400 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 04:52 AM, said:

It's true derek.. gulag changes will make mistakes less forgiving so instead of surviving two or three mistakes.. now less experienced players will be lucky to survive one (ie. going out of position or exposing back, etc). Most of Gulag changes are silly.. buffing things that don't need it.

In a vacuum maybe, but if agility is improved going forward that would make a HUGE difference.

Right now, going out of position/exposing your FRONT to multiple of the enemy team results in essentially an instant death. Seriously, the armor of an assault disappears under focus fire. This just means that more builds will be viable, and less of the players will have ineffective loadouts, so if anything, its more forgiving of people learning the game and don't know that laser vomit is less optimal than dakka, for example.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 03:45 AM, said:

Some of Gulag's changes are reasonable.. but other's aren't. They want to buff heavy ppc's by decreasing heat and increasing velocity.. which is pretty insane and goes outside the weapons' niche. They also want to buff velocity on clan ac2's.. what? They want to decrease heat on most ac weapons.. why? AC's are the easiest weapon to control your heat with.. imagine a blood asp or madcat ii with better heat.. bahahhaah.. i don't even..[/color]

I haven't even looked at all the changes but those above stood out for me.[/color]

Most of their proposed changes are like a little boys wish list of buffs.. a boy that doesn't know what's best for him.. they would take us in the wrong direction if we want to decrease ttk. If Gulag changes get implemented I can see TTK drastically reduced. IMO compers should not be dictating the direction of the game regardless of their experience.. they do not best represent the interests of the general mechwarrior.

The Clan AC2s velocity is the same that is live right now. Also, they decreased heat on non-ultra ACs. The Mad Cat and Blood Asp builds you refer to use Ultras, so no change. Honestly if you're going to make claims maybe make sure that the builds you refer too are actually the ones being buffed? This post reads like a boy who didn't actually take the time to evaluate the changes.

It also sounds like you don't want more builds to be viable so you can keep farming people who don't know better.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 March 2021 - 07:36 AM.

[Krasnopesky]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 03:45 AM, said:

Some of Gulag's changes are reasonable.. but other's aren't. They want to buff heavy ppc's by decreasing heat and increasing velocity.. which is pretty insane and goes outside the weapons' niche. They also want to buff velocity on clan ac2's.. what? They want to decrease heat on most ac weapons.. why? AC's are the easiest weapon to control your heat with.. imagine a blood asp or madcat ii with better heat.. bahahhaah.. i don't even..[/color]

I haven't even looked at all the changes but those above stood out for me.[/color]

Most of their proposed changes are like a little boys wish list of buffs.. a boy that doesn't know what's best for him.. they would take us in the wrong direction if we want to decrease ttk. If Gulag changes get implemented I can see TTK drastically reduced. IMO compers should not be dictating the direction of the game regardless of their experience.. they do not best represent the interests of the general mechwarrior.

Heavy PPCs are really only good on 'Mechs with large quirks. Our concept is to make them usable on 'Mechs without any offensive quirks so we can better evaluate 'Mech quirks in another PTS later this year. If the HPPC changes prove to be too much in the first iteration of the PTS, give us your feedback and we can modify them further in the second PTS.

AC2s will have the same stats they currently do in game, we are not touching them.

The most common builds by far for Blood Asps and Madcats are using UAC5s and UAC10s. We have not modified those weapon systems. We have modified regular autocannons as they see little use in comparison to the ultra variants.

TTK should not drastically reduce with this PTS. We have mainly buffed underperforming weapons and left alone the top meta weapons that currently dictate TTK in game (IS MPL, UAC5s and UAC10s, cERPPC for example). If TTK is shown a drastic reduction then we will modify the values so that does not occur as it isn't our intention.

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 04:00 AM, said:

It's an AC2.. it's not supposed to be as viable alone as an ac5 or ac10.. The upside of an ac2 is it's cooldown and suppression ability.. it's should not be strong damage wise as well..

Then we agree. I was replying to a person who wanted to buff AC2 damage to 5 because he claimed AC2s could not be used in small quantities.

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 04:52 AM, said:

It's true derek.. gulag changes will make mistakes less forgiving so instead of surviving two or three mistakes.. now less experienced players will be lucky to survive one (ie. going out of position or exposing back, etc). Most of Gulag changes are silly.. buffing things that don't need it.

The current patch does this far worse than The Cauldron (we have rebranded) PTS ever would. Clan ERPPCs currently do 19.2 damage per shot and have a longer cooldown. That means people who cannot aim well are even more punished from missing with one of the top weapon systems in the game and receive far more damage per shot than they previously did.

The Cauldron does not want to punish players at different levels, in fact our changes are simply geared towards giving players of all skill levels more weapon options to choose from and be successful with, rather than reducing TTK or punishing low skill.

It would be great if you could fully read our suggested changes and then provide your own suggestions on balance for us to evaluate. Simply reading portions of the updates and making assumptions because some of us play comp is not as helpful as a proper evaluation and discussion from someone who plays the game as much as you do.

[Navid A1]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 03:45 AM, said:

Some of Gulag's changes are reasonable.. but other's aren't. They want to buff heavy ppc's by decreasing heat and increasing velocity.. which is pretty insane and goes outside the weapons' niche. They also want to buff velocity on clan ac2's.. what? They want to decrease heat on most ac weapons.. why? AC's are the easiest weapon to control your heat with.. imagine a blood asp or madcat ii with better heat.. bahahhaah.. i don't even..[/color]

I haven't even looked at all the changes but those above stood out for me.[/color]

Most of their proposed changes are like a little boys wish list of buffs.. a boy that doesn't know what's best for him.. they would take us in the wrong direction if we want to decrease ttk. If Gulag changes get implemented I can see TTK drastically reduced. IMO compers should not be dictating the direction of the game regardless of their experience.. they do not best represent the interests of the general mechwarrior.

Heavy PPCs are buffed in accordance to their performance on mechs that are heavily quirked.

Look at the Awesome, or the BJ3, those mechs are the only ones in the entire game that can use a HPPC effectively, And it's largely due to their massive heat and velocity quirks, do you think either of those mechs break the game right now?

The changes made to the HPPCs makes it possible for a wider range of mechs to take it with less punishment. And of course the quirks on the some mechs will be tuned down later on to reflect these changes to the base stats.

AC2 velocity in the game right now is 2k, see if that is game breaking.

Reduction of heat on regular ACs mean that you can pack more complimentary weapons such as PPCs or lasers with less worry about heat... you just have to be up to date with what are some of the new possibilities... otherwise, everyone and their cat knows about dakka Madkat and BASP.

Also, regarding TTK... non of the top performing weapons have been touched. But now you have more alternatives to pick from.
Specifically most of the boosted weapons are close range and brawling weapons. Also the changes to streaks are done in a way so that they are less punishing to lights that make a mistake or turn the wrong corner, giving them an option to run away. This would be helpful to new players.

We have a modified mechlab website: https://gulag.nav-alpha.com/
Give it a try... and pay attention to the changelog, specifically ghost heat adjustments on some weapons.

[Nightbird]

Out of curiosity, where did 19.2 damage for C-ERPPC come from? Patch notes says 18. Damage is calculated server side right?

[Krasnopesky]

Nightbird, on 23 March 2021 - 08:22 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, where did 19.2 damage for C-ERPPC come from? Patch notes says 18. Damage is calculated server side right?

PGI incorrectly modified the XMLs. They set cERPPC damage to 12 and put the multiplier percentage to 0.3. The result is 12 pinpoint damage and two lots of 12 x 0.3 splash damage which equals to 19.2 damage per shot of cERPPC.

Here is what it looks like:

[DAEDALOS513]

Navid A1, on 23 March 2021 - 08:20 AM, said:

Heavy PPCs are buffed in accordance to their performance on mechs that are heavily quirked.

Look at the Awesome, or the BJ3, those mechs are the only ones in the entire game that can use a HPPC effectively, And it's largely due to their massive heat and velocity quirks, do you think either of those mechs break the game right now?

The changes made to the HPPCs makes it possible for a wider range of mechs to take it with less punishment. And of course the quirks on the some mechs will be tuned down later on to reflect these changes to the base stats.

AC2 velocity in the game right now is 2k, see if that is game breaking.

Reduction of heat on regular ACs mean that you can pack more complimentary weapons such as PPCs or lasers with less worry about heat... you just have to be up to date with what are some of the new possibilities... otherwise, everyone and their cat knows about dakka Madkat and BASP.

Also, regarding TTK... non of the top performing weapons have been touched. But now you have more alternatives to pick from.
Specifically most of the boosted weapons are close range and brawling weapons. Also the changes to streaks are done in a way so that they are less punishing to lights that make a mistake or turn the wrong corner, giving them an option to run away. This would be helpful to new players.

We have a modified mechlab website: https://gulag.nav-alpha.com/
Give it a try... and pay attention to the changelog, specifically ghost heat adjustments on some weapons.

If you start buffing weapons only to nerf quirks.. when will it end? We'll spend a year tuning and tuning.. I wouldn't mind so much but pgi doesn't have the manpower to waste. And we all know with each single change comes the chance of breaking the game somehow... and this is a lot of changing. Haven't we wasted enough time on tuning.. there are only a few weapon systems that truly need it.. off the top of my head: LPPC, LGAUSS, CERPPC (def not ac2 which need nerfing).

You say that we'll be able to build more complimentary builds when lowering ac heat.. but guess what.. you know and I know, the majority will not. They will boat those ac's to no end because nothing will beat it.. even those that try complimentary builds will say screw this once they get downed in 5 seconds flat by a dakka boat. Instead of buffing, maybe nerfing them will force more complimentary builds.

I didn't say all CAULDRON changes were bad, but some are and go in wrong direction. Where is clan ppc nerf? Do you really think it's ok to dominate in brawl and snipe with the same weapon system?

We need real changes (patches not hotfixes) that will bring the boys to the yard.. more content: maps and game modes to start.. and even QOL changes.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 10:11 AM.

[Nightbird]

Krasnopesky, on 23 March 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

PGI incorrectly modified the XMLs. They set cERPPC damage to 12 and put the multiplier percentage to 0.3. The result is 12 pinpoint damage and two lots of 12 x 0.3 splash damage which equals to 19.2 damage per shot of cERPPC.

Here is what it looks like:

As they stated the PPC cooldown incorrectly as 4.5s, I wouldn't put it past them. Surprised they changed this, since the original 0.25 was correct.

[Krasnopesky]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 08:34 AM, said:

If you start buffing weapons only to nerf quirks.. when will it end? We'll spend a year tuning and tuning.. I wouldn't mind so much but pgi doesn't have the manpower to waste. And we all know with each single change comes the chance of breaking the game somehow... and this is a lot of changing. Haven't we wasted enough time on tuning.. there are only a few weapon systems that truly need it.. off the top of my head: LPPC, LGAUSS, CERPPC (def not ac2).

You say that we'll be able to build more complimentary builds when lowering ac heat.. but guess what.. you know and I know, no one will. They will boat those ac's to no end because nothing will beat it.. even those that try complimentary builds will say screw this once they get downed in 5 seconds flat by a dakka boat. Instead of buffing, maybe nerfing them will force more complimentary builds.

I didn't say all gulag changes were bad, but some are and go in wrong direction. Where is clan ppc nerf? Do you really think it's ok to dominate in brawl and snipe with the same weapon system? Same with ac2's..

We need real changes (patches not hotfixes) that will bring the boys to the yard.. more content: maps and game modes to start.. and even QOL changes.

Maps, game modes and QOL changes are on PGI to supply, we can't do that. The entire point of this PTS is to make the job of balancing easier for PGI so they can focus on those important aspects. PGI would literally just have to copy and paste the XML file we supplied them rather than do all the research and play-testing themselves.

Again AC2s are unchanged from the current game. If you log in and play the game now, that is exactly how AC2s will perform in this PTS.

Nightbird, on 23 March 2021 - 08:37 AM, said:

As they stated the PPC cooldown incorrectly as 4.5s, I wouldn't put it past them. Surprised they changed this, since the original 0.25 was correct.

I guess that they wanted to buff flat damage first and then wanted to buff the splash a bit too, but missed that buffing both values creates a larger than intended increase to splash damage.

[DAEDALOS513]

Krasnopesky, on 23 March 2021 - 08:39 AM, said:

Maps, game modes and QOL changes are on PGI to supply, we can't do that. The entire point of this PTS is to make the job of balancing easier for PGI so they can focus on those important aspects. PGI would literally just have to copy and paste the XML file we supplied them rather than do all the research and play-testing themselves.

Again AC2s are unchanged from the current game. If you log in and play the game now, that is exactly how AC2s will perform in this PTS.

Copy and paste.. sounds good in theory but I have a feeling all these changes at one time will break the game somehow. Only way to know is if we try I guess. Personally I've always called for baby steps.. focusing on one weapon at a time, fine tuning it to perfection (so that you can't both brawl and snipe effectively with it alone for starters; see c-erppc and ac2 boats) and then moving on to the next. I know individual weapons don't live in a vacuum and have to be considered relative to their counterparts.. but if we make so many changes at once it will make narrowing things down much more difficult don't you think?

I don't like pgi's change to ac2's and they should be reverted.. most people here agree from what I read. I don't think I ever heard once that ac2's were too slow.. i've heard people complaining that they are too strong though, myself included.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 08:55 AM.

[Krasnopesky]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 08:54 AM, said:

Copy and paste.. sounds good in theory but I have a feeling all these changes at one time will break the game somehow. Only way to know is if we try I guess. Personally I've always called for baby steps.. focusing on one weapon at a time, fine tuning it to perfection (so that you can't both brawl and snipe effectively with it alone for starters; see c-erppc and ac2 boats) and then moving on to the next. I know individual weapons don't live in a vacuum and have to be considered relative to their counterparts.. but if we make so many changes at once it will make narrowing things down much more difficult don't you think?

I don't like pgi's change to ac2's and they should be reverted.. most people here agree from what I read. I don't think I ever heard once that ac2's were too slow.. i've heard people calling for nerfing though, myself included.

Well that's why it is good that we have the PTS instead of just a patch. We can test out the changes properly in game and refine them.

I agree that ideally it would be great to be able to look at one weapon, or group of weapons, at a time. However given PGI's rate of one patch a month it would take us well over a year to get through all the weapons. That would also create more work for PGI which would result in your previously mentioned fear of removing their focus from other important features that need updating.

The AC2 buff can easily be reverted in a second planned iteration of the PTS if it proves to be too much when considered with the other suggested changes.

As I mentioned before; test and play the PTS when it released and send us your feedback. We will be collating everyone's feedback across a variety of platforms (official forums, discords, reddit, in-game, facebook, twitter, etc) and we will be able to see if a lot of people like or dislike any number of changes and make modifications according to the feedback received.

Edited by Krasnopesky, 23 March 2021 - 09:18 AM.

[Nightbird]

Well, you know how you know balance is reached. Half the people complain they're too strong, the other half complain they are too weak.

[DAEDALOS513]

Nightbird, on 23 March 2021 - 09:03 AM, said:

Well, you know how you know balance is reached. Half the people complain they're too strong, the other half complain they are too weak.

Good one hehe.. but we all know what weapons are too strong.. the problem is getting the people that crutch on them to let go..

[DAEDALOS513]

Krasnopesky, on 23 March 2021 - 09:02 AM, said:

Well that's why it is good that we have the PTS instead of just a patch. We can test out the changes properly in game and refine them.

I agree that ideally it would be great to be able to look at one weapon, or group of weapons, at a time. However given PGI's rate of one patch a month it would take us well over a year to get through all the weapons. That would also create more work for PGI which would result in your previously mentioned fear of removing their focus from other important features that need updating.

The AC2 buff can easily be reverted in a second planned iteration of the PTS if it proves to be too much when considered with the other suggested changes.

As I mentioned before; test and play the PTS when it released and send us your feedback. We will be collating everyone's feedback across a variety of platforms (official forums, discords, reddit, in-game, facebook, twitter, etc) and we will be able to see if a lot of people like or dislike any number of changes and make modifications according to the feedback received.

Since you now have PGI's ear.. maybe you can get them to fine-tune hot-fix bi-monthly.. if it really is a copy and paste procedure? 2 weeks is long enough to determine value of a change.. that is if we don't adjust every weapon at once..

The AC2 was already too much, no one said it was weak or needed to be touched.. so why bother going through with the change? It just dilutes focus..

I applaud how how much time and effort you guys are putting into this and we thank you.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 09:53 AM.

[CFC Conky]

The problem I see with all of this is that any changes have to be done within the constraints of the program code, limiting our options.

You probably can’t code it in MWO but it would be interesting to see how something like variable cool down would look like. For example, irl firing too long a burst with a machine gun can affect its performance. I wonder what it would be like to have a similar thing for the PPC family.

Just spitballing numbers here but my idea would run along the lines of:

First three shots - 4 sec cd
Next five - 5 sec cd
Next ten - 6 sec cd
Every other shot - 7 sec cd

If you don’t fire them for a fixed period, say, one minute, the cd mechanic resets. You could also apply it to Gauss rifles. Like I said, the numbers are only used as an example of how the cd mechanic would function.

In any case it’s a moot point since it likely can’t be programmed.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 23 March 2021 - 09:59 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 March 2021 - 07:29 AM, said:

In a vacuum maybe, but if agility is improved going forward that would make a HUGE difference.

Right now, going out of position/exposing your FRONT to multiple of the enemy team results in essentially an instant death. Seriously, the armor of an assault disappears under focus fire. This just means that more builds will be viable, and less of the players will have ineffective loadouts, so if anything, its more forgiving of people learning the game and don't know that laser vomit is less optimal than dakka, for example.

Unless you go full call of duty (call of mechwarrior?) with agility buffs and make heavies and assaults move like lights and mediums.. bunny hopping every second.. buffing weapons will melt armor much quicker then before.

So everyone will have more viable builds.. you do realize that means TTK will be drastically reduced. Is this what gulag wants? No one wants this.. I don't get it..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 09:58 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

You all want to use weapons as a crutch.. relying on op weapons to do well. What makes this game stand out from most others is that it's focused on teamplay, good positioning, situational awareness and all that good stuff that you have to put more than two brain cells together and think about.. it's not just run-and- gun which is for the most part the direction CAULDRON changes will take this game.

The shorter the match the less you care about a game and the less effort you put into it. Lather rinse repeat.. boooring.

I dream of a game where matches last at least 10 minutes.. where you can't' get insta-cored and battles feel like BATTLES!

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 10:11 AM.

[Gagis]

You can't get insta-cored unless you expose yourself to the entire enemy team.

If you expose yourself to the entire enemy team, no amount of armour buffs, weapon nerf and unfunning of the game will save you.

2v1 has half the TTK no matter what. 12v1 has no TTK at all, and will never do.

Edited by Gagis, 23 March 2021 - 10:11 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gagis, on 23 March 2021 - 10:11 AM, said:

You can't get insta-cored unless you expose yourself to the entire enemy team.

If you expose yourself to the entire enemy team, no amount of armour buffs, weapon nerf and unfunning of the game will save you.

Sure if you expose to half their team and all focus you fine.. but (and by insta I mean under 4 seconds).. you should not be cored and near death in under 4 seconds seconds in a heavy or assault. There are too many mechs/builds that can do that alone, let alone two hitting you. A single mech should not be that strong.. THAT is unfunning, and that is whats wrong with low TTK.

Heck a single ac2 boat from 800m can bring you to your knees in that amount of time especially if you don't have jets.. just silly how ac2's core.. and yes I twist

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 01:40 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 March 2021 - 07:35 AM, said:

The Clan AC2s velocity is the same that is live right now. Also, they decreased heat on non-ultra ACs. The Mad Cat and Blood Asp builds you refer to use Ultras, so no change. Honestly if you're going to make claims maybe make sure that the builds you refer too are actually the ones being buffed? This post reads like a boy who didn't actually take the time to evaluate the changes.

Never liked pgi's velocity increase on ac2's..

You're right I read it wrong.. i saw clan ac's buffed and thought that included uac's. Still not sure why Cauldron thinks ac's need less heat.. they're not being used because they are hot but because uac's are too strong. Nerf uac's if you want people to use non-uac ac's.. but that'll never happen.. too many like that sweet and easy damage.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 10:29 AM.