354 replies to this topic

[byter75]

justcallme A S H, on 23 April 2021 - 05:13 AM, said:

You go after the Meds, where streaks are still devastatingly effective post patch just as they were prior - they just wont insta-gib a IS Med, it'll take 3 shots instead of 2. Odd occassions it might take 4.

Yup. Naturally, when securing the flanks you'll typically just try to take out any lights or mediums you come across. Though what proportion of the team typically are these mechs? How long does step 1 typically take before you should move onto step 2?

Edited by byter75, 23 April 2021 - 05:28 AM.

[Tomo Sukesada]

Y E O N N E, on 22 April 2021 - 05:45 PM, said:

I wouldn't call that a correction, just a difference of perspective. Also don't agree with your assessment, for two reasons:

1. Inner Sphere Streaks are exactly what you claim Streaks are not and worked well enough in this capacity to earn themselves a cool-down nerf

2. The extra range on Clan Streaks can keep you further out of harm's way, affording you the opportunity to "poke" from the sidelines of a brawl at over 400 meters away when fully skilled out.

What you will have a harder time doing is instantly deleting a Light 'Mech and then running away. Getting deleted by a wad of Streaks is never fun for the Light. Whose fun is more important? Both have to be considered.

There are plenty of weapons systems that allow hit and fade. You still have ATMs, MRMs, lasers, Gauss, and PPCs, all of which are hit-and-fade weapons with the appropriate volley size.

I do not disagree, they are (well now less so) excellent at killing lights and I understand the reasoning for the change. I just struggle to find a good reason to even consider them with almost all the alternative weapon systems being so much better. I guess that is my gripe. They were never in the meta conversation and are even in worse shape now. Mostly speaking of IS because I am unsure how the clan streaks combo nerf / buff will play out.

But at one time they were actually fun to use and I am hoping a future rework can bring back some of that. I am in no way asking for them to be OP, just to be competitive.

[MarsThunder]

Arty is now kind of a smoke grenade.
No complaints, just statement of fact.

[C337Skymaster]

Krasnopesky, on 23 April 2021 - 05:00 AM, said:

The problem isn't one-shotting Assaults, that was/is already done better with other weapons before and after the patch. Other combinations of weapons have higher alpha, for example; 5x Heavy Small Laser (HSL) + 10x ER Micro Laser (ERUL).

The problem is the large increase in burst DPS presented by Piranhas boating Micro Pulse Lasers (UPL). They can run up and shoot 3 to 4 times for a very large amount of damage, whereas the typical previous builds could not shoot as quickly, or would do it for less damage.

Below are some Piranha builds to compare. Note the alpha on UPL boats is usually lower, but the absolute DPS is very high.

15x UPL: https://mech.nav-alp...#556b4d25_PIR-2
5x HSL + 10x ERUL: https://mech.nav-alp...#f05504d8_PIR-2
5x SPL + 10x ERUL: https://mech.nav-alp...#b279c1e6_PIR-2
5x HSL + 4x ERUL + 6x MG: https://mech.nav-alp...1da923a3_PIR-CI
9x UPL + 6x MG: https://mech.nav-alp...db12abbd_PIR-CI
3x UPL + 12x MG: https://mech.nav-alp...#926846f3_PIR-1
12x HMG: https://mech.nav-alp...#136c1c8e_PIR-1

Currently a lot of us in The Cauldron are testing UPL to see if the problem is with the weapon itself or if the weapon in combination with just the Piranha is the problem. I have been testing: Viper 11x UPL, Black Lanner 10x UPL, Nova 15x UPL, Gargoyle 16x UPL. These other Mechs feel very good to pilot, but I do not feel they are currently as big of a problem as the Piranha presents (and has presented in the past).

My solution: let us one-shot Piranhas with Streaks again. Everything else on that list has more armor and can survive the hit.

[Brauer]

C337Skymaster, on 23 April 2021 - 07:10 AM, said:

My solution: let us one-shot Piranhas with Streaks again. Everything else on that list has more armor and can survive the hit.

Basically anything in the game already one-shots Piranhas including streaks. If your streak boat can't one-shot a piranha then there's almost certainly an issue with your build.

[C337Skymaster]

Brauer, on 23 April 2021 - 08:15 AM, said:

Basically anything in the game already one-shots Piranhas including streaks. If your streak boat can't one-shot a piranha then there's almost certainly an issue with your build.

Yeah:my SSRM6's do 9 damage instead of 12 like they're supposed to...


EDIT: To be fair, in my TBR-D, I'm leading with the ERPPCs, and more often than not, it's the PPCs that get the kill, before the streaks even have a chance to lock on. But as I said above: the streaks get one shot, because the light has sped past me for cover, or done something else to break the streak lock, long before a second shot is possible.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 23 April 2021 - 10:45 AM.

[Mal Bolge]

justcallme A S H, on 23 April 2021 - 05:13 AM, said:

You go after the Meds, where streaks are still devastatingly effective post patch just as they were prior - they just wont insta-gib a IS Med, it'll take 3 shots instead of 2. Odd occassions it might take 4.

I have never been able to insta-gib a med, or light for that matter, with streaks, not even with troll builds boating 6+ SSRM6s firing all at once. Only time I've been able to insta-gib a light or medium is if they were already stripped for armor, in which case I would have done the same with any other weapon. The times I've killed fresh lights with streaks, have been when they rushed me in the open, and stayed to fight after they realized I had streaks, with no terrain available to break cover. But that's what I would call making a mistake. But even then it wasn't insta-gib, it takes several volleys, and I would have left the fight hurt too. But this scenario also applies to basically all the other weapon systems as well. And PPCs, dakkas or MPLS does the job more effectively than streaks.

[TK Romero]

I'm liking what I've seen so far with the weapon balance pass. I would have really loved to have seen the LPPC be able to fire 4 at a time before ghost heat kicks in. Though I'm sure people who know more than someone who plays the game casually now understands more of why it stuck to 3. Was really wanting the Panther Hero mech to sport two in each arm. The people involved in making this patch happen and PGI exceeded my expectations enough where I spent money on the game where I hadn't in maybe 2 years?

Thanks to everyone involved in bringing some life into the game. Also loving the Snub Nose PPC.

[Y E O N N E]

C337Skymaster, on 23 April 2021 - 10:30 AM, said:

But as I said above: the streaks get one shot, because the light has sped past me for cover, or done something else to break the streak lock, long before a second shot is possible.

Yes, and that one shot shouldn't delete the Light even if it connects. That result was the goal.

[justcallme A S H]

Mal Nilsum, on 23 April 2021 - 10:41 AM, said:

I have never been able to insta-gib a med, or light for that matter, with streaks, not even with troll builds boating 6+ SSRM6s firing all at once. Only time I've been able to insta-gib a light or medium is if they were already stripped for armor, in which case I would have done the same with any other weapon. The times I've killed fresh lights with streaks, have been when they rushed me in the open, and stayed to fight after they realized I had streaks, with no terrain available to break cover. But that's what I would call making a mistake. But even then it wasn't insta-gib, it takes several volleys, and I would have left the fight hurt too. But this scenario also applies to basically all the other weapon systems as well. And PPCs, dakkas or MPLS does the job more effectively than streaks.

6 SSRM6 isn't a troll build, it's the go-to, to delete.

The only lights thst survive a 6x Alpha are Wolfhound/Commando and select others. If you're not dead then you've taken enough damage they are utterly maimed. I've done it that many times over the years I'm not sure how you're unable to.

Dakka/MPL require aim and are not a 100% Auto-seeking hit. So if they are better it's because of skill not a auto-aim function.

[Mal Bolge]

justcallme A S H, on 23 April 2021 - 01:52 PM, said:

Dakka/MPL require aim and are not a 100% Auto-seeking hit. So if they are better it's because of skill not a auto-aim function.

Why should it matter to the light that gets killed exactly what killed him? They are just as dead no matter what. Makes no difference one way or the other.

[YueFei]

Mal Nilsum, on 23 April 2021 - 03:39 PM, said:

Why should it matter to the light that gets killed exactly what killed him? They are just as dead no matter what. Makes no difference one way or the other.

More options for counter-play. There's potential for mind-games / anticipation / timing jukes, because human reflexes aren't actually fast enough to shift aim in reaction to a light mech's movements. The light mech pilot could also perceive an opponent's aim point to know when they're starting to track / pulling lead, and based on experience of when enemies usually pull the trigger, time their juke at that moment.

I mean, I'm potato, so at my level of play, none of that comes into the equation, but for sure there are skilled enough players to pull that sort of thing off.

[Sereglach]

Finally got to play some matches yesterday and today. Honestly it felt great; and a lot of my less popular chassis and weapon choices felt great (except for my poor flamers). Now, guarantee me a Flamer fix in the May patch and I'll be happy to thank PGI with reopening my wallet.

This patch is what movement in the right direction feels like. Lets keep it up, PGI; and thank you to the Cauldron for putting in all the effort on this.

[Mal Bolge]

YueFei, on 23 April 2021 - 06:16 PM, said:

More options for counter-play. There's potential for mind-games / anticipation / timing jukes, because human reflexes aren't actually fast enough to shift aim in reaction to a light mech's movements. The light mech pilot could also perceive an opponent's aim point to know when they're starting to track / pulling lead, and based on experience of when enemies usually pull the trigger, time their juke at that moment.

Those are good points, but those options seem to mostly apply for the top players, like you said.

The options for counter-play against streaks are:

1. get info before you engage
2. stay out of range (300ish for range-skilled IS streaks)
3. use cover to break LOS, which will break lock-on
4. facehugging the streaker will also break lock-on
5. bring AMS, your own or others
6. bring ECM, your own or others (2 ECM will completely disable a streak boat)
7. bring stealth (stealth will also completely disable a streak boat)

The options for counter-play against streaks seem to be plenty and easier to accomplish, so they apply to average players as well.

But at the end of the day, as a light, it shouldn't really matter what killed you. You are still dead. Why would it matter if you got killed by PPC/gauss from 1 klick away, lasers or dakka to your face, or a missile volley, streaks or otherwise? The outcome is exactly the same, you don't get to continue playing this match.

[Y E O N N E]

Level of effort matters. If Weapon A requires more and more practiced skills to wield than Weapon B with the same efficacy, why would anybody bother to play with Weapon A except to be contrarian?

[C337Skymaster]

Y E O N N E, on 24 April 2021 - 07:54 AM, said:

Level of effort matters. If Weapon A requires more and more practiced skills to wield than Weapon B with the same efficacy, why would anybody bother to play with Weapon A except to be contrarian?

Level of effort with streaks is already actually extremely high. It takes a LONG time to establish a target lock, and the above-mentioned juking and twisting is often enough to prevent it, entirely, because every time the light pilot changes direction, the streak-boat has to start the lockon process nearly from scratch.

[Y E O N N E]

C337Skymaster, on 24 April 2021 - 12:49 PM, said:

Level of effort with streaks is already actually extremely high. It takes a LONG time to establish a target lock, and the above-mentioned juking and twisting is often enough to prevent it, entirely, because every time the light pilot changes direction, the streak-boat has to start the lockon process nearly from scratch.

Maybe, but the level of effort required to kill a Light with a PPC or similar is still higher or Streaks would not have become the de facto anti-Light weapon. The same process that jukes a lock also jukes the projectile, the difference is that there is significantly less impact from operator error because the computer aims the weapon after it is fired.

[Mal Bolge]

Y E O N N E, on 24 April 2021 - 07:54 AM, said:

Level of effort matters. If Weapon A requires more and more practiced skills to wield than Weapon B with the same efficacy, why would anybody bother to play with Weapon A except to be contrarian?

Ok, so here's the big question: Using your own example, if streaks were superior weapons, they would be used by everyone. Now since they are not used by everyone, and in fact they are rarely seen at all, we can draw the conclusion that they are inferior weapons. And since they are inferior weapons, given that they are not used by everyone, as per your example, why then make them out to be superior weapons that needs to be toned down?

To clarify: when it is claimed that streaks insta-gib lights and mediums, that they delete mechs, I take that to mean that they are superior. Personally I have never been able to insta-gib a light with streaks, and I have tried to replicate those claims both in live matches, and in the testing grounds. I even used a small laser to strip off all armor of the jenner, so that only structure remained. And even then, I needed 3 volleys of 3xSSRM6 on an assassin to kill it. Now I can only take your word that it is possible to insta-kill a light in one salvo, but so far I haven't been able to do it.

Edited by Mal Nilsum, 24 April 2021 - 01:18 PM.

[ErinaceusSwe]

A quick search found nothing so not sure if it's been mentioned before: the weapon description for Light PPCs still says that it has a 90m minimum range.
Also saw that the Decal "Number - 9" isn't in all caps like all other decals, I assume it was like that before But I hadn't noticed until now.

[Y E O N N E]

Mal Nilsum, on 24 April 2021 - 01:06 PM, said:

Ok, so here's the big question: Using your own example, if streaks were superior weapons, they would be used by everyone. Now since they are not used by everyone, and in fact they are rarely seen at all, we can draw the conclusion that they are inferior weapons. And since they are inferior weapons, given that they are not used by everyone, as per your example, why then make them out be superior weapons that needs to be toned down?

To clarify: when it is claimed that streaks insta-gib lights and mediums, that they delete mechs, I take that to mean that they are superior. Personally I have never been able to insta-gib a light with streaks, and I have tried to replicate those claims both in live matches, and in the testing grounds. I even used a small laser to strip off all armor of the jenner, so that only structure remained. And even then, I needed 3 volleys of 3xSSRM6 on an assassin to kill it. Now I can only take your word that it is possible to insta-kill a light in one salvo, but so far I haven't been able to do it.

Insta-gib has always been convenient hyperbole that is only somewhat true for Locusts, Fleas, and Piranhas, but they are effective enough that they will take most Lights out of a fight either through deterrence or crippling. Clan Streaks were good enough at this task to see use in competitive circles consistently and to the point where they were banned from use in certain formats. If you don't kill them, you are certainly removing limbs and the speed/firepower that go with them. Even Mediums like the Blackjack or Arctic Wolf get quickly gimped by Streaks to the arms.

And why doesn't everybody use them? There are way too many variables in this game for that to be an honest question. Most simply would be that some players don't enjoy lock-on weapons (i.e. me). Another reason could be that not everybody wants to go hunting Lights all the time because that's boring and because Lights are the least-played class in the game. Or maybe they are unsure how to build a 'Mech that can be good at both countering Lights and still useful in other ways (i.e. EmP's Huntsman with cERLL and SSRM4 in MWOWC2017). Not being good at their job could be a reason, but the history of the weapon does not support that and I would not believe it is the dominant reason.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 24 April 2021 - 01:24 PM.