22 replies to this topic

[Vincefeld]

Omnimech supposed to be fun customizable thing - like lego, but with mechs.
Quirks in mwo help underperforming non-meta mechs to be viable.
Yes there are clan mechs that are terrible now due to how much tech IS got, and some of them even heavily quirked, but even if you swap ONE pod you get nothing, good day, sir!

Keep in mind quirks must be well spread to avoid stacking similar stats in same weapon category and breaking game.

[FupDup]

Vincefeld, on 25 April 2021 - 10:47 AM, said:

Keep in mind quirks must be well spread to avoid stacking similar stats in same weapon category and breaking game.

That's probably a part of why PGI went in the SO8 direction in the first place.

My own opinion is that a blend of both types (pod and SO8) is necessary. I think that PGI currently leans way too heavily on SO8 but that doesn't mean we should do away with them.

SO8 can, if done effectively (keyword), inspire people to try pod combinations that would otherwise be useless. And it can also be a fun minigame to try and find a build that makes good use of the set quirks while still being viable in battle. Otherwise it often just devolves into picking as many energy hardpoints (or ballistics, if assault mech) as possible.

Edited by FupDup, 25 April 2021 - 10:54 AM.

[w0qj]

How about Set-of-6 to enjoy the full OmniMech set bonuses?
ie: You can swap out up to 2 of the 8 parts like a lego set, and still enjoy the full OmniMech set bonuses!
Surely this would stimulate sales of Clan Wat I / II / III !


I have no idea what the Gulag/Cauldron thinks of this proposal though, as this directly relate to the upcoming Quirk Pass patch that they are working on!

Edited by w0qj, 25 April 2021 - 11:52 AM.

[Vincefeld]

w0qj, on 25 April 2021 - 11:44 AM, said:

How about Set-of-6 to enjoy the full OmniMech set bonuses?
ie: You can swap out up to 2 of the 8 parts like a lego set, and still enjoy the full OmniMech set bonuses!
Surely this would stimulate sales of Clan Wat I / II / III !


I have no idea what the Gulag/Cauldron thinks of this proposal though, as this directly relate to the upcoming Quirk Pass patch that they are working on!

Set of 6 sounds much better than set 8. Theres a lot of mechs which become viable if you swap 2 pods for something else.
And honestly all ECM mechs tied to their ECM pod and theres no reason to go without it, unless chassis is THAT GODLY that it ourperforms even without ECM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

At 6 the "set" aspect would be essentially pointless, the vast majority of omni builds can be done with only 1-2 swapped pods.

[FupDup]

w0qj, on 25 April 2021 - 11:44 AM, said:

How about Set-of-6 to enjoy the full OmniMech set bonuses?
ie: You can swap out up to 2 of the 8 parts like a lego set, and still enjoy the full OmniMech set bonuses!
Surely this would stimulate sales of Clan Wat I / II / III !

That would be massively OP because usually all it takes to make a bad set into a meta set is one or two swaps. For example you'd be letting the Hellbringer Virago benefit from 10% energy heat and 10% ER laser range even while using the Prime LT and HBR-A head for maximum high mounted hardpoints.

The point of SO8 is to try to make normally bad combinations actually useful, but you'd be turning them into a buff for already powerful builds (which would result in subsequent nerfs).

[cougurt]

i think the omnimech quirk system is perfectly fine, we just need a quirk balance pass. there are a fair amount of omnis that could use more/better quirks, and most SO8 bonuses aren't even remotely worth building around.

[justcallme A S H]

So8 buffs mechs who's 8 omni configuration is usually pretty bad.

There is no plan from Cauldron to change it. We do have plans to add more So8 quirks and also omnipod ones too.

[LT. HARDCASE]

The actual problem I see with the current implementation of 'Set of 8', is that said quirks are geared toward the stock weapon loadouts, instead of generic quirks for the stock hardpoints themselves. If you want to push people to stock omnipods, don't also force them toward stock builds, that's double tax.

This is imminently an issue for the bad omnimechs. The Ice Ferret Prime is a great example, With its 9t of useable pod space at full armor and a paltry 1M + 2E of pew pew. All it has by way of useable weapon quirks is -15% Energy Heat, +10% ER PPC Velocity, and a Set of 8 add of +10% PPC Range.

Why would you ever So8 on this mech, to shoot one ER PPC for an entire match? The (not set of 8) Energy Heat quirk pretty much begs you to instead throw on the P RA and P RT for 3 more E hardpoints. Now you run MPLs or HMLs and actually be worth a dang. Set of 8 defeated.

[justcallme A S H]

Some of the lore type players love running stock loadouts for their 20years if Battletech experience etc.

Can't just ignore them. That is the purpose for them in the first place.

[Heavy Money]

Omnimechs are supposed to be flexible, and offer lots of different loadouts. There are a variety of reasons this doesn't currently work:

1) The current state of omnimechs is that you're best off using whatever combination of pods give you the best amount of hardpoints for boating one weapon type, usually energy but sometimes ballistic. For this reason, most omnimechs have 1 primary meta loadout. Some also have a So8 quirk that is strong enough to compete with a boated loadout, giving them two.

2) In an ideal world where all weapon types were equally worthwhile, there would be more boating meta loadouts per omni mech. You'd see an energy boat, ballistic boat, and missile boat version, plus whatever So8 variants happened to be good. But this doesn't happen because they don't necessarily have the same max number of hardpoints of different weapon types, and because some weapons just boat better than others.

3) The Omnipod systems naturally encourages mixed weapon loadouts, but these are bad. 6/0/0 is basically always better than 2/2/2. And even if you have 2/2/2, often it's better to run 2 big guns than mixed smaller guns (except on assaults, who can't fill their weight with only a couple weapons.)

4) If So8's were reviewed and upgraded, we could potentially see each omnimech with 1 meta loadout per variant, plus 1 meta loadout from boating a weapon type. This would be a big improvement.

5) The problem with 4 is that So8 loadouts are essentially pre-planned loadouts. As those quirks are chosen, you are dictating the loadout with usually very little wiggle room (perhaps swapping an AC10 for a LB10X.) So, if So8's were good, it would fulfill the spirit of an omnimech in the sense of having lots of loadouts, but its still going to break it in the sense that you don't have much control. It's not a modular system if the only time you want to break So8 is a single boating loadout per chassis.

6) If you increase the quirks on different omnipods, then it creates a balance nightmare that could easily have unforeseen consequences due to the number of variables. And still, you'll probably end up with a single best mixed pod loadout. You may give some choice like, do I want 9 energy hardpoints, or 8 and 10% CD? But at the end of the day, it will be very difficult to actually achieve a modular, lego style build experience.

7) If you do want a proper pod experience, the simplest way is to limit the quirks to the weapons in the pod itself. That way, they can be balanced against each other on their own, without creating a million intersecting variables. Do you choose the pod with 2 hardpoints, or with a single hardpoint and some coolodwn/heat/range quirks for that weapon only? Such quirks would need to be quite strong, and could even be weapon specific, with different amounts for different weapon sizes. Otherwise, you'd always choose them for running a small number of large weapons.

This would give a strong reason to do loadouts that aren't just boating, as you'd be making a tradeoff of less or mixed hardpoints for greater quirks. It would also incentivize mixed loadouts. Do you take the pod with 2 energy, or 1 energy and 1 missile and quirk bonuses for both? This could offset the natural advantages of boating, and the natural disadvantages of managing mixed weapons.

This system would not necessarily mean you can't also do So8's to encourage specific variant loadouts that otherwise might not be worthwhile.

All of this will be very difficult to balance though. The easiest approach is just to buff So8's by whatever amount of necessary to make each variant viable. Given the fairly specific loadouts So8's are forced into, this shouldn't be too tough.

[LordNothing]

its quite simple omnipods with a lot of hard points get no weapon quirks, pods with few hardpoints get big weapon quirks. pods with no hardpoints get mech performance quirks (like agility and heat transfer). use structure and armor quirks to balance out mechs with bad hitboxes, these would also be inversely proportional to the weapon quirks so if you want survivability you need fewer hardpoints.

want to boat, forego weapon quirks.
want to move fast, give up boating.
want survivability, pack less firepower.
want good weapon quirks, use fewer, but more powerful weapons.

id also want more variation of fixed equipment from pod to pod, like how the kitfox has legs both with and without jump jets.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 April 2021 - 04:48 PM.

[LordNothing]

w0qj, on 25 April 2021 - 11:44 AM, said:

How about Set-of-6 to enjoy the full OmniMech set bonuses?
ie: You can swap out up to 2 of the 8 parts like a lego set, and still enjoy the full OmniMech set bonuses!
Surely this would stimulate sales of Clan Wat I / II / III !


I have no idea what the Gulag/Cauldron thinks of this proposal though, as this directly relate to the upcoming Quirk Pass patch that they are working on!

you can also do proportional quirks. the quirk values scale with number of stock pods you have installed. everything from 1/8 to full would be possible. this could co-exist with quirks specific to certain pods, it would simply replace set of 8. therefore the scenario you propose would scale the set of 8 quirk values by a 3/4.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 April 2021 - 04:53 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Clan Omni mechs are pretty powerful already. I do feel Omni mechs should get AMS with omnipods changed though.

[w0qj]

==>If Gulag/Cauldron is concerned about boating, then give us Set-of-7 Bonus!

1. Set-of-7 OmniMech 100% Set Bonus (proposed)
How about Set-of-7 to enjoy the full 100% of OmniMech set bonuses?
ie: You can swap out up to 1 of the 8 parts like a lego set, and still enjoy the full 100% of OmniMech set bonuses!

2. Set-of-6 OmniMech 50% Set Bonus (proposed) -- as first suggest by LordNothing elsewhere in this Forum
How about Set-of-7 to enjoy only 50% of OmniMech set bonuses?
Not sure if MWO game engine currently allow for this kind of 50% Set Bonus...

3. Set-of-5 OmniMech 0% Set Bonus (proposed)
If you swap out 3 or more torso/head/arm/leg then you rightly get 0% of OmniMech set bonus.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
3. My own personal reason for proposing Set-of-7 or Set-of-6 bonus is because AMS needed in my Timber Wolf Prime (swap 1 torso)!
Or I wish JumpJet(s) for my Kit Fox (swap 1 or 2 legs).
Or I wish to equip ECM module on my Kit Fox (swap only 1 arm).

==>If Gulag/Cauldron is concerned about boating, then give us Set-of-7 Bonus!
If my Timber Wolf Prime can never have AMS module without breaking the Set-of-8 OmniMech bonus, then it defeats the purpose of customizable OmniMech IMHO! No other Timber Wolf variant has AMS built-in, as an example.

Edited by w0qj, 25 April 2021 - 07:09 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Setting into So# means more coding - that ain't happening.All that there is so far:

• So8
  
• Omni pod specific.

Thus that is what we are working with.

Again So8 is only there to buff mechs when people want to run lore builds or stock hardpoints etc and not have them completely junk to create some interesting and fun options.

[Vincefeld]

Lore builds are stupid idea in MWO because its not turn based strategy.
Several weapon types hard to manage in real time and make them land on single target. Thats why the rest of players shoudnt suffer because of these lunatics. If they want to do it for fun, let them. But i dont know why anyone should expect stock lore loadouts to be good.

Omnipods supposed to be fun way to customize mech and not cowering to lose all bonuses to already underperforming chassis.
For example shadowcat is heavily undertonned and starved for hardpoints. Yes it has cooldown quirks and heat quriks, but you never getting them in real viable builds. Then we have vapor eagle which can run virtually any build in the game and has no quirks too.

Fair and balanced, just as PGI intended

[The6thMessenger]

I honestly don't see the big deal if the quirks are good either way. Just give them good omnipod quirks and So8 quirks (with consideration) and call it a day.

If you want better customization and going away from So8, you have to make the weapons themselves good on their own than relying on quirks, which I honestly prefer.

[lazorbeamz]

SO 8 forces you to use the "a bit of everything" builds that are extremely hard to use because they usually have 3+ weapon types.

[The6thMessenger]

It's basically just a battlemech that you can't put another engine in, and there, they usually build it with respect to quirks.

SO8, with consideration of hardpoints, just needs to have godquirks like IS does.