102 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

Meep Meep, on 21 May 2021 - 06:50 PM, said:

Most clam lights can already fit one or even two heavy weapons with a bit of backup energy with ease.

im quite fond of my dual uac5 fury. the rest tend to be slow lights, in the same caliber as the urbie. part of the reason that clans can pack those weapons better is they tend to be a ton lighter, and the less costly upgrades frees up slots. so the lacs have a bigger niche than the pacs would.

[FupDup]

Meep Meep, on 21 May 2021 - 06:50 PM, said:

Most clam lights can already fit one or even two heavy weapons with a bit of backup energy with ease.

They can fit it, yes, but their damage output won't be very impressive by any measure. PACs would have a greater damage-per-ton efficiency which might help bring their DPS up high enough that they can pose a threat.

[Wildstreak]

LordNothing, on 21 May 2021 - 09:43 PM, said:

rifles wont play as well with lights as lacs would, mostly because rifle ammo have only have 54 d/t across all sizes. you can fit the light rifle, but any saved tonnage will have to go towards ammo. only the light and medium rifles are lighter than the ac2. i think the damage rules on rifle is -3 damage against mech armor. so the light rifle can only damage open components. and the medium rifle is effectively a worse ac2. the heavy rifle will be completely outclassed by the ac5. the rifle makes sense in mw5 though because shooting non-mech vehicles is a big part of the game. they are going to need some major fudging in order to have a place in the game and not be instantly obsoleted.

keep in mind i am 100% for a weapons pack, so anything that fills a gap in the design space or provides a source of novelty should go in. rifles are just problematic being legacy tech.

Chem Lasers seem worse yet they are putting those in too.

[LordNothing]

Wildstreak, on 22 May 2021 - 06:50 AM, said:

Chem Lasers seem worse yet they are putting those in too.

im honestly scratching my head wondering why they picked those weapons for the mw5 dlc. you get better weapons from mods.

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 22 May 2021 - 05:27 PM, said:

im honestly scratching my head wondering why they picked those weapons for the mw5 dlc. you get better weapons from mods.

In MWO they'd make a lot of sense of sense because they'd give the Clans a low-heat energy option, but turning them into an IS weapon does seem pretty odd. If we get to change what tech base items belong to I demand Clan MRMs.

[Khobai]

dont need clan mrms if atms are fixed properly.

I would like to see the clan rotary autocannons though. theyre oddly missing.

I would also like to see some ballistic arcing weapons added to the game, something that lets you fire indirectly, but actually requires skill to aim. like the mech mortar or longtom. or the arrow IV could even work like a ballistic arcing weapon with very limited homing ability.

Edited by Khobai, 22 May 2021 - 06:58 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 22 May 2021 - 06:52 PM, said:

dont need clan mrms if atms are fixed properly.

ATMs are a lock-on weapon. MRMs are an aim-based weapon. They are not interchangeable.

[MrTBSC]

FupDup, on 23 May 2021 - 08:09 AM, said:

ATMs are a lock-on weapon. MRMs are an aim-based weapon. They are not interchangeable.

clan specificaly have streak MRMs and like clan streak LRMs the ruling is pure lock on, no dumbfire

i would agree that if ATMs are properly implemented there is no real need for Clan streak MRMs besides novelty (at worst they may however completely annihilate light mechs) ..


unrelated to the quote:

heck unless PGI gets to implement changeable ammotypes they should stay clear from trying to implement IS MMLs ... Clan ATMs are actualy supposed to be able to use up to 3 Ammotypes with various range and damage profiles and Mektek wasn´t able to include that in MW4 either (to be fair MW4 was already very limited in what you could do in the mechlab as well as how usefull each weapon was, ... like OOOOOOOF)


thing however with ATMs and MMLs is that because of the various ammunitiontypes in the TT that may bring its own can of worms ... cause unlike MW:O the one thing the Tabletop doesn´t need to consider is cooldown ...
and then there would be the question of if the system itself has a fixed cooldown or if the cooldown depends on the ammotype used f.e.

Edited by MrTBSC, 24 May 2021 - 04:53 AM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 23 May 2021 - 08:09 AM, said:

ATMs are a lock-on weapon. MRMs are an aim-based weapon. They are not interchangeable.

ATMs can be fired without a lock. I do it all the time. So I dont really understand your point.

And it would absolutely be possible to make ATMs fire exactly like MRMs without a lock and fire differently with a lock. Missiles can have different flight profiles depending if they have a lock or not.

MrTBSC, on 24 May 2021 - 02:40 AM, said:

Clan ATMs are actualy supposed to be able to use up to 3 Ammotypes

You could switch between ammo types immediately without any downside in battletech. So honestly the way MWO combines all three ATMs into one ammo type is functionally the same exact thing anyway.

I see no real difference between having three types of ammo and ammo switching and combining all three missiles into one missile with different damage depending on the range bracket. Having to constantly switch between ammo types would actually be completely convoluted while combining all the ammo types into one ammo type with variable damage actually makes far more sense.

The only difference between board game ATMs and MWO ATMs is that ATMs in the board game could be fired at point blank range and were actually somewhat useful at all ranges instead of being stupidly niche and limited to a very narrow range band.

Edited by Khobai, 24 May 2021 - 05:39 AM.

[MrTBSC]

Khobai, on 24 May 2021 - 05:28 AM, said:

ATMs can be fired without a lock. I do it all the time. So I dont really understand your point.

And it would absolutely be possible to make ATMs fire exactly like MRMs without a lock and fire differently with a lock. Missiles can have different flight profiles depending if they have a lock or not.



You could switch between ammo types immediately without any downside in battletech. So honestly the way MWO combines all three ATMs into one ammo type is functionally the same exact thing anyway.

I see no real difference between having three types of ammo and ammo switching and combining all three missiles into one missile with different damage depending on the range bracket. Having to constantly switch between ammo types would actually be completely convoluted while combining all the ammo types into one ammo type with variable damage actually makes far more sense.

The only difference between board game ATMs and MWO ATMs is that ATMs in the board game could be fired at point blank range and were actually somewhat useful at all ranges instead of being stupidly niche and limited to a very narrow range band.

2 out of the 3 Ammotypes have minrange, only the closerange HE warheads are without that limitation

https://www.sarna.ne...actical_Missile

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 24 May 2021 - 05:28 AM, said:

ATMs can be fired without a lock. I do it all the time. So I dont really understand your point.

They can be fired that way, yes, but they suck hard(er). Dumbfired ATMs don't hold a candle to dumbfired MRMs.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 24 May 2021 - 12:35 PM, said:

They can be fired that way, yes, but they suck hard(er). Dumbfired ATMs don't hold a candle to dumbfired MRMs.

yes but atms need a buff obviously.

they took away the only thing that was good about atms (3 damage) without giving them anything good in return.

so of course atms are underpowered now.

if they dont want atms to be strong lockon weapons, because for some dumb reason cauldron irrationally hates lockon weapons, they should make them work more similarly to mrms.

Edited by Khobai, 25 May 2021 - 12:09 AM.

[MrTBSC]

Khobai, on 25 May 2021 - 12:06 AM, said:

yes but atms need a buff obviously.

they took away the only thing that was good about atms (3 damage) without giving them anything good in return.

so of course atms are underpowered now.

if they dont want atms to be strong lockon weapons, because for some dumb reason cauldron irrationally hates lockon weapons, they should make them work more similarly to mrms.

i don´t think it´s about lock on (not entirely) but the problem with how strong the alpha even with spread is, get a succesful lock with both streaks and ATM up close it´s 99,99% guarantied damage with very little in the way for a mech to avoid it other than AMS, ecm/stealth would be easily countered with bap and/or Tag .. something like a splat dog (just as example) with 6 atm 3 would deal a 54 dmg alpha .... something some heavy balistic builds can only dream of .. and you are more likely to miss ...

not saying to not buff or pull back the changes in some way, just posting this for consideration ..
i personaly am open for other ways with ATMs that don´t neccesarily overlap with LRMs or/and SRMs too much in effectiveness ...

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 May 2021 - 12:06 AM, said:

yes but atms need a buff obviously.

they took away the only thing that was good about atms (3 damage) without giving them anything good in return.

so of course atms are underpowered now.

if they dont want atms to be strong lockon weapons, because for some dumb reason cauldron irrationally hates lockon weapons, they should make them work more similarly to mrms.

ATMs weren't very effective dumbfired even with the old 3 damage. They rely on the ability to track stuff.

Ultimately I'm not asking for ATMs to be turned into MRMs. I just want Clans to have a medium to long range missile option that doesn't lock on at all. Mech Mortars are a good canonically-friendly candidate for that (IS gets them too of course).

Edited by FupDup, 25 May 2021 - 02:55 AM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 25 May 2021 - 02:51 AM, said:

ATMs weren't very effective dumbfired even with the old 3 damage. They rely on the ability to track stuff.

Ultimately I'm not asking for ATMs to be turned into MRMs. I just want Clans to have a medium to long range missile option that doesn't lock on at all. Mech Mortars are a good canonically-friendly candidate for that (IS gets them too of course).

The reason Clan MRMs dont exist is because ATMs are supposed to be better than MRMs in pretty much every way. MRMs were basically a peasant weapon developed by the draconis combine to be dirt cheap because they couldnt afford the good missiles. While ATMs are the absolute pinnacle of clan missile technology and far more advanced than anything the IS has.

If being a lockon weapon is whats holding ATMs back from being good for balance reasons then maybe its time to change them so theyre not just a lockon weapon anymore. Thats all im saying. Maybe turning ATMs into a weapon that fires like MRMs without a lock or maybe has a different flight profile with a lock is a better alternative. If they could be fired like MRMs without a lock or like quasi-LRMs with a lock they would be versatile like theyre supposed to be. ATMs definitely need some changes though because the way they are now is completely stupid.

As for mech mortars, pretty sure theyre IS only. same with longtoms. clans use ARROW IV though. I do think the Naga should be added to the game along with arrow IV. While mech mortars and Longtom could be added for IS. ARROWIV could work like a V2 rocket, where you have to fire it with a ballistic arcing trajectory with limited or no guidance but would have a huge AOE explosion.

Edited by Khobai, 25 May 2021 - 12:15 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 May 2021 - 12:02 PM, said:

As for mech mortars, pretty sure theyre IS only.

Mech Mortars are available to the Clans too.

[Leone]

What!? Dishonourable! How can you call it combat if your not looking the enemy in the sensors as you ravage their inferior armour with your superior weaponry? Where's the sport?

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 25 May 2021 - 02:05 PM.

[Mechsniper]

X-Pulse lasers... mic drop..

[LordNothing]

Mechsniper, on 25 May 2021 - 03:15 PM, said:

X-Pulse lasers... mic drop..

yea i just came in here to see if anyone said this yet.

clans have 11 lasers and is have 9, is needs more lasers. xpluse, then throw in the bombast, blazer and give clans chem lasers. then both tech bases would have 14 even.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 May 2021 - 04:33 PM.

[Battlemaster56]

All I want is HAG's the HAG 20 be a very popular one since it allow alot clan mechs with big engines to carry a hard hitting weapon for 10 tons, and 30 for bigger mechs.