619 replies to this topic

[MechNexus]

So, to sum up: Backstab lights aren't OP, you're not respecting them. Get your back to a wall, alert your team when you get a whiff of any, and sweep their legs to make them a sitting duck. You wouldn't try and facetank a DHG fafnir or splat keeper/scorch/MCII-2 because you know they're gonna blow your face off, so don't give a piranha or flea free access to your back so they can crit out all your components.

[Leone]

Uhhh. Yes, yes I would. I believe you underestimate the lengths I will go to test my builds. A good face off is the best way to test a brawler, against another brawler.

~Leone.

[Wid1046]

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 June 2021 - 10:29 AM, said:

[redacted]

It took in both attempts something between 5.25 and 6.25 seconds to kill said Atlas under these almost absolute perfect conditions.

For comparison I then did the same for the Awesome on the map under the same conditions ... and astonishingly enough that assault lastet between 6 and 7 seconds before it died ... I had expected it to die faster than the Atlas

Since the main complain usually comes from Assault pilots: How many Assaults are there that would fall into that particular category in a reasonably well build Assault?

Well, it would appear that the actual situational constraints that lead to your described 5 second kill window include all the things I wrote as well as your additional constraint of having armor and structure of 70 or less.So it takes really close to absolute perfect conditions to achieve those 5 seconds you're trying to argue with.

[redacted]

I do not think that light mechs are overpowered, however to keep the arguments fair I should point out that there is a flaw in your test. The mechs on the testing grounds have absurd armor distribution which makes them die far faster from the front than is realistic and far slower from the back than is realistic. The Atlas has 28 back armor by default and the Awesome has an even more absurd 38. That's also why the Awesome took longer than the Atlas to die. The testing grounds can be a good way to compare the relative strength of loadouts versus one another, but should never be taken to be at all realistic versus what would happen in an actual match.

All that said, I still do not think that light mechs are overpowered; the test having a flaw doesn't mean that it somehow proves the opposite. As I said earlier, if light mechs were overpowered they'd be the most played weight class, not the least.

Edited by Wid1046, 10 June 2021 - 12:23 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

There's this strange dichotomy where people complain about OP lights, yet never switch to piloting said OP lights.

No one will get this reference, but Light Mechs are like playing Eldar in Dawn of War. No one played them because of the skill level and micromanaging required, but those who could were the best players in the game and Emperor help you if you pulled them in matchmaking.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Wid1046 said:

I do not think that light mechs are overpowered, however to keep the arguments fair I should point out that there is a flaw in your test.

It's not necessarily a "flaw" but one of things that are part of the constraints.

Wid1046 said:

The mechs on the testing grounds have absurd armor distribution which makes them die far faster from the front than is realistic and far slower from the back than is realistic.

I'm perfectly aware of that. That's why his additional constraint of structure plus armor had to be added to truly get to 5 seconds.

Wid1046 said:

The Atlas has 28 back armor by default and the Awesome has an even more absurd 38. That's also why the Awesome took longer than the Atlas to die. The testing grounds can be a good way to compare the relative strength of loadouts versus one another, but should never be taken to be at all realistic versus what would happen in an actual match.

So here's the problem: In an actual match on average I'm also not going to see ...

• a lone Assault mech standing perfectly still for 5 seconds while under fire
  
• the light - here the PIR-1 - being able to walk up into optimal weapon range for all its weapons without getting noticed
  
• the light then being able to stand still for the same amount of time

Wid1046 said:

All that said, I still do not think that light mechs are overpowered; the test having a flaw doesn't mean that it somehow proves the opposite.

I'm not even making a "definite" judgement on whether or not (some) Lights might be "overpowered" in relation to the average gamer who plays MW:O. I'm just looking at Khobai's claim about 5s kills and them occuring "a lot more than they should". I would like to see a more general proof for the 5s number itself and how often it happens across all (QP) games, because the most accessible test under super optimal conditions doesn't really lean towards that claim.

As a more anecdotal observation: I regularly take my PIR-1 with 12 machine guns and either 3 heavy small lasers or 3 micro pulse lasers into battle (some might even think almost exclusively) and while I occassionally come across a lone / left behind and stationary Assault where I could allow myself to consider the (for a light tactically stupid) idea of coming to a standstill myself before opening fire. But even in those very very rare situations I don't get too many cases where those mechs don't react within the first 2.5 seconds tops - unless its a disconnected pilot - and I simply can't kill them within that time window. Once they start moving they are forcing damage spread all over the upper torso due to the target mech's movement in addition to the swivels created by my attempts of countering their movement. Add to that my only average skill of maintaining aim on the initial zone and it's easy to see where this is going:

Even if nobody comes to help the poor Assault and if I also enter a stage of quasi-blind blood rage where I insist on going for the kill instead of retreating for the time being it then takes way more than 2.5 seconds to finish the job ... even when facing a (much) weaker pilot and / or one who deprived himself of a decent secondary armament for close range.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 10 June 2021 - 01:03 PM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

yeah.. several pages more of .. "stuff", and I'd like to repeat myself:

If you think it's OP, pilot it yourself.

overpowered MG-Piranha.. "plenty" of other mechs that "rely" on MGs. ..
'nuff said.

[Khobai]

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 June 2021 - 01:00 PM, said:

It's not necessarily a "flaw" but one of things that are part of the constraints.

I'm perfectly aware of that. That's why his additional constraint of structure plus armor had to be added to truly get to 5 seconds.

So here's the problem: In an actual match on average I'm also not going to see ...

• a lone Assault mech standing perfectly still for 5 seconds while under fire
  
• the light - here the PIR-1 - being able to walk up into optimal weapon range for all its weapons without getting noticed
  
• the light then being able to stand still for the same amount of time

I'm not even making a "definite" judgement on whether or not (some) Lights might be "overpowered" in relation to the average gamer who plays MW:O. I'm just looking at Khobai's claim about 5s kills and them occuring "a lot more than they should". I would like to see a more general proof for the 5s number itself and how often it happens across all (QP) games, because the most accessible test under super optimal conditions doesn't really lean towards that claim.







As a more anecdotal observation: I regularly take my PIR-1 with 12 machine guns and either 3 heavy small lasers or 3 micro pulse lasers into battle (some might even think almost exclusively) and while I occassionally come across a lone / left behind and stationary Assault where I could allow myself to consider the (for a light tactically stupid) idea of coming to a standstill myself before opening fire. But even in those very very rare situations I don't get too many cases where those mechs don't react within the first 2.5 seconds tops - unless its a disconnected pilot - and I simply can't kill them within that time window. Once they start moving they are forcing damage spread all over the upper torso due to the target mech's movement in addition to the swivels created by my attempts of countering their movement. Add to that my only average skill of maintaining aim on the initial zone and it's easy to see where this is going:

Even if nobody comes to help the poor Assault and if I also enter a stage of quasi-blind blood rage where I insist on going for the kill instead of retreating for the time being it then takes way more than 2.5 seconds to finish the job ... even when facing a (much) weaker pilot and / or one who deprived himself of a decent secondary armament for close range.

Yeah thats not a good test. The mechs in testing ground have way more armor on their backs than mechs in actual games. Like a lot more... and the armor/structure skill nodes are percentage based so they dont significantly increase back armor just structure.

Also piranhas dont normally attack fresh mechs. They look for mechs that have already been opened up so their machine guns can tear into their structure.

And yeah it usually takes about 5-6 seconds for a piranha to finish off an assault. It might take upto 8 seconds under less ideal circumstances. But the difference of a few seconds is entirely inconsequential to the point that Piranhas can be extremely dangerous mechs. Especially since many assault players have poor situational awareness and panic when attacked by lights which leads to them making mistakes like turning their backs to other enemies instead of turning their backs into a wall.

Furthermore I never said lights were overpowered. I simply said I can understand why some players are frustrated by them. And I said the problem lies with assaults being oversized and having bad pitch as well as players that abandon their slow assaults and create opportunities for lights to go after them. And streaks getting nerfed hasnt helped the situation for higher tier players either.

Edited by Khobai, 10 June 2021 - 01:30 PM.

[Capt Deadpool]

PeppaPig, on 10 June 2021 - 05:27 AM, said:

Yep, try staying with your side when you go 48 - 52 kp/h in an assault and everyone else runs off in the headless chicken nascar spiral.

There are quite literally an uncountable number of posts by veteran assault players stating that they have zero problem staying with their team in even the slowest of assaults. With time, knowledge develops of where terrain obstacles on maps exist, where there is good cover, where your team is likely headed, where engagements tend to take place, etc., so what you mention is generally an experience/skill problem.

If you have not developed this knowledge yet, take something faster until you feel more confident. And the clear upshot of assaults once you do have the knowledge is that top players wielding them literally decimate entire teams nearly single-handedly and can pull 1K damage games fairly consistently. So I don't have a great deal of sympathy for assault players who think that they do not need map knowledge to be successful and/or become emotional simply because they are killed by something they think they should be able to step on, as though speed/mobility should not be a counter to massive armor/firepower...

[justcallme A S H]

Captain Caveman DE, on 10 June 2021 - 07:31 AM, said:

so, which is it now? first, THE problem is the dreaded, feared by all, machinegun
now it's the pitch (which gets changed in the next patch I hear)
-make up your mind

Ah you sweet summer child. This is how discussions go with some users here.

You bring up a perfectly valid point to counter the nonsense they were saying. And as contrarian they can't have it so they'll pick something else to try and make your statement invalid and then something else and on and on it goes.

I mean I don't even know why people are using the MG as the reference point. It hasn't been scarry for years.


The real Danger Fish is the laser one. It is FAR FAR FAR more dangerous and what people should actually be worried about.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 10 June 2021 - 01:46 PM.

[JediPanther]

So how op are the other Jenners or Raven 4x? I know my Oxide is the most OP mech in the game and the entire opfor just quits when they find out i'm in my Oxide. Why does everyone run away from me? I just want to hug your mech with my 19000 mrm alpha. Not like it will hit your mech with all that spread.

[SockSlayer]

Assaults vs light dynamic usually means light has the advantage, unless the assault has enough turning speed to keep up. Not overpowered, but that depends on loadout. Slower lights won't have that untouchable speed.

[Wid1046]

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 June 2021 - 01:00 PM, said:

[redacted]
I'm not even making a "definite" judgement on whether or not (some) Lights might be "overpowered" in relation to the average gamer who plays MW:O. I'm just looking at Khobai's claim about 5s kills and them occuring "a lot more than they should". I would like to see a more general proof for the 5s number itself and how often it happens across all (QP) games, because the most accessible test under super optimal conditions doesn't really lean towards that claim.
[redacted]

And that of course would be fine if you presented it that way, however you presented your test as being close to 'absolute perfect conditions'. You even repeated that line and both bolded and underlined it each time.

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 June 2021 - 10:29 AM, said:

[redacted]
It took in both attempts something between 5.25 and 6.25 seconds to kill said Atlas under these almost absolute perfect conditions.
[redacted]
So it takes really close to absolute perfect conditions to achieve those 5 seconds you're trying to argue with.
[redacted]

I also just noticed that you used a bit of an odd setup in your test. It had only one laser versus the three that is both more common and that you say in your later post that you normally use. You do say what you use in the test which is good, but it also undermines your point that this is 'close to absolute perfect conditions'.

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 June 2021 - 10:29 AM, said:

[redacted]
Just for the "lulz" I just went into Tourmaline Desert testing grounds with a PIR-1 with two 12 machine guns + 1 laser (once a heavy small laser and once a micro pulse laser) and tested the "murder time" against the Atlas closest to the spawn point.
[redacted]

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 June 2021 - 01:00 PM, said:

[redacted]
As a more anecdotal observation: I regularly take my PIR-1 with 12 machine guns and either 3 heavy small lasers or 3 micro pulse lasers into battle (some might even think almost exclusively)
[redacted]

Again, I agree that lights are not over powered. They'd be the most played weight class if they were instead of the least played weight class. I just think that we should make sure that we argue in good faith. We don't need to pull an Ash, lol.

[RUSTY RASTIL]

___, on 09 June 2021 - 10:52 AM, said:

Lights are utter f*ckin bull sh*t... and that is a FACT. Every other game my mech is face down in the dirt, 30 seconds in, because some light mech zipped behind me and got me with a cheap one shot kill. Thanks, Cauldron.

It doesnt matter how little hp they have when they can run around the map twice before you can even blink. Sometimes a light will run past me and it wont even register... its simply WAY too fast.

Your eyes are getting slow old man, I am heavily unimpressed by lights speed, they are simply slow. Neither are my enemies when they just pown my locust in a single alpha, either ripping off my ******* or legs.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Khobai said:

Yeah thats not a good test.

Fun fact: Even if truly flawed that test is better and more substantial proof than your unsopported claims

Khobai said:

The mechs in testing ground have way more armor on their backs than mechs in actual games.

But in actual games we also do not see completely non-moving targets and non-moving lights that do the shooting. Now it's your turn to provide actual prove for you claim that the kill times that could not be achieved in that highly optimized scenario of Testing Grounds suddenly becomes achievable in actual games with those lower armor numbers but usually also higher structure points once all those other constraints are off the table as well.

Khobai said:

Like a lot more...

Which could indicate that players - particularly in QP - are using too little back armor ... which would be their own fault and not a problem created by allegedly "overpowered" light mechs. I do seem to recall that this has been mentioned before

Khobai said:

and the armor/structure skill nodes are percentage based so they dont significantly increase back armor just structure.

Which still is no proof that the combined armor + structure values of "actual games" suddenly make those 5s kills you claimed achievable in a general sense when compared to the Testing Ground scenario where only default armor but no skill trees are involved and perfect firing conditions where part of the test.

Khobai said:

Also piranhas dont normally attack fresh mechs.

Look who's trying to move goal posts now ~laugh~
Fun fact: non-fresh Piranhas die in less than a second quite regularly even without double gauss to the head.

Khobai said:

They look for mechs that have already been opened up so their machine guns can tear into their structure.

A situation where your allegedly "problematic" 5 seconds to kill are moot because opened up mechs die within 5 seconds of continued fire to pretty much any other mech as well.

Khobai said:

And yeah it usually takes about 5-6 seconds for a piranha to finish off an assault.

Are those numbers going to proven with anything?

Khobai said:

It might take upto 8 seconds under less ideal circumstances.

Or will we see proof for those numbers?

Khobai said:

But the difference of a few seconds is entirely inconsequential to the point that Piranhas can be extremely dangerous mechs.

Yet another attempt of moving goal post (remember me mentioning fallacies?). Now you're not even trying to argue your original point which was: A (light) mech that can kill an (undamaged, lone) assault in 5 seconds is a "problem" and as such are within the realm of "overpoweredness".

That certain PIR variants can be highly dangerous mechs in certain situations was never in doubt. Heck, the general stipulation should actually be that all lights can be seriously dangerous to any significantly less mobile mech (Assaults in particular).

Khobai said:

Especially since many assault players have poor situational awareness and panic when attacked by lights which leads to them making mistakes like turning their backs to other enemies instead of turning their backs into a wall.

And this circumstance makes lights in general or the PIR in particular "overpowered" or a "problem"?
That's more of your "logic" that doesn't really compute.

Khobai said:

Furthermore I never said lights were overpowered.

You certainly made the claim that a light that can kill an Assault in 5 seconds is "a problem" (and thus by implication "overpowered") and upon request to specify which light can do so explicitly named the PIR-1.
Now - along with moving goal posts - you're straight up lying in an attempt to deflect.

Khobai said:

I simply said I can understand why some players are frustrated by them. And I said the problem lies with assaults being oversized and having bad pitch as well as players that abandon their slow assaults and create opportunities for lights to go after them. And streaks getting nerfed hasnt helped the situation for higher tier players either.

That's most definitely not what you said and what I questioned you upon.

But as fun as this exercise was: I'm done here now (with you) because it has become very obvious (again) how intellectually dishonest you are and how little proof you are willing to provide to substantiate your claims. Thanks for playing.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 10 June 2021 - 02:20 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Wid1046 said:

And that of course would be fine if you presented it that way, however you presented your test as being close to 'absolute perfect conditions'.

Of course, because those described conditions actually are close to absolte perfect conditions because the only remaining variable is the difference in armor + structure (where higher armor values in Testing Grounds are somewhat off-set by armor and structure bonuses from skill trees in actual gameplay).

Wid1046 said:

You even repeated that line and both bolded and underlined it each time.

And with good reason

Wid1046 said:

I also just noticed that you used a bit of an odd setup in your test.

Then you obviously failed to properly follow the discussion
Because ...

Wid1046 said:

It had only one laser versus the three that is both more common and that you say in your later post that you normally use.

...Khobai explicitly wrote that a "standard PIR-1 with 12 machine guns + 1 laser" could do those 5 second kills after I asked him which light (variant and configuration) against which mech from which angle of attack he was talking about. So I took such a "standard" (actually non-standard) PIR-1 and did that test.

Wid1046 said:

You do say what you use in the test which is good, but it also undermines your point that this is 'close to absolute perfect conditions'.

No, it doesn't undermine that at all, because the test was directly aimed at Khobai's claims in his response to my questions (which he tried to handwave away and didn't provide any proof for). Immobile targets and aggressor's in a scenario with the proposed loadout at optimum range in an environment that knows no ping lag or desync is close to absolute perfect because it reduces the entire test to that one particular variable: back armor -> default armor with default quirks vs. non-default armor with default quirks plus whatever bonuses you have on armor and structure via skill points.

Wid1046 said:

Again, I agree that lights are not over powered. They'd be the most played weight class if they were instead of the least played weight class. I just think that we should make sure that we argue in good faith.

The problem is: Khobai is not arguing in good faith.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 10 June 2021 - 02:20 PM.

[1453 R]

I think the phrase "Khobai is not arguing in good faith" should be, like...an emote slogan banner thing we can just paste into threads. I've been back for barely over a month and I've already picked up on that real hard.

Anyways.

Yes, a Piranha can absolutely chew the *** off of an exposed assault 'Mech. other light 'Mechs can similarly cause a lot of trouble if given the chance. But that's the key - if given the chance.

A whole lot has to go right all in sequence for a light 'Mech to score a real tear. The enemy team has to spread out and expose their butts in the first place, put themselves in positions where they can't easily support each other. The enemy team has to be comprised primarily of terrible shots and/or people who freeze or panic on seeing a light 'Mech - that is to say, people who do not simply shoot the little bastids and be done with it.

Furthermore, your own-assed team has to be pretty aggressive and engage the enemy firmly, pin them down in a fracas that allows you to maneuver around and find isolated butts to chew on - if your team is chickendicking behind rocks all game because this is MWO and everybody chickendicks behind rocks all game instead of bringing fire and devastation to their enemy, you'll often be the first red box that pops up and you'll be burned down because nothing's distracting the enemy from your anklebiter self.

Then you, yourself, have to either be quite good at high-speed cruise-by shots with SRMs, or if using a direct-fire setup you have to find a butt that doesn't turn away from you for long enough to chew through it. either way, you have to actually be good enough at maneuvering and staying out of firing arcs to exploit the situation wherein the enemy team is spread out and overexposed, reluctant to target and damage light 'Mechs, and is firmly engaged by your team to the point where they can't easily break off and deal with you.

If all of that happens in a match? Congrats! You're likely gonna feel like the Assassin King, sprinting around and dropping muhfuggers like crazy because the whole-assed game lined up to hand you those fat butts on a platter. It's an absolutely exultant rush, knowing that you have become the Blade in the Dark that ends the lives of your enemies with silence and precision.

Every other game, though? You're a cookie. And cookies get eaten, especially by spoiled children who are gonna ruin their dinner.

[Lances107]

The general rule one maybe two weapon groups, and two is pushing it. Whats my point? My point is every mech has arms, you set one of your two weapon groups for your arm weapons, then you shoot the light in the legs.

Ive seen some crazy inaccurate information on these forums. Some of you pilots need to find a good unit willing to teach new pilots, and learn from them. Just as I did. The stuff spewed on the internet about games, most of it is wrong.

[Anubis Ka]

0Elric0, on 09 June 2021 - 10:37 AM, said:

just woundering if others feel that light mechs are too powerful. in my opinion with a decent pilot a light is the most powerful mech in the game. I have witnessed to many times a light run around the feet of another mech, take him out move on to the next take him out etc, with me in my med mech trying to protect him often with others trying to hit the little guy, and alot of the time he turns to me and takes me out. if this were real world nobody in there right mind would ever drive anything but a light mech. in my opinion a light mech should be a scout (getting targets for LRMs, leaders calling out targets. electronic counter measures etc)

Lights should take physical damage from hugging any mech period. PGI nerf fallback damage but it should be added with a modifier where you can knock back a mech that is equal or lesser weight class. That would cut down on a light mech face hugging an assault and not taking any damage in return. Like they do in MW5.

[Meep Meep]

Anubis Ka, on 10 June 2021 - 03:36 PM, said:

Lights should take physical damage from hugging any mech period. PGI nerf fallback damage but it should be added with a modifier where you can knock back a mech that is equal or lesser weight class. That would cut down on a light mech face hugging an assault and not taking any damage in return. Like they do in MW5.

If you face hug any mech your legs will take constant damage. I have to be careful when blocking enemy mechs trying to back out of the line of fire or I will leg myself.

[Khobai]

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 June 2021 - 02:18 PM, said:

Of course, because those described conditions actually are close to absolte perfect conditions because the only remaining variable is the difference in armor + structure (where higher armor values in Testing Grounds are somewhat off-set by armor and structure bonuses from skill trees in actual gameplay).



And with good reason



Then you obviously failed to properly follow the discussion
Because ...



...Khobai explicitly wrote that a "standard PIR-1 with 12 machine guns + 1 laser" could do those 5 second kills after I asked him which light (variant and configuration) against which mech from which angle of attack he was talking about. So I took such a "standard" (actually non-standard) PIR-1 and did that test.



No, it doesn't undermine that at all, because the test was directly aimed at Khobai's claims in his response to my questions (which he tried to handwave away and didn't provide any proof for). Immobile targets and aggressor's in a scenario with the proposed loadout at optimum range in an environment that knows no ping lag or desync is close to absolute perfect because it reduces the entire test to that one particular variable: back armor -> default armor with default quirks vs. non-default armor with default quirks plus whatever bonuses you have on armor and structure via skill points.



The problem is: Khobai is not arguing in good faith.

Wait you all agree with me that piranhas can kill assaults in 5 seconds? but somehow im not arguing in good faith? LOL.

You asked me what mech. you asked me what conditions. I told you. And its absolutely true.

Yes the conditions have to be perfect but I admitted as much.

Also I said mechs with combined armor and structure of 70 or less would die in 5 seconds. Given that the piranha does 13 dps x 5 seconds = 65 damage(not including the bonus damage machine guns do to structure) my numbers are pretty spot on. But you started doing tests on atlases to try and prove me wrong. Atlases DO NOT have combined armor and structure of 70 or less. Especially not the ones in testing grounds with like 20-30 back armor. They have WAY more.

youre the one testing things in bad faith. because its literally the only way you could counter my argument.by creating a phony test thats outside the specifications I gave.

And i just got out of a game in my Piranha a few minutes ago where this commando and me completely murdered a marauder and it literally took less than 5 seconds to kill it from behind after the commando got it turned away from me. Piranhas absolutely can kill assaults in like 5 seconds under the right circumstances. And im not even very good at piloting a Piranha. But even Im killing assaults in them every other game or so. Admittedly Im having some bad games too where I cant seem to do anything.

Lights are definitely not overpowered though. The problem is assault scaling and pitch and crappy teammates that dont support them.

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 June 2021 - 02:18 PM, said:

And this circumstance makes lights in general or the PIR in particular "overpowered" or a "problem"?
That's more of your "logic" that doesn't really compute.

um when did I ever say lights were overpowered? I never said it.

again I said assaults and players are the problem not lights. .

the existence of mechs like the piranha isnt a reason to nerf lights. its a reason to buff assaults.

Lances107, on 10 June 2021 - 03:00 PM, said:

The general rule one maybe two weapon groups, and two is pushing it. Whats my point? My point is every mech has arms, you set one of your two weapon groups for your arm weapons, then you shoot the light in the legs.

every mech has arms. not all mechs have arm weapons. take the banshee for example.

your generalizations about arm weapons dont apply to every mech.

I agree 100% that arm weapons are better than nothing against lights. But its not an option for every mech.

Then you have people that will tell you not to play Banshees because other assaults are better. Well why are they in the game if nobody should play them? the very fact we have different tiers of mechs is an indication that the mechs in the game arnt balanced very well. If not having arm weapons is such a disadvantage well then mechs without arm weapons need serious compensation to make up for that.

Better streaks will help with that since they let assaults without arm weapons use streaks as a sortve arm weapon. Streaks just have to get buffed back to a point where assaults want to use them over SRMs for their added effectiveness against lights. right now SRMs are just better though.

Edited by Khobai, 11 June 2021 - 12:04 AM.