117 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

John Bronco, on 16 April 2021 - 07:39 AM, said:

I've seen you frequently running a 4xSSRM6 Dervish.

Sure in FP, because I was forced to as I didn't have access to C-SSRM.

[John Bronco]

Ah, so you wish to know when the last time they were seen in the game, excluding the times they were seen.

[Nightbird]

John Bronco, on 16 April 2021 - 07:51 AM, said:

Ah, so you wish to know when the last time they were seen in the game, excluding the times they were seen.

QP... since no one cares about FP balance. This patch will absolute wreck things in FP, expect rolls the likes not seen for 3 years.

Edited by Nightbird, 16 April 2021 - 08:01 AM.

[Mal Bolge]

lonepeon, on 16 April 2021 - 04:07 AM, said:

Its completely pointless to do a test on the testing ground when SSRM have better performance spike on a live environnement whereas.every other weapons are at their best on the testing ground.

Most of all the other changes the cauldron proposes makes sense, it was just this one that didn't. Why nerf an under performing weapon that is rarely seen in matches, and has many limitations and hard counters? It just doesn't make any sense. But I got my answer from the main thread. The cauldron group seem to have some irrational hatred against lock-on weapons in general, and would rather nerf them all to the ground. So I guess this is just the first step. At least that kind of honesty I can respect.

It's a shame they can't be objective about this. Lock-on weapons are a good tool for people with disabilities that hampers their aim. It gives them the opportunity to still play the game and make a meaningful contribution to their team. Nerfing something into the ground just because they don't like it really isn't good balance in my book, but that's just my opinion, and I'm just an average player at best.

Edited for clarity as someone got personally offended and didn't understand that it wasn't about them.

Edited by Mal Nilsum, 17 April 2021 - 12:58 AM.

[lonepeon]

Nightbird, on 16 April 2021 - 07:25 AM, said:

Just try to remember the last time you saw a IS mech running streak 6s. If they are so powerful, why do nobody use them?

• I dont know nor care about % of the MWO pop being biased about the game.
  
• Overblown reputation of weaponry when there is a cult worshipping whatever comp player say and gatekeeping information when said intel dont come from comp players(from my limited experience with mwo community).
  
• Comp player worth their damn are completely biased around the most easiest and the most effective weaponry and tactics for kills with few other sets of tactics to fall back when needed,even if said weaponry is only 5% better overall than the remainder for its job( i'm completely ignorant about MWO comps but its the same everywhere anyway).QP is completely biased around farming matchscore,getting efficient kill is bad for your MS, bap+tag+SSRM is better and safer on QP than SPL and SML and other very short range laser and MGs, with IS SSRM6 you only need almost half the time of activity than C-SSRM6 to have equalish end damage.
  
• Read my previous post on its entirety or ask comp player to break it down for you.

Now lets do some thought experiment with SSRM6((being clan or IS is irrelevant for the following).
Currently with quad SSRM6 (48 alpha dmg) you can insta gib a white CT locust.What is the current EHP of the locust's torso?
What % of damage was atleast focused on the locust's CT from the total output of the 48 alpha dmg?
Now transpose the % of focused damage from the last question into assaut's firepower alpha range and what is the result vs different weight classes?With an unskilled MAD-4HP you can alpha 7 SSRM without shutting down from 0% so 84 alpha damage.
Now reread what a i wrote on what is required to have the SSRM best performance based on its alpha.
Now try to think what would be the outcome at ~50 ish meter and below if people would be able to focus their damage more consistently on component by skill while having the torso movement completely decoupled from the arms crosshair and arms movement for allowing lockon on the edge of the screen.

Mal Nilsum, on 16 April 2021 - 09:45 AM, said:

Most of all the other changes the cauldron proposes makes sense, it was just this one that didn't. Why nerf an under performing weapon that is rarely seen in matches, and has many limitations and hard counters? It just doesn't make any sense. But I got my answer from the main thread. You seem to have some irrational hatred against lock-on weapons in general, and would rather nerf them all to the ground. So I guess this is just the first step. At least that kind of honesty I can respect.

It's a shame you can't be objective about this. Lock-on weapons are a good tool for people with disabilities that hampers their aim. It gives them the opportunity to still play the game and make a meaningful contribution to their team. Nerfing something into the ground just because you don't like it really isn't good balance in my book, but that's just my opinion, and I'm just an average player at best.

On steam forum i was a noob speaking out of its rear then i became a noob who cant even aim and here i'am a lockon hater lmao.... Can you, normies, be consistent with yourselves please?! Btw my first name is Honest and my name is Objective, thing you would understand if you are remotely objective yourself(your bias speak for itself).I grinded my PSR to full T1 with SSRMs while being an account stabilized at T3.20, i have 650 games with quad CSSRM6 and 50 games with a mix of quad ISSRM6 or double ISSRM6+double ISSRM4 or quad SSRM4 (both with medium mechs).I have experience of one shot from quad SSRM6 on both side of the spectrum and your attempt at countering Data was completely biased for the reason i explained(Data didnt explain anything,but me playing the informative guy despite not being a cauldron member get this treatment which is completely ridiculous).

This is my last post on this forum, i have played enough the brown sea game last year on my previous main game by completely dominating the enter PvP subforum by knowledge and XP from a PvP MMORPG game,a game way faster paced and with harder visual feedback than you can get on MWO visual feedback.Mwo is slow AF by comparison despite being a shooter(and yeah i'm just a casual on MWO).

[Nightbird]

I tried to understand your post, but I just can't. Sorry.

[Mal Bolge]

lonepeon, on 16 April 2021 - 01:41 PM, said:

On steam forum i was a noob speaking out of its rear then i became a noob who cant even aim and here i'am a lockon hater lmao.... Can you, normies, be consistent with yourselves please?! Btw my first name is Honest and my name is Objective, thing you would understand if you are remotely objective yourself(your bias speak for itself).I grinded my PSR to full T1 with SSRMs while being an account stabilized at T3.20, i have 650 games with quad CSSRM6 and 50 games with a mix of quad ISSRM6 or double ISSRM6+double ISSRM4 or quad SSRM4 (both with medium mechs).I have experience of one shot from quad SSRM6 on both side of the spectrum and your attempt at countering Data was completely biased for the reason i explained(Data didnt explain anything,but me playing the informative guy despite not being a cauldron member get this treatment which is completely ridiculous).

What a way to win an argument. Beats both reason and logic. And at the same time eliminates every last shred of professionalism.

[Davegt27]

lonepeon, on 16 April 2021 - 01:41 PM, said:

• I dont know nor care about % of the MWO pop being biased about the game.
  
• Overblown reputation of weaponry when there is a cult worshipping whatever comp player say and gatekeeping information when said intel dont come from comp players(from my limited experience with mwo community).
  
• Comp player worth their damn are completely biased around the most easiest and the most effective weaponry and tactics for kills with few other sets of tactics to fall back when needed,even if said weaponry is only 5% better overall than the remainder for its job( i'm completely ignorant about MWO comps but its the same everywhere anyway).QP is completely biased around farming matchscore,getting efficient kill is bad for your MS, bap+tag+SSRM is better and safer on QP than SPL and SML and other very short range laser and MGs, with IS SSRM6 you only need almost half the time of activity than C-SSRM6 to have equalish end damage.
  
• Read my previous post on its entirety or ask comp player to break it down for you.

Now lets do some thought experiment with SSRM6((being clan or IS is irrelevant for the following).
Currently with quad SSRM6 (48 alpha dmg) you can insta gib a white CT locust.What is the current EHP of the locust's torso?
What % of damage was atleast focused on the locust's CT from the total output of the 48 alpha dmg?
Now transpose the % of focused damage from the last question into assaut's firepower alpha range and what is the result vs different weight classes?With an unskilled MAD-4HP you can alpha 7 SSRM without shutting down from 0% so 84 alpha damage.
Now reread what a i wrote on what is required to have the SSRM best performance based on its alpha.
Now try to think what would be the outcome at ~50 ish meter and below if people would be able to focus their damage more consistently on component by skill while having the torso movement completely decoupled from the arms crosshair and arms movement for allowing lockon on the edge of the screen.




On steam forum i was a noob speaking out of its rear then i became a noob who cant even aim and here i'am a lockon hater lmao.... Can you, normies, be consistent with yourselves please?! Btw my first name is Honest and my name is Objective, thing you would understand if you are remotely objective yourself(your bias speak for itself).I grinded my PSR to full T1 with SSRMs while being an account stabilized at T3.20, i have 650 games with quad CSSRM6 and 50 games with a mix of quad ISSRM6 or double ISSRM6+double ISSRM4 or quad SSRM4 (both with medium mechs).I have experience of one shot from quad SSRM6 on both side of the spectrum and your attempt at countering Data was completely biased for the reason i explained(Data didnt explain anything,but me playing the informative guy despite not being a cauldron member get this treatment which is completely ridiculous).

This is my last post on this forum, i have played enough the brown sea game last year on my previous main game by completely dominating the enter PvP subforum by knowledge and XP from a PvP MMORPG game,a game way faster paced and with harder visual feedback than you can get on MWO visual feedback.Mwo is slow AF by comparison despite being a shooter(and yeah i'm just a casual on MWO).

I just looked at my stats and I have 3,020 drops using CS-SRM6s

I am not sure what your trying to say but regardless
streaks are going to get nerfed so you might as well just suck it up

[AncientRaig]

The idea that an S-SRM is stronger than a C-ERPPC in this game is... hilarious to me. Maybe in FP, where it can counter certain strategies, but FP is an all but dead gamemode and it should not be the focus of weapon balance. Unless you're in a Locust, Flea, or something equally fragile, seeing a streak boat on the other team is seeing a free kill unless you're already opened up yourself. And even if you are in a Locust or Flea, unless PGI can be bothered to fix the netcode you can still outrun your own hitbox often enough to at least soften up the impact.

[Dogstar]

Okay so I ran a streak boat assault mech for a few matches, not really enough for a proper sample so this is anecdotal.

I don't have the suggested Marauder II mech so I substituted the only mech I do have with 7 missile hardpoints - a Cyclops, CP-10-Q to be precise. Here's the build code from the game:

Ac6020^1|i^|i^|Nd|W@p61|W@|W@|W@|=@q61|W@|W@|W@|Z<2rl0|i^|i^|]O|lOsl0|i^|i^|]O|lOt<1|]O|]Ou<1|]O|]OvB0|]Ow606060

Because I knew I'd have to hold the lock and to manage the heat I put the streaks on chainfire. This had the effect of making firing them similar to using what I'd imagine a RAC20 would be like - there was a short build up and then it chuntered out 'shells' at a slow but steady pace doing significant damage and generally causing pilots to back off - very few pilots can manage to deal with constant explosions in their face.

Like using a RAC switching targets was a pain, even with a tag and probe locks were taking a few seconds, also like RACs the heat was awful, even with 16 double heatsinks and using chainfire I was overheating after what felt like only a few seconds (was almost certainly longer but felt very quick). Firing in two batches of three was worse.

Also like RACs the facetime was constant - you can't shoot without directly facing your target and the ghost heat penalty makes it difficult to fire a bunch and twist away.

Overall the experience was not as bad as I thought it would be, with 7 SSRM6 I could fire constantly which was certainly off-putting to many similarly skilled pilots. Being an assault meant I could weather some damage so on the good matches I did alright but on the poor matches it was very little damage done.

With the increased SSRM cooldown I think the same mech will run a lot cooler but chainfire might become a bad idea because there will probably be a few seconds gap between last and first. Torso twisting with SSRMs is also a problem because you lose your lock and the ghost heat penalty makes firing a lot of SSRMs at once very hot - not sure if it would cause a shutdown on that mech.

So overall I don't think the Cauldron changes to SSRMs will make much of a difference. Streaks will still be the least used weapon* and they will still require constant facetime and aiming at your target so cannot be classifed as a 'no skill auto aim' weapon. The only 'improvement' is that IS streak boats will run a bit cooler at a cost of DPS.

I think that if SSRMs are to be made equal to other weapon systems then they need to be significantly improved in some way



*There are only 5 SSRM builds (only of which is IS) on grimmechs but loads of SRM builds

[Ignatius Audene]

Ok got it. Since IS Ssrm6 got nerved, and cerppc, is mpl, uac10/5, ac2, lbx10 continue unchanged I am simply to potato to understand the meta.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 19 April 2021 - 12:46 PM.

[Dogstar]

First post Cauldron patch report with my totally un-meta 7xSSRM6 Cyclops...

...about the same really.

I can now fire all 7 SSRM6s without overheating, and in chainfire there's a tiny break after the seventh one before the first is ready again, heat was marginally more manageable too.

So streaks remain a relatively situational weapon, the cooldown nerf hasn't really made a huge difference, and streaks will probably keep their place as the least liked weapon of all.

Edited by Dogstar, 21 April 2021 - 03:03 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

might be worth looking back to old games and rethinking streaks. lock on times alone make them pointless vs a nice hard 1 shot alpha

[Alexandros]

You found PPCS/ Gauss to be annoying with the big CDs and trash talked through your streams (for the known streamers) and forums . Now it is the time of the people using streaks frequently to complain. I will politely ask for a revert of the changes cause this is outrageous. You found a weapon that you apparently have no idea how difficult is to handle (yes Im using the same quote like the "pros" use to us) you might laugh on this statement but streaks have their own way to be played effectively and that requires a good cooldown (like it was)


I ran a KTO-GB with 3 x SSRM6 + 2x SSRM2 /1x TAG/2x FLAMERS which was kicking *** and now became mediocre.

Edited by Alexandros, 21 April 2021 - 10:14 AM.

[Navid A1]

Dogstar, on 17 April 2021 - 12:00 AM, said:

Okay so I ran a streak boat assault mech for a few matches, not really enough for a proper sample so this is anecdotal.

I don't have the suggested Marauder II mech so I substituted the only mech I do have with 7 missile hardpoints - a Cyclops, CP-10-Q to be precise. Here's the build code from the game:

Ac6020^1|i^|i^|Nd|W@p61|W@|W@|W@|=@q61|W@|W@|W@|Z<2rl0|i^|i^|]O|lOsl0|i^|i^|]O|lOt<1|]O|]Ou<1|]O|]OvB0|]Ow606060

Because I knew I'd have to hold the lock and to manage the heat I put the streaks on chainfire. This had the effect of making firing them similar to using what I'd imagine a RAC20 would be like - there was a short build up and then it chuntered out 'shells' at a slow but steady pace doing significant damage and generally causing pilots to back off - very few pilots can manage to deal with constant explosions in their face.

Like using a RAC switching targets was a pain, even with a tag and probe locks were taking a few seconds, also like RACs the heat was awful, even with 16 double heatsinks and using chainfire I was overheating after what felt like only a few seconds (was almost certainly longer but felt very quick). Firing in two batches of three was worse.

Also like RACs the facetime was constant - you can't shoot without directly facing your target and the ghost heat penalty makes it difficult to fire a bunch and twist away.

Overall the experience was not as bad as I thought it would be, with 7 SSRM6 I could fire constantly which was certainly off-putting to many similarly skilled pilots. Being an assault meant I could weather some damage so on the good matches I did alright but on the poor matches it was very little damage done.

With the increased SSRM cooldown I think the same mech will run a lot cooler but chainfire might become a bad idea because there will probably be a few seconds gap between last and first. Torso twisting with SSRMs is also a problem because you lose your lock and the ghost heat penalty makes firing a lot of SSRMs at once very hot - not sure if it would cause a shutdown on that mech.

So overall I don't think the Cauldron changes to SSRMs will make much of a difference. Streaks will still be the least used weapon* and they will still require constant facetime and aiming at your target so cannot be classifed as a 'no skill auto aim' weapon. The only 'improvement' is that IS streak boats will run a bit cooler at a cost of DPS.

I think that if SSRMs are to be made equal to other weapon systems then they need to be significantly improved in some way



*There are only 5 SSRM builds (only of which is IS) on grimmechs but loads of SRM builds

Good review.

Our goal for streaks was to first control their damage output compared to normal SRMs, considering that they are fire and forget auto-aim weapons with 100% hit guarantee of the entire salvo... second was to prevent huge amount of streaks (mostly clan versions with longer range and mechs) from one-shotting lights and even bigger mechs with no chance of retreat.

For that we wanted to try and see how streaks would work if their salvo hit with a spread pattern rather than perfect tracking to each limb. However, implementing that system for SSRMs and have it work in short range had a few problems leading to your salvo not hitting at all. Our idea still needs a PGI engineer to implement which is currently not available.

The tweaks to streaks in the patch can be looked at as small adjustments to get us closer to the stated goal, until PGI can spare an engineer.

[Last Of The Brunnen-G]

D A T A, on 13 April 2021 - 10:53 AM, said:

your calculations are wrong, and spreading false informations

1) you are not taking into account IS better cooldown tree
2) you are not taking into account that most IS mechs that are good as STK boats have cooldown quirks (assassin 23, black jack 2 and kintaro 18 just to mention some of them, could add wolverine 7k)
3) you are not taking into account that clan streaks have less velocity, thus get farmed more by AMS, and post patch it will be super easy to run 1ams+ 0.5 tons of ammo on any light mech, in fact making vain to shoot stks at 400 meters
4) you are not taking into account that Damage per Heat on clan streaks has gone down BY A LOT, in fact reducing their potential to spam DPS, while IS mechs usually have some good heat quirks on top of the fact that IS stk 6 will have more damage per heat
In fact, if the amount of DHS contained into a mech remains the same, but the damage per heat goes down, the long term DPS potential is nerfed
I hope this helps

Mech quirks should never be considered when changing a weapon system. It's the other way around, first change the game mechanic, then the weapon systems, then the mech. If we change streaks and as a result some mechs with strong quirks get OP, change the mech quirks.

[Last Of The Brunnen-G]

Navid A1, on 21 April 2021 - 12:38 PM, said:

Good review.

Our goal for streaks was to first control their damage output compared to normal SRMs, considering that they are fire and forget auto-aim weapons with 100% hit guarantee of the entire salvo... second was to prevent huge amount of streaks (mostly clan versions with longer range and mechs) from one-shotting lights and even bigger mechs with no chance of retreat.

For that we wanted to try and see how streaks would work if their salvo hit with a spread pattern rather than perfect tracking to each limb. However, implementing that system for SSRMs and have it work in short range had a few problems leading to your salvo not hitting at all. Our idea still needs a PGI engineer to implement which is currently not available.

The tweaks to streaks in the patch can be looked at as small adjustments to get us closer to the stated goal, until PGI can spare an engineer.

The problem is that streaks are worse than normal srms in an open area and nearly unusable in an area with cover. Streaks don't have a 100% hit chance, they often hit obstacles and sometimes even friendly mechs. To make them special an viable the lock on time has to get decreased and the cone increased. AFTER that we could think about further adjustments. First make the changes with the biggest impact and then fine tune.

[Tomo Sukesada]

Navid A1, on 21 April 2021 - 12:38 PM, said:

Good review.

Our goal for streaks was to first control their damage output compared to normal SRMs, considering that they are fire and forget auto-aim weapons with 100% hit guarantee of the entire salvo... second was to prevent huge amount of streaks (mostly clan versions with longer range and mechs) from one-shotting lights and even bigger mechs with no chance of retreat.

For that we wanted to try and see how streaks would work if their salvo hit with a spread pattern rather than perfect tracking to each limb. However, implementing that system for SSRMs and have it work in short range had a few problems leading to your salvo not hitting at all. Our idea still needs a PGI engineer to implement which is currently not available.

The tweaks to streaks in the patch can be looked at as small adjustments to get us closer to the stated goal, until PGI can spare an engineer.

I just want to start with I really do appreciate the work you guys put into these changes.

That said, you can't really compare the damage output of SRMs to streaks due to the fact that streaks hit all over a mech where SRMs, based on their spread, can be applied to a more focused area (this is way better). The vast majority of players know that SRMs are almost always a better choice and you know this.

Secondly, I would hardly call a 25% reduction in damage per salvo, a small adjustment.

Lastly, I do like where you guys are going with adjusting the tracking of streaks, however, I think that any adjustments to damage should have been done after that change. Who knows how long it will take before a PGI engineer will be available? Until then, streaks will be in worse shape then they were prior to these changes.

Edited by Tomo Sukesada, 22 April 2021 - 06:54 AM.