166 replies to this topic

[Kroete]

Gagis, on 23 March 2021 - 01:50 AM, said:

Good balance is the same for competitive play and casual play. There is no conflict of interest so I have no idea what you are insinuating.

And yes, I am talking about minute changes to TTK. The change will be minor, since fast kills happen with the best weapons. An MPL Vulcan or dakka Blood Asp will kill you exactly as fast in the PTS as it kills you now. TTK is currently long, so any small change is extremely unlikely to make it unreasonably fast since power creep should not happen if we test things properly and don't let something become better than the current top weapons. I consider such a small change perfectly acceptable, especially if there are agility changes and mech rescales coming, which ought to dramatically increase TTK.

We can talk about armour buffs later. PTS is only limited to balance of power between different weapon systems, many of which are currently way below the curve.

There are a few weapons that kill fast, as you stated, after the change all weapons can kill that fast.
After you stated that only 4 weapons are top performers, we will have more then a minor increase in tkk, if all weapons are performing on that level.
Its not only armor, its also about ammo, not that ammo count is a big balancing factor in mwo (whats bad), it becomes even less relevant if the enemys dies faster.

The rescale is more then an xml change, will pgi invest that much money in it?
And if, will they scale the small mechs up (ttk increases) or big mechs down (ttk decreases a little)?

What agility changes? And will pgi do this too?


Why more armor:
MPL 6 Damage, 2.8 cooldown. 0,6 duration,
for tt it would be (10/(2.8+0.6))*6=17.6 damage,
thats nearly 3 times the damage against only 2 times the armor,
without throwing dices about hitlocations.
If you get all weapons on that level,an armor increase is needed.

But i get even more worried about that suggestions: Less ttk, faster mechs, do you want cod with mechs?

Edited by Kroete, 23 March 2021 - 12:53 PM.

[Zuul the Burninator]

Kroete, on 23 March 2021 - 12:49 PM, said:

There are a few weapons that kill fast, as you stated, after the change all weapons can kill that fast.
After you stated that only 4 weapons are top performers, we will have more then a minor increase in tkk, if all weapons are performing on that level.
Its not only armor, its also about ammo, not that ammo count is a big balancing factor in mwo (whats bad), it becomes even less relevant if the enemys dies faster.

The rescale is more then an xml change, will pgi invest that much money in it?
And if, will they scale the small mechs up (ttk increases) or big mechs down (ttk decreases a little)?

What agility changes? And will pgi do this too?


Why more armor:
MPL 6 Damage, 2.8 cooldown. 0,6 duration,
for tt it would be (10/(2.8+0.6))*6=17.6 damage,
thats nearly 3 times the damage against only 2 times the armor,
without throwing dices about hitlocations.
If you get all weapons on that level,an armor increase is needed.

But i get even more worried about that suggestions: Less ttk, faster mechs, do you want cod with mechs?

Your misinterpreting the term agility in terms of MWO, agility has no reference to a mechs top end speed, it references more so to the rate at which a mechs torso will twist, higher torso twist rates on mechs that have been hammered by nerfs previously will actually become viable, such as the kodiak which was nerf batted into the shadow realm with it's agility. You will now be able to spread the damage, more evenly and making it harder to focus full bursts and burns onto specific points. Combine that with the rescaling of mechs at a later date and you will see mechs become much harder to kill as proper hit boxes, and size of mechs will feel right, your mech will tank a lot more damage while still dishing it back out meaning MORE TTK.

Secondly read the changes thoroughly, the Gulag is not looking to improve good weapons even further, they are looking to bring irrelevant weapons more in line with the current front runners while maintaining a good bit of uniqueness and utility to all. I count myself as a casual player who only recently started doing competitive play at the start of lock down here in the NA about a year ago... but I predominantly QP, and I can say that the Gulag's changes represent the best possible options moving forward so that we don't see the same repetitive builds and chassis over and over in QP but see larger varieties of builds and mechs.

I implore you all who doubt the Gulag's changes to join the PTS, get some games in, try things, and see how it feels, then constructively voice what you don't like so that those in the Gulag can read, review, and see if what you say is a common trend and make the proper changes as needed, if needed. This is your chance to not only change MWO for the better, but to BECOME part of the Gulag, the coming PTS is your chance to be the change you want to see. I cannot stress this enough this PTS is Public for all to try, to get a feel and at first it may not feel right, but once you get your feet wet, and figure out the fun stuff to be done you will see these changes are only for the betterment of MWO and all of us, comp, casual, Faction players, and all who love this game. Try the changes. Be the change you want to be... make MWO a truly unique game in a sea of CoD copies, or battle royals.

And for the record, I'm 7 years deep into MWO, I have seen what horrors have been done to this game... and trust me, these changes will make this a much better experience for all, and not just the alleged hyper elite comp players. I am in the MWO Comp Discord and have seen people from all walks of life talking about the changes, and those who did all this work responding to their questions, or requests, and answering or considering what they have said. The ones making these changes aren't your CS:GO, or CoD pro's... these are guys who love this game and what everyone to enjoy it, and everything to matter. Give it a chance.

Edited by Zuul the Burninator, 23 March 2021 - 02:02 PM.

[Bowelhacker]

Probably doesn't matter what any gulags or cauldrons or incubators come up with, PGI still has to implement it without ******* it up.

[Heavy Money]

Gagis, on 23 March 2021 - 01:50 AM, said:

Good balance is the same for competitive play and casual play. There is no conflict of interest so I have no idea what you are insinuating.

And yes, I am talking about minute changes to TTK. The change will be minor, since fast kills happen with the best weapons. An MPL Vulcan or dakka Blood Asp will kill you exactly as fast in the PTS as it kills you now. TTK is currently long, so any small change is extremely unlikely to make it unreasonably fast since power creep should not happen if we test things properly and don't let something become better than the current top weapons. I consider such a small change perfectly acceptable, especially if there are agility changes and mech rescales coming, which ought to dramatically increase TTK.

We can talk about armour buffs later. PTS is only limited to balance of power between different weapon systems, many of which are currently way below the curve.

I support the weapon changes, but I think we do have to acknowledge that this will cause people to die faster. Sure, we're just bringing bad weapons up to the level of good. But in a typical QP match, a lot of bad weapons are in use. In practice, TTK is going to go down from these weapons changes for most players, as most aren't playing comp matches where only the best weapons are used.

In the long term, a rescale should balance this out of course. But saying that TTK won't change from these changes is misleading. It will change for a lot of people, but its not really a problem.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a universal armor buff too.

Edited by Heavy Money, 23 March 2021 - 02:38 PM.

[Last Of The Brunnen-G]

FupDup, on 19 March 2021 - 04:01 PM, said:

Gauss charge was PGI's idea, not Gulag's. And it's a good mechanic because it makes the weapon truly different from other ballistics instead of just being a super AC/15.

I dunno what your issue with Clans having PPC splash is. Are you asking for IS PPCs to have their direct damage reduced and splash added, or just splash added to their existing damage? Either way I don't see any urgent need for this, and I definitely don't know why you're blaming Gulag for that.

Ultimately I have several complaints about the Gulag's ideas (making several weapons compete for the same role instead of giving them different roles) but I just don't see how it's "anti-casual." Most of the changes are fine from a casual soup queue perspective.

What is good on gauss charge? Gauss and PPCs are to weak anyway. Gauss can explode very easily, how does this make sense, if the weapon isn't precharged to begin with? If at all PPCs should blow up because of a precharge condition.

[The6thMessenger]

Bowelhacker, on 23 March 2021 - 02:04 PM, said:

Probably doesn't matter what any gulags or cauldrons or incubators come up with, PGI still has to implement it without ******* it up.

Yeah, i'd be surprised if there isn't an amount of butchering that defeats the purpose of the Gulag Cauldron changes cause you know, PGI being PGI.

[Adette]

The6thMessenger, on 23 March 2021 - 03:09 PM, said:

Yeah, i'd be surprised if there isn't an amount of butchering that defeats the purpose of the Gulag Cauldron changes cause you know, PGI being PGI.

[The6thMessenger]

Adette, on 23 March 2021 - 04:15 PM, said:

I meant the Live. It's "Implemented" in the Live server.

[The Mysterious Fox]

gulags is just simple xml changes for weapons, theres actually still so much more work behind it like quirks, scaling, skill tree, base attributes...etc

at this point id settle for just a whole scale revert to pre volumetric scaling and engine desync

Heavy Money, on 23 March 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

I support the weapon changes, but I think we do have to acknowledge that this will cause people to die faster. Sure, we're just bringing bad weapons up to the level of good. But in a typical QP match, a lot of bad weapons are in use. In practice, TTK is going to go down from these weapons changes for most players, as most aren't playing comp matches where only the best weapons are used.

In the long term, a rescale should balance this out of course. But saying that TTK won't change from these changes is misleading. It will change for a lot of people, but its not really a problem.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a universal armor buff too.

all mechs used to have incredible (compared to current) agility that you can learn (gameplay! skill ceiling! engagement!) to spread damage around your mech effectively

MasterBurte, on 23 March 2021 - 03:01 PM, said:

What is good on gauss charge? Gauss and PPCs are to weak anyway. Gauss can explode very easily, how does this make sense, if the weapon isn't precharged to begin with? If at all PPCs should blow up because of a precharge condition.

they added charge pretty early on because on-click gauss is actually super op

Edited by The Mysterious Fox, 23 March 2021 - 08:59 PM.

[YueFei]

The Mysterious Fox, on 23 March 2021 - 08:48 PM, said:

gulags is just simple xml changes for weapons, theres actually still so much more work behind it like quirks, scaling, skill tree, base attributes...etc

Just to clarify, Gulag addresses all the aspects you listed above, it's just that the upcoming PTS will only have the weapon changes.

[Kroete]

YueFei, on 23 March 2021 - 09:30 PM, said:

Just to clarify, Gulag addresses all the aspects you listed above, it's just that the upcoming PTS will only have the weapon changes.

Will pgi do more then xml changes?
They didnt it for the matchmaker ....

Heavy Money, on 23 March 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

I support the weapon changes, but I think we do have to acknowledge that this will cause people to die faster. Sure, we're just bringing bad weapons up to the level of good. But in a typical QP match, a lot of bad weapons are in use. In practice, TTK is going to go down from these weapons changes for most players, as most aren't playing comp matches where only the best weapons are used.

In the long term, a rescale should balance this out of course. But saying that TTK won't change from these changes is misleading. It will change for a lot of people, but its not really a problem.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a universal armor buff too.

After the discussion, with some of these other guys, i must say i have no trust for the people who made it,
they dont understand their own changes or plain lied to work to their agenda (less ttk),
and included a rescale for mechs in their balancing without knowing if pgi will do more then xml changes.

Until pgi clearly say they will invest in the rescale and other changes, its nothing more then an ageda for compplay with low ttk, cod with mechs. I dont think that the majority wants this in a mech game.

Edited by Kroete, 24 March 2021 - 12:54 AM.

[Bowelhacker]

I'm mostly just disappointed. Disappointed no one invited me to the gulag cauldron...

[Alexandros]

You are not a cool kid like them so no invites.

Bowelhacker, on 24 March 2021 - 02:56 AM, said:

I'm mostly just disappointed. Disappointed no one invited me to the gulag cauldron...

You are not a cool kid like them so no invites.

[InspectorG]

Alexandros, on 19 March 2021 - 09:57 PM, said:

This game used to have one of the most amazing communities. Now you say your opinion and the seal clubbing begins.

Ah... your opinions should AUTOMATICALLY garner praise without risk of challenge?

Your main argument is changes need to 'feel' more Battletech? How do you measure that? Feels plenty Battletech to me.

'Elites' ruin the game...DESPITE, years of PGI doing essentially the OPPOSTITE of their suggestions.

That makes no sense.

[pattonesque]

Alexandros, on 24 March 2021 - 06:01 AM, said:

You are not a cool kid like them so no invites.

You are not a cool kid like them so no invites.

literally the first thing you can click on on the MWOComp site is an invite to the discord server

my man, I get the impression you are very mad at what you imagine this to be and not what it actually is

[Alexandros]

pattonesque, on 24 March 2021 - 07:25 AM, said:

literally the first thing you can click on on the MWOComp site is an invite to the discord server

my man, I get the impression you are very mad at what you imagine this to be and not what it actually is

It was sarcasm (You could simply direct the other player to the link not me.) I ve seen the list and I dont like it.

[pattonesque]

Alexandros, on 24 March 2021 - 07:31 AM, said:

It was sarcasm (You could simply direct the other player to the link not me.) I ve seen the list and I dont like it.

right now when I look at the list I see way more weapons and playstyles being viable than the current MPL/ERPPC/UAC5/UAC10 quartet. What don't you like about it, specifically?

[flavdyram]

Please stop trying to kill Mechwarrior online and any attempts by the passionate community to revive it.
Why its not easy to understand?
iTs an online multiplayer pvp game, a genre of games that is in dire need of attention like the gulag is trying to provide.
Weapons balance really impact casuals players, because promote differents playstyle with all the weapons (if balanced correctly IN A VISION OF A PVP GAME, not tabletop simulator).
Comp players can just continune to use their meta builds on whatever the meta is, thats not a big deal for them besides making the meta more various (I Think).
To fullfil your tabletop simulator needs it is not necessary to disturb this title that its not made for that purpose.

You do not want to have new content? New Mechs? Better QOL?
Then trust them, they have a deep knowledge of the game and it mechanics BECAUSE they are competitive players and they want the same things as everyone: MWO Alive

Edited by d y r a m, 24 March 2021 - 09:53 AM.

[JimHatama]

These changes are not balance. This are changes to game vision. Buffing most weapons and mech mobility is not balancing act, its just some guys want to see faster paced game. And im against it too.

[pattonesque]

JimHatama, on 25 March 2021 - 03:25 PM, said:

These changes are not balance. This are changes to game vision. Buffing most weapons and mech mobility is not balancing act, its just some guys want to see faster paced game. And im against it too.

the changes, taken in total (the listed weapons changes, potential mobility changes, and rescales) are specifically intended to increase Time To Kill. This would result in a slower-paced game.