102 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Battlemaster56, on 25 May 2021 - 04:42 PM, said:

All I want is HAG's the HAG 20 be a very popular one since it allow alot clan mechs with big engines to carry a hard hitting weapon for 10 tons, and 30 for bigger mechs.

I mean...technically the UAC/10 has the same damage per ton as the HAG/20 if not more because the latter will probably have a longer cooldown time.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 25 May 2021 - 05:30 PM, said:

I mean...technically the UAC/10 has the same damage per ton as the HAG/20 if not more because the latter will probably have a longer cooldown time.

the HAG/20 gets a damage bonus at close range though so it should outdamage the UAC10 at close range. the HAG/20 should also have a longer max range than the UAC10

so overall the HAG20 is a more versatile weapon

but it would have gauss chargeup while the UAC10 wouldnt.

Edited by Khobai, 26 May 2021 - 07:46 AM.

[martian]

FupDup, on 25 May 2021 - 05:30 PM, said:

I mean...technically the UAC/10 has the same damage per ton as the HAG/20 if not more because the latter will probably have a longer cooldown time.

What about HAG-40? Daishi Alternate Configuration G carries a pair of those things ...

[Khobai]

If HAGs are added the HAG40 is likely to be ghostheated at a max of 1.

I cant imagine they would let you fire two at the same time because thats 80 damage.

HAGs do more damage up close and less damage far away. So they would probably fire in a cone like LBX to represent that. I imagine theyd be like LBX but with gauss chargeup. I suppose HAGs could also be hitscan like RACs and fire in a cone.

I dont think HAGs would really add anything game changing for clans though. Clan rotary autcannons would be a better addition for clans. As well as Light autocannons for IS since the current AC2 is a bit outdated at 6 tons.

Mech Rifles would be a good addition to the game as well to get some more lightweight ballistics into the game. Since one of the problems with ballistic weapons is they weigh a lot of tonnage. Mech rifles are a good compromise between machine guns and autocannons.

Edited by Khobai, 26 May 2021 - 07:51 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 26 May 2021 - 07:06 AM, said:

the HAG/20 gets a damage bonus at close range though so it should outdamage the UAC10 at close range. the HAG/20 should also have a longer max range than the UAC10

What is your source on that? I know HAGs in TT use the cluster hit table, meaning that like other spread weapons their damage would be more concentrated up close than at range, but that's not the same thing as doing more raw damage.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 26 May 2021 - 12:37 PM, said:

What is your source on that? I know HAGs in TT use the cluster hit table, meaning that like other spread weapons their damage would be more concentrated up close than at range, but that's not the same thing as doing more raw damage.

hags use the cluster hit table

but they get a +2 on the cluster hit table at short range

and they get a -2 on the cluster hit table at long range

and it is the same thing as doing more damage. because more projectiles hitting on the cluster table = more damage.

the easiest way to represent that in game would be a cone shaped firing pattern similar to LBX. that would make hags more accurate at close range and less accurate at long range.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2021 - 04:28 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 May 2021 - 04:24 AM, said:

and it is the same thing as doing more damage.

No it's not. Weapons that deal more damage in short range are like the SNPPC, HGR, or VSPL.

And I still think that making HAGs work like LBX is bad because:

1. Every description of the weapon talks about stuff like "rapid fire" and "Rotary Gauss." If they were meant to be a Gauss LBX, they would have specifically been described that way like how the Silver Bullet is (but they're not, because they're not).

2. We already have LBX. The whole point of new weapons should be to fill new roles rather than overlap with existing ones.


Making HAGs work like MRMs (stream-fire with spread) would accurately represent their "high rate of fire" fluff while also representing the cluster hit table, and would make them actually feel different from LBX.

Edited by FupDup, 27 May 2021 - 01:08 PM.

[Khobai]

yes its the same thing as doing more damage

the cluster hits table is the number of hits the weapon does

more hits = more damage

but yeah im not going to explain all the basic rules of battletech to you. you can read them yourself.

Quote

1. Every description of the weapon talks about stuff like "rapid fire" and "Rotary Gauss." If they were meant to be a Gauss LBX, they would have specifically been described that way like how the Silver Bullet is (but they're not, because they're not).

In battletech the HAG's rules work exactly the same as the silver bullet gauss. With the only difference being it gets +2 on the cluster hits table at short range and -2 on the cluster hits table at long range.

If its meant to be rapid fire or a rotary gauss then why doesnt it share the same rules as rotary autocannons? Oh right because its not supposed to work like a rotary autocannon at all. In fact it has absolutely nothing in common with rotary autocannons other than your questionably flawed interpretation of lore from sarna.net that doesnt come from any source book and conveniently ignores the game's actual rules.

Facts.

Quote

Making HAGs work like MRMs (stream-fire with spread) would accurately represent their "high rate of fire" fluff while also representing the cluster hit table, and would make them actually feel different from LBX.

No thats trash. That doesnt accurately represent the fact theyre better at close range than long range.

And streamfire weapons are a garbage fire. No thanks.

just add CRACs not this HAG crap.

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Making HAGs work like MRMs (stream-fire with spread) would accurately represent their "high rate of fire" fluff while also representing the cluster hit table, and would make them actually feel different from LBX.

Weve been over this. The clan version of MRMs is supposed to be ATMs and streak SRMs. ATMs and streak srms are supposed to be better than MRMs in nearly every way. Clan tech is supposed to be highly advanced. Not worse than draconis combine peasant missiles. But certain people have an irrational hatred of lockon weapons. Blame them for clan missile weapons sucking. They created the void.

If clans need their own version of MRMs its because their other missiles arnt performing like they should be.

Quote

2. We already have LBX. The whole point of new weapons should be to fill new roles rather than overlap with existing ones.

Then why not just add clan rotary ACs? derrrrr. thats the weapon you obviously really want. not HAGs. so why beat around the bush?

clan rotary ACs would be way better than HAGs. clan rotary ACs are amazing.

I mean if youre going to make HAGs work like rotary ACs just add clan rotary ACs. not some bastarized goofy version of it.

As Ive already said HAGs really dont add anything for clans and shouldnt be added. Clans would be better off with CRACs and protomech autocannons. Clans should get protomechs too that would be funny lol.

Theres better weapon candidates that can radically shake up the meta. HAGs arnt one of them.

Even chem lasers would be more interesting than HAGs. Since it would allow clans to run laser boats at way lower heat at the expense of having to take laser ammo lol.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2021 - 09:19 PM.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 27 May 2021 - 12:40 PM, said:

No it's not. Weapons that deal more damage in short range are like the SNPPC, HGR, or VSPL.

And I still think that making HAGs work like LBX is bad because:

1. Every description of the weapon talks about stuff like "rapid fire" and "Rotary Gauss." If they were meant to be a Gauss LBX, they would have specifically been described that way like how the Silver Bullet is (but they're not, because they're not).

2. We already have LBX. The whole point of new weapons should be to fill new roles rather than overlap with existing ones.


Making HAGs work like MRMs (stream-fire with spread) would accurately represent their "high rate of fire" fluff while also representing the cluster hit table, and would make them actually feel different from LBX.

i always thought of it as a gauss with burst fire. i think people got it mixed up with the sb gauss.

i think hags should fill the same role the hgauss fills for the inner sphere.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 May 2021 - 09:32 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Fluff-wise, HAGs described as being similar to RACs.

TT rules-wise, they do damage per hit location in units of 5. TT has no concept of time within an attack cycle, however, so there is zero distinction between a shotgun blast and a stream of rounds.

Against both of those inputs, the only implementation of HAGs that makes any sense in context of MWO is a charge-up weapon firing 4/6/8 rounds in a stream where each round does 5 points of damage with a minor radius of deviation. The balance would be tuned primarily using projectile velocity and volley delay (time between projectiles), with cooldown being secondary. There is absolutely a place for something that hits like a C-UAC/20 (or two) out to 720 meters with a 1500 m/s round. It is distinct from C-RACs because it is more front-loaded than C-RACs by a huge amount. Against Assault 'Mechs, it would very likely be mega OP.

[Meep Meep]

Y E O N N E, on 27 May 2021 - 10:29 PM, said:

There is absolutely a place for something that hits like a C-UAC/20 (or two) out to 720 meters with a 1500 m/s round.


Against Assault 'Mechs, it would very likely be mega OP.

One of these things is not like the other.

[Khobai]

Y E O N N E, on 27 May 2021 - 10:29 PM, said:

Fluff-wise, HAGs described as being similar to RACs.

no they arnt. youre referencing an unofficial article on sarna. cite one official source that compares them to rotary autocannons. there isnt one.

youre quoting unofficial sources as being official. fake news.

Quote

TT rules-wise, they do damage per hit location in units of 5. TT has no concept of time within an attack cycle, however, so there is zero distinction between a shotgun blast and a stream of rounds.

again rotary autocannons attack totally differently. theyre not at all comparable to rotary autocannons.

the weapons they most resemble are silver bullet gauss and LBX.

and the fact HAGs are more accurate up close and less accurate at long range implies that they spread in a cone pattern.

if the HAG does 5 damage increments then it would make sense to have it fire 5 1-damage projectiles at a time. So a HAG40 would fire x8 LBX-5 bursts. although x4 LBX-10 bursts would probably make more sense.

There is a place for HAGs as a better replacement for LBX because LBX quite frankly sucks compared to CUACs anyway. Hardly anyone uses LBX anymore you used to see LBX brawler builds but you never really see those anymore because CUAC5/10s are more favored for their medium to long range potential in the current meta. and the reality is they screwed up clan AC/LBX anyway by not being able to do ammo switching. they never got the weapon right anyway. A lot of it also has to do with the game's crit system which fails because structure gets destroyed faster than components which makes critting pointless.

HAGs could be the new LBX that actually doesnt suck. otherwise I dont see the point to them. adding CRACs would just be better.

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There is absolutely a place for something that hits like a C-UAC/20 (or two) out to 720 meters with a 1500 m/s round.

that already exists essentially, theyre called cuac5s

congrats you reinvented a weapon that already exists.

again HAGs have no real place in the game that doesnt overlap with existing weapons. just add CRACs instead. CRACs are easy to add because RACs are already in the game they just need to give clans their own versions that weigh 2 tons less.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2021 - 01:20 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 May 2021 - 08:23 PM, said:

If its meant to be rapid fire or a rotary gauss then why doesnt it share the same rules as rotary autocannons? Oh right because its not supposed to work like a rotary autocannon at all. In fact it has absolutely nothing in common with rotary autocannons other than your questionably flawed interpretation of lore from sarna.net that doesnt come from any source book and conveniently ignores the game's actual rules.

The interpretation comes from TechManual, and the reason it doesn't use RAC rules is because doing 40 damage to a single hitbox would be broken AF. They needed to make it split up damage into multiple locations to keep it balanced, and the cluster hits table is the way you do that in a board game.

Khobai, on 27 May 2021 - 08:23 PM, said:

No thats trash. That doesnt accurately represent the fact theyre better at close range than long range.

Yes it does, you can demo this in-game with MRMs. MRMs do a lot more concentrated damage up close than 500 meters away.

Khobai, on 27 May 2021 - 08:23 PM, said:

And streamfire weapons are a garbage fire. No thanks.

MRMs are good. UACs are good. Lasers are good (depending on the laser).

Khobai, on 27 May 2021 - 08:23 PM, said:

I mean if youre going to make HAGs work like rotary ACs just add clan rotary ACs. not some bastarized goofy version of it.

Rotary ACs are about continuous firing for high DPS and suppression/trolling. My suggested form of HAGs would be oriented around firing a strong upfront punch and then ducking back behind cover during the reload time. They do different things.

[FupDup]

Y E O N N E, on 27 May 2021 - 10:29 PM, said:

Fluff-wise, HAGs described as being similar to RACs.

TT rules-wise, they do damage per hit location in units of 5. TT has no concept of time within an attack cycle, however, so there is zero distinction between a shotgun blast and a stream of rounds.

Against both of those inputs, the only implementation of HAGs that makes any sense in context of MWO is a charge-up weapon firing 4/6/8 rounds in a stream where each round does 5 points of damage with a minor radius of deviation. The balance would be tuned primarily using projectile velocity and volley delay (time between projectiles), with cooldown being secondary. There is absolutely a place for something that hits like a C-UAC/20 (or two) out to 720 meters with a 1500 m/s round. It is distinct from C-RACs because it is more front-loaded than C-RACs by a huge amount. Against Assault 'Mechs, it would very likely be mega OP.

IMO I would split up HAGs into individual shells, i.e. 30 shells (1 damage each) for HAG/30. But yeah otherwise I agree.

[Khobai]

Quote

MRMs are good. UACs are good. Lasers are good (depending on the laser).

And Streaks and ATMs should be good too. But theyve been relegated to awfulness by people who hate lockon weapons.

the IS uses primitive weapons like MRMs while the clans use more advanced weapons like streaks and ATMs which are supposed to be better than MRMs but arnt.

Why not just fix the existing weapons instead of trying to add new weapons to do what the existing weapons should already do?

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 28 May 2021 - 03:00 AM, said:

The interpretation comes from TechManual, and the reason it doesn't use RAC rules is because doing 40 damage to a single hitbox would be broken AF. They needed to make it split up damage into multiple locations to keep it balanced, and the cluster hits table is the way you do that in a board game.

The BattleMech Manual also describes HAG as "hail of gauss slugs", where SB Gauss is "hypersonic buckshot".

Also, unless you declare a the attack to be "Flak", the HAG can use a targeting computer where the SB Gauss can't, implying that it's not a scattershot weapon.

There is zero evidence supporting HAGs = shotgun, multiple points of evidence supporting it as stream-fire.

TBQH, I would not recommend wasting your time with Khobai; his entire existence on this forum has been defined by being a tiny, contrarian, self-fellating voice in the corner proclaiming to know more than he demonstrates. You have nothing to gain, your time is worth more.

[FupDup]

Y E O N N E, on 28 May 2021 - 11:45 AM, said:

TBQH, I would not recommend wasting your time with Khobai; his entire existence on this forum has been defined by being a tiny, contrarian, self-fellating voice in the corner proclaiming to know more than he demonstrates. You have nothing to gain, your time is worth more.

He's just such a master of baiting that I can't help it sometimes.

[1453 R]

Thought the other main balancing factor on HAGs was that they had kinda hilariously low shots/ton. The HAG 40 gets three shots per ton of ammunition in Sarna. Which explains the catastrophic damage, when you're sending close to seven hundred pounds of metal downrange at railgun speeds. Like, this HAG 40 shot is firing several fridges at the enemy in rapid sequence.

People have never liked "your ammo is super limited" as a balance mechanism, but ammo exists for a reason in these games. Especially since the weapons themselves are also very large and stupid heavy by Clan tech standards, which severely limits what can use them.If ammunition is also in short supply, such that "a full combat loadout" would be four or five tons for a single weapon, then players have to either deal with a severe weight tax or be more choosy with their shots. Which means less overall HAG fire, and also something for the High Skill Skill Lords to crow about being better than everybody else than - "I haven't missed a single HAG shot in thirty games!" So a win for everybody.

[Wildstreak]

Finally tried a Rifle from MW5 and compiling a spreadsheet of all MW5 weapons.

They changed it from TT (not a complaint but an important note) in interesting ways.

- Does not do 'split' damage, TT is from what I have been told (Rifles came in after I had stopped playing TT) one damage value against Mechs, a different damage against non-Mechs. MW5 is listed as 1 flat damage value seemingly for everything.

- Unlike ACs, Heavy is the longest ranged one, Light the shortest. Heavy Rifle is also longer range than TT Long Range but not TT Extreme Range.

- heavier the rifle, faster the projectile speed.

- On the positive side Rifles put out good damage for their weight.

- Negatives include longer cooldown, some heat and low ammo per ton.

Chemical Lasers appear to use no ammo like they do in TT but have different stats.
Short Burst Lasers are described as being point defense weapons with their own unique stats.

Edited by Wildstreak, 29 May 2021 - 05:54 PM.

[Khobai]

Y E O N N E, on 28 May 2021 - 11:45 AM, said:

The BattleMech Manual also describes HAG as "hail of gauss slugs", where SB Gauss is "hypersonic buckshot".

Also, unless you declare a the attack to be "Flak", the HAG can use a targeting computer where the SB Gauss can't, implying that it's not a scattershot weapon.

There is zero evidence supporting HAGs = shotgun, multiple points of evidence supporting it as stream-fire.

TBQH, I would not recommend wasting your time with Khobai; his entire existence on this forum has been defined by being a tiny, contrarian, self-fellating voice in the corner proclaiming to know more than he demonstrates. You have nothing to gain, your time is worth more.

Good. I dont waste my time with you.