need to get out damage! (Although, maybe the ppc deck loses here too now because -20% dps is a lot, and even an annihilator can close distance on most maps.)

Yes, weapons should serve unique roles, but forcing them too tightly into a specific role is bad too. I don't think anyone wants matches to be decided ahead of time by the mechlab rock-paper-scissors game. Not to mention, 7s is an eternity, and nothing sucks worse in a game than dying while you are literally unable to do anything.


That being said, I don't think this patch changed too much other than just making PPCs harder for the average player to use. The competitive players who enjoyed playing PPCs to trade before will do just as well if not better. Similarly, 2ppc mechs that were easier to play with more heat efficiency were hurt while it seems like mechs with 3-4 ppcs are stronger traders as they were more limited by cooling than cooldown anyways.

I just don't think this patch and its changes serve the community well at all. If anything, it serves more competitive players more than anyone else, as, in my experience, they are the players that enjoy PPC trading the most. Don't get me wrong, that's nice ot have a patch that seems to favor top-down balance. It's just, I think there are other ideas that the community and the balance gulag have discussed and communicated with Daeron and PGI that would make the game more fun for everyone, not primarily the competitive players among us.

The biggest letdown is that despite how well communication seemed to be going with Daeron as the new community manager, it seems like somehow someone or some people within PGI just overrode everything and decided to go their own way with the balance changes blindsiding everyone else in the process. These changes came out of left field with little context as to how or if this fits into the dialogue that seemed to be going well, and now we're all just wondering if it's back to the status quo where the community just has to wait and wonder. It's not enough to have the dialogue with Daeron (and Matt?) if they remain isolated from the person or people making final decisions about what makes it into patches. I don't think anyone expects PGI to adopt every change suggested exactly as suggested, and I expect them to come up with and implement some changes of their own. We just want to why this was the first thing that was changed. What is being considered next? How does this fit in with what was discussed? A paragraph would suffice. Cut down on what is written about the exact changes themselves if necessary. The big picture is more important.

Finally, I don't understand why the trial mechs were modified from what was submitted. Jay Z is one of the best players in the game. I'm sure he'd beat me 99 times out of 100 in a 1v1, but he's also super helpful and would do his damnedest to help make that 98 of 100 then 97 of 100 and so on. Anyone who has talked to him or seen his stream knows just how much he wants to help all players and just how much effort he puts into that. Trust that his builds are good and don't mess with them or at least have a back and forth about changes if you do seriously want to make them.

Excellent point(s)

[Averof]

Daeron Katz, on 17 March 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

Hello all, I've been spending the last two days reading the forum threads, monitoring Twitch chats, and reading all the feedback sent to me through email, Discord, Twitter, etc. As you might imagine, as this is already a 34 page thread, the amount of feedback has been substantial.

I'm just making a quick post to let you know that Matt and I will be addressing this patch, future patches, Quarter 2 development, the overall MWO Roadmap, and more in a Dev Vlog this week. In the meantime, continue with the feedback, venting, or anything else you want to get across to us.

Appreciated

[Al_Bundy]

See it positively:
After a very long time, there is a PATCH, although the changes are certainly not set in stone.

It's an attempt that can be adapted again.

But the patch is a sign of life

Edited by BoneHunt, 18 March 2021 - 04:02 AM.

[invernomuto]

Ardra, on 18 March 2021 - 12:37 AM, said:

Early thoughts are ppc cool down a little too long, maybe drop 0.5 seconds off it and would function perfectly as intended

I agree, first impression is that they killed brawling with PPCs with these CD values, needs to be tuned down a bit.

IshanDeston, on 18 March 2021 - 03:12 AM, said:

Before and after patches its "We listen, we listen, we totally do", on patch day its "F-em, doin' my thang" and then after the patch its "We listen, we totz swearz! This was just an exception, a rogue employee that stole into the sever room in the cover of the night, rappelled down the ceiling and Ethan Hunted this change, we totz had nothing to do with this! But next time its gonna be different!"

[DAEDALOS513]

invernomuto, on 18 March 2021 - 04:46 AM, said:

I agree, first impression is that they killed brawling with PPCs with these CD values, needs to be tuned down a bit.

PPC's not meant to be brawled with.. other than snubs which their cooldown should definitely be tuned down at least one or 1.5 seconds.. other ppc cooldowns not so bad.

Remove masc nerf, keep masc duration buff.

Remove ac2/ac5 velocity buff. Nerf ac2 velocity.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 18 March 2021 - 05:00 AM.

[invernomuto]

DAEDALOS513, on 18 March 2021 - 04:58 AM, said:

PPC's not meant to be brawled with.. other than snubs which their cooldown should definitely be tuned down at least one or 1.5 seconds.. other ppc cooldowns not so bad.

I agree that they're not weapons tailored on brawling, nevertheless these high CDs relegate PPCs only to long range sniping. 7 secs for CERPPC is half an eternity.

Edited by invernomuto, 18 March 2021 - 05:23 AM.

[nopempele]

Voice of Kerensky, on 17 March 2021 - 06:59 PM, said:

Yesterday, a comrade told me that his shots from the PPC fly through the enemy's mech without causing any harm, as if the enemy's mech is transparent to the weapon.

Hmm, come to think of, I've actually had the same experience. At the time I just shrugged it off blaming it on the network lag or something. Could it be related to the recent EU server migration?

[DAEDALOS513]

invernomuto, on 18 March 2021 - 05:22 AM, said:

I agree that they're not weapons tailored on brawling, nevertheless these high CDs relegate PPCs only to long range sniping. 7 secs for CERPPC is half an eternity.

This is how I feel about peeps.. PPC's (except snubs) are too strong now despite the added cooldown and heat (especially IS heavies and clan). Each shot that lands (and usually it's two or even three that hit you at once) is pretty devastating especially in a light or medium.

Clan peeps were already too strong damage wise.. and you could brawl and snipe with them. At least these changes make clanners more honest.. you can't boat peep's now and expect to do well in every mode, any situation. You need good situational awareness and even might be wiser to make your builds hybrid's, or... be content to just snipe. Clan peeps should have been kept the same with just an increase in cooldown.

IS peeps we all know have always been weaker (except for heavy) and light peeps all but useless. To make them somewhat comparable to Clan.. IS ER, LIGHT and SNUB peeps should have kept same damage and cooldown but decreased their heat so you can fire more often (more dps but with a higher exposure trade-off)... with heavy peeps staying the same.

Even if not perfect, my suggestions represent baby steps.. this way during testing we more easily see if the change works or not.. changing 4 different aspects of a weapon at the same time makes testing much more difficult.

PS. no ppc's really needed a velocity increase.. these are not layserzz

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 18 March 2021 - 07:57 AM.

[Mechdocdie]

MASC feedback Part 2: From Black Lanner to Hellfire.

Tried running a few of my Hellfire's tonight and if anything the feeling with the MASC is worse than the Lanner. Sure, heavier mech and not natively as mobile (Lanner turns ~104deg/s, Hellfire ~50 deg/s) but if you press the MASC button in the Hellfire forget about turning, even if you are standng still. Both BLR and HLF sport a MASC MkII so both have their turn rate decreased -0.1 with MASC. That's a 10% decrease, effectively negating 2 nodes of anchor turn in the mobility tree... but in the Hellfire it feels much worse than that. Hitting MASC and trying to turn in a Hellfire now feels like having a seizure in treacle; lots of shaking and movement but you're not getting anywhere.

Masc has now been relegated to being an aid to running in a straight line. I have always tended to run my Hellfire's as medium range mechs but the more I played tonight the more the MASC seemed to call out "LURM...Reposition faster...LURM again...catch up to the nascar".

I'll try my Spirit Bear next but I'm not feeling good about this; turn rate 44.62 deg/s, MASC MkIV with a boost turn reduced to -0.2 (from +0.3). Memories of brawling just faded even more

Edited by Mechdocdie, 18 March 2021 - 06:07 AM.

[Albert C]

Having a great time poptarting with VGL erppcs today, tho haven't tried gauss as planned. Had a match with Baradul who's running 4LGR FNR5. He dealt over 1100 damage and I dealt 860 damage. Gotta say light gauss is still decent for sniper builds(strength in number tho). Havent seen any normal gauss action for several matches, they need buff.

[TWLT S]

Actually I dont know what to think about the PPC changes and currently I stoped playing the game for various reasons, so I cant test it.

However one thing is quiet annoiying. The communication.

PGI asks for community feedback. Nothing happens for months and a patch is released with changes noone asked for. That is no communication, bc communication is an process of exchange.

[PraetorGix]

Albert C, on 18 March 2021 - 06:48 AM, said:

Having a great time poptarting with VGL erppcs today, tho haven't tried gauss as planned. Had a match with Baradul who's running 4LGR FNR5. He dealt over 1100 damage and I dealt 860 damage. Gotta say light gauss is still decent for sniper builds(strength in number tho). Havent seen any normal gauss action for several matches, they need buff.

What you are describing is exactly one (two actually) of the worse problems of this patch, despite your apparent enjoyment of it.
1. You NEED to boat these weapons now, if you had a build with one of these as your main weapon, that changed now, and your main weapon is now the support for your previously-support-weapons. The only mechs that can use them now are the mechs that were heavily favored before. If there was a meta PPC and gauss mech before, now it is absolutely mandatory.
2. You better be a great goddamned pilot if you plan to use these weapons now. Since you mentioned Baradul, he talked about this precise thing in a video: your shots are more vital than ever now, you better don't miss them because by the next time you can shoot the drop is over. How is this supposed to help new and/or bad players, or people with high ping?

Edited by PraetorGix, 18 March 2021 - 12:17 PM.

[spannerturner]

nopempele, on 18 March 2021 - 05:42 AM, said:

Hmm, come to think of, I've actually had the same experience. At the time I just shrugged it off blaming it on the network lag or something. Could it be related to the recent EU server migration?

I have been having this experience myself for the last couple of weeks... Really frustrating and annoying. Will be even more so now with the longer CDs.

[crazytimes]

The EXE with MASC is just lulz now. Feels like your locked on a train track. Makes it hard to try and use the MASC to keep up with the NASCAR as you can't make.a tight enough left turn.

Good for the initial positioning sprint from the absolutely useless spawns that they couldn't be bothered fixing, but the handling is wrecked for mid match. I'm glad resources were put into wrecking MASC rather than fixing spawns.

[BTGbullseye]

Bud Crue, on 15 March 2021 - 12:22 PM, said:

That first alpha at max range. The smug smile as they connect with the target. Then the dawning horror as they watch the enemy team's LRMers throw volley after volley of woosh in their direction while the poor sucker has to wait a full *seven* seconds before they can respond.

Ah, yes... The ultimate potato, refusing to use any cover. This is definitely what we should be using as the example for balance changes that also affect people with brains.

nopempele, on 15 March 2021 - 05:46 PM, said:

I like the Gauss charge. It's one of the rare ideas that PGI did right and it even makes sense.

No it doesn't, at least not if you don't also remove the gauss explosion on crit. The only reason gauss explodes is because it's always charged, and the capacitors can explode. If it's not charged until you pull the trigger, then it shouldn't explode. Lore says it's always charged/charging, and that charge rate exclusively is the fire rate limiter on the weapon. (which is why HAGs are possible, they just charge way faster)

[euphoriamass]

You nerfed weapons that were already on life support? As other have said.. this doesn't address the MPL nascar soup meta, and it doesn't address the C-ERPPC Vapor Eagle spam.. the two most boring/stale aspects of the soup queue imo. Over the past 6 months I've gone from an every day player to a few hours a week. You're killing your own game PGI.