619 replies to this topic

[Kanil]

Lockheed_, on 13 June 2021 - 12:14 AM, said:

you are talking to a guy who plays 48% assaults.

... doesn't mean that's what you're best at driving, though. I've got 21% assaults which is a nice way of saying the first 79% of my MWO career was just a waste of time

[MrMadguy]

Leone, on 12 June 2021 - 12:18 PM, said:

What? No. What folk are saying is that amongst the eight lights provided by that screenshot, matchscore was under par. Sure, you got a high score. Nice. Also, unimportant to the claims stated in the Opening Post. Statistics cares not about the outliers. Do you want me to post a screen shot of assaults getting crap scores and claim they need buffs? You are missing the forest for a tree.

I have screenshots of every weight class of mech getting top damage. One match does not prove a point.

~Leone.

And also some guys clime, that anybody can do it in any 'Mech. Well. Jarls say, that my average match score is 200. In any 'Mech, i.e. in Heavies and Assaults. So, yeah, I'm not good player. But same Jarls say, that I'm exactly at 50%, so I'm average player. And I show match in trial Light 'Mech with 1% of experience in Light 'Mechs with more than 500 match score. It's more than 250% of my average performance. It says everything about 'Mechs like Arctic Cheater. And Piranhas are twice more OP.

[Der Geisterbaer]

MrMadguy said:

And I show match in trial Light 'Mech with 1% of experience in Light 'Mechs with more than 500 match score.

Considering that the Cheetah is currently not available as a trial mech your screenshot would appear to be a bit older, wouldn't it? Now when looking at those Jarl's numbers the best bet for when you took it is August 2020 ... a month where you outdid yourself and played a total of 147 matches in that month with 14% Light mech usage ... which amounts to a total of 20 to 21 matches in a Light ... which also is about the total sum of all your time spent in a Light.
So it's very likely that you are indeed presenting very selective "evidence".

MrMadguy said:

It's more than 250% of my average performance. It says everything about 'Mechs like Arctic Cheater.

All that says for now is that you managed to create a singular data point that's does not fit with the rest of your general performance.

MrMadguy said:

And Piranhas are twice more OP.

Now let's put this claim to the test by making you putting (virtual) money to where your mouth is:
Do us a favour and actually buy either a PIR-1 or a PIR-2 and give whichever one you chose a suitable loadout - should be way less than 10 Million C-Bills in total.

The respective loadouts were already mentioned in this thread by Meep Meep and ASH:
PIR-1 - Feel free to shave off the head armor down to 1 and to something around 8 on the arms to get room for another 0.5t of machine gun ammo should you find yourself running out of ammo too early. You could of course switch out the 3 cHSL to 3cμPL but I can't recommend doing that.

PIR-2 - Feel free to remove those two c-ER μL and investing the gained 0.5 tons in some armor on arms and the head should you feel uncomfortable with having zero armor in those zones. Removing those two lasers certainly does not impact the overall performance in capable hands like yours.


Then do 10 matches in that mech and make a screenshot of each end game screen and then show us all 10 of them. The catch: This challenge becomes invalid by end of June 2021. And be prepared to be asked questions should your June numbers show a light mech percentage that amounts to more than 10 matches.

[edit]Personally I'd like you to do in the PIR-1 rather than the PIR-2 since it's usually the machine gun fish that is singled out as the (not so) big bad bogeyman whenever someone decides to cry about overpowered lights[/edit]

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 13 June 2021 - 03:09 AM.

[PocketYoda]

justcallme A S H, on 12 June 2021 - 07:25 PM, said:

ok been busy working last couple days, time to catch up.



Works completely fine for me with 240ms-260ms when playing.

I play at the highest level. I can hit lights without any drama. I've legged many lights at 700m in a single shot.

Ping / HSR is not the reason you are unable to hit them. Keep blaming it though.



I'm not sure for mech specific. Quirks are easy as DATA said and some lights will get such a quirk added hopefully as part of a quirk pass



Near enough lol.

Its not my aim [Redacted].

Edited by Armchair General, 13 June 2021 - 07:36 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

MechaGnome, on 13 June 2021 - 04:54 AM, said:

Its not my aim [Redacted].

It is.

I could double my ping to 500ms and would still not blame it.

Edited by Armchair General, 13 June 2021 - 07:36 AM.

[MechNexus]

MechaGnome, on 13 June 2021 - 04:54 AM, said:

Its not my aim [Redacted].

Dude, just sweep their legs. All you need to take is one, you can shoot where you like afterwards. If you're struggling to make pinpoint shots on them, that's fair, even I struggle - in which case I reccomend using something you can spam ((U)AC2/5/10), something that does damage over a duration (lasers, MRMs), or has spread (LBACs, SRMs, MRMs again) to help alleviate the issue. It's genuinely not that hard.

Edited by Armchair General, 13 June 2021 - 07:36 AM.

[1453 R]

I recall reading somewhere in the past that FPS game developers actually have to account for the discrepancy between someone's perceived aiming skills and their actual aim when designing their game. It's one of the reasons aim assist persists in gaming these days, though if I'm recalling my Sundry Game Trivia correctly it wasn't the reason people invented aim assist. Nevertheless, FPS game devs have to account for the fact that most players perceive their personal aiming skills to be much better than they are, and enough of a discrepancy between that perceived truth and reality will cause players to reject the game and harm sales.

A lot of work has gone into natural-seeming, unobtrusive aim assist in modern FPS games, and a lot of players of other games don't realize how much work the game is doing to correct their dodgy aim for them. Especially when high speed character movement is involved, such as with light 'Mechs or with literally anything in a Titanfall-esque arcade jumpack shooter. It's one of the reasons the Titanfall devs introduced the oh-so-hated lockon pistol. People in those games hated that gun, though it was cheating of the worst degree and were desperate for the devs to get rid of it because the Church of Skill goobers thought an option that allowed players with "bad aim" to play and enjoy the game as well was literal heresy. All the while never really realizing how much their own aim was being assisted by the game, and never realizing that the lockon pistol's range/lock time were so short/long respectively that using the weapon against players required game sense, movement/evasion skills, and canniness all its own because every direct-fire gun in the game beat the lockon pistol twice over or more in time-to-kill.

It's sorta the same with Streaks/direct-fire weapons in this game. Lock-on warheads are beaten by direct-fire weapons pretty much universally (absent ridiculously bad loadouts), even direct fire only lock-on weapons like Streaks or ATMs. But Church of Skill goobers still shriek and rant about how terrible any sort of lock-on mechanic is in the game because that contradicts their worship of Twitch Aim. And then the very same Church of Skill goobers carp and complain about stuff that reveals their own general lack of exceptional skill, such as light 'Mechs, which are normally intended to be at least partially countered by the lock-on options they've spent forever deriding as trash for n00bs, whilst snapping and snarling at anyone who suggests that the issue may lie, at least partially, between keyboard and chair.

Light 'Mechs are difficult targets in this game (when they're juking properly, at least). People who can reliably hit them with heavy direct-fire weapons are rare. That's okay. There are other options, and even the most powerfully armed light 'Mechs I can think of either have to make some serious sacrifices to get there or don't have remotely enough firepower to chew through an assault backside before the assault can even react.

Hell, even my experimental (and ultimately failed) A.ss Assassin Black Lanner, which had a gigantic alpha* number at the expense of any sanity, only rarely managed to instagib a backside. This is a 'Mech that can output 72 damage in the space of two seconds or slightly less (provided I remember to stagger my triggers enough not to Spoopy Heat myself into oblivion), and while whoever I managed to execute a successful A.ss-sassination against was absolutely sweating bullets when I was through, they were usually still up. With a deep orange or cherry-red CT, to be sure - but assault 'Mechs rarely went down to one salvo to the A.ss Assassin.

If I can't do it with over seventy damage worth of heavy laser vomit, light 'Mechs can't do it with significantly less damage. You will have time to shoot the little buggers, and even your crappy aim will eventually beat their nigh-nonexistent armor. Trust me. It happens. All the time.

[Khobai]

if i can put my crosshair on a light I can hit it. that isnt the problem. the problem I have in assaults is the situation where you physically cant put your crosshair on the light because your mech is too tall and doesnt have enough pitch to bend down to see them. and then they have stealth armor so you cant even see the red box to graze them with whatever arm weapons you might have.

the game needs more ways for assaults to assert their personal space against lights. streaks used to do that. now theyre useless. stealth armor has also made it immensely difficult for assaults to hit lights with arm weapons without any red box to indicate where they are when you cant see them under your hud.

stealth armor is incredibly dumb and one of the most unfun things in the game right now IMO. I have never once enjoyed playing hunt the stealth flea. clans dont even get their bloodhound AP which is supposed to be the clan's counter to stealth armor. If they add any new equipment to the game it should be the bloodhound active probe.

those are the only two issues I have with lights. Other than that Im actually for buffing lights with defensive quirks and changing the scoring system so lights dont get screwed as much.

Edited by Khobai, 13 June 2021 - 07:42 AM.

[1453 R]

Khobai.

Khobai.

Khobai.

No competent lightweight pilot makes a habit of Crotch Gnawing. Crotch Gnawing is a measure of desperation for a light 'Mech pilot with no other options left. It only works if the Fatbro in question has no buddies whatsoever, and also no arm-mounted weapons. Crotch Gnawing completely removes a light 'Mech's greatest asset, which is its speed and agility, in order to take advantage of a dodgy, unreliable piece of hitbox jank that often gets the light 'Mech killed regardless. It is a nonfactor in light 'Mech balancing.

The moment there are two 'Mechs within support distance of one another, Crotch Gnawing stops working because the second 'Mech can shoot the light 'Mech for free.

The moment the assault 'Mech has arm-mounted weapons, Crotch Gnawing stops working because the assault 'Mech getting the nonconsensual robit ******** can shoot the light 'Mech for free its own *** self.

Hell, I've seen a badly damaged light 'Mech kill itself with collision damage trying to gnaw the crotch of an assault 'Mech before. That's pretty phenomenally rare, but then again so is Crotch Gnawing actually being a viable tactic.

Please, Khobai. Stop acting like light 'Mechs lampreying your roballs is a real problem. Even down in T5, it is no such thing.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 13 June 2021 - 12:14 AM, said:

my night gyr runs six CUAC2s which will outdps any MCII CUAC5/CUAC10 build and outrange it severely. I have almost a 1000m optimum range. Why would I use CUAC5s/10s theyre inferior in virtually every way. CUAC5s have worse range, worse dps per tonnage, worse velocity, more heat per damage, and way worse jamming duration and inconsistency when fired in ultra mode, for what advantage? They do 2.5 burst damage instead of the 2 that CUAC2s do. Thats their only advantage. CUAC5s are just inferior to CUAC2s right now. CUAC10s dont compare very good to two CUAC2s for the same tonnage either.

and if its night gyr vs ultraviolet my money is still on the night gyr to win that fight. the direwolf is a horrible mech in long range poking fights. getting all 8 of its CUAC2s to clear terrain is miserable and forces it to expose itself terribly.

yes the ultraviolet has higher potential for dps. the problem is bringing that dps to bear requires it to expose itself a lot more. that makes it a worse mech IMO. a lot of the time ultraviolets get isolated from their team because of how slow they are so a light mech can just kill them lol. The Night Gyr is fast enough to stay with its team.

Thats also why the blood asp is a better assault than the direwolf IMO. Going slower than 55-60kph is basically just asking your team to abandon you. The blood asp is really the only clan assault I consider to be any good right now. Its reasonably fast with high hardpoints and doesnt have weird protruding CT geometry that gets hit from every angle.

The blood asp should be the norm for clan assaults though not the exception.

One reason to use the MCII is the higher alpha. Keeping alphas down was a main point of ghost heat and you did say ghost heat was a reason Assaults don't have higher firepower than heavies. Also I question the statement of a 6cuac2 Night Gyr out dpsing any MCII cuac5/10 build. Jam chance makes it difficult to say for sure since it can vary, however out of uac mode the MCII can out sustained dps the Gyr by a large margin. It can also out burst dps the Gyr if you use the energy hardpoints.

So yeah, if you want to play peak and shoot at range then a cuac2 Gyr can make more sense than a cuac5/10 MCII. But if you want to peak and shoot at midrange or move in, then the MCII makes more sense. Should the assault build just be better at all ranges? Also isn't that more of a difference in weapons than mechs? Why are we comparing these? Why don't we compare cuac5/10 heavies to the MCII?

[1453 R]

Khobai has this weird fixation on every autocannon save the UAC/2 being totally useless now. I'm not sure why - Quack/5 and Quack/10 builds are doing fine. I only ever see massed AC/2 from Rifleman IICs and Ultraviolets, and frankly neither of them feel as dangerous as the Quack/5&10 variations of the same 'Mechs. yeah, getting constantly dinked by an AC/2 is super aggravating and can sometimes have rotary-autocannon effects on the target's brain, but the whole "DPS per ton" idea is flawed in the first place. DPS is DPS - however many tons you spend to do it is ultimately irrelevant. The fact that Quack/2s have better DPS per ton than Quack/5s or Quack/10s doesn't matter if you have the spare tonnage to use on 5s or 10s.

The hex Quack/2 build is basically a rotary autocannon build with all the facetime issues of rotaries, except at four times the tonnage investment. Sure, you get instant startup - which is super cool and a decided advantage of massed standard autocannons over a rotary - but if one is Ultra-ing their Quack/2s then they're getting jammed up as much as a rotary is and constantly losing DPS to jammed guns. Those builds also suck in close quarters because of facetime issues and constant jams. Quack/5s and 10s deliver a bigger initial kick before they jam, which can partially mitigate close-quarters issues.

Really, I have no idea why the hex Quack/2 Night Gyr is supposed to be so Bee's-Knees fantabulous. You can only even do it in the first place with the hero 'Mech unless you give up your ECM, which I am loathe to do on something as fat and sluggish as the Night Gyr, and your guns are spread unevenly all over your 'Mech. And most of them are in the arms, which A.) makes them much worse at Hill-Humper vertical poking, and B.) completely invalidates Khobai's issues with Crotch Gnawing. So the whole thing not only peeks much less effectively than Marauders, Asps, or Krabs, it's also immune to the thing he keeps saying large fat 'Mechs suffer from.

I'm honestly not even really sure what the argument is anymore. Was there ever an argument in the first place? Are any of us truly here? o_o...

[Khobai]

dario03, on 13 June 2021 - 08:11 AM, said:

One reason to use the MCII is the higher alpha. Keeping alphas down was a main point of ghost heat and you did say ghost heat was a reason Assaults don't have higher firepower than heavies. Also I question the statement of a 6cuac2 Night Gyr out dpsing any MCII cuac5/10 build. Jam chance makes it difficult to say for sure since it can vary, however out of uac mode the MCII can out sustained dps the Gyr by a large margin. It can also out burst dps the Gyr if you use the energy hardpoints.

The alpha isnt substantially higher though. x6 CUAC2s does 24 damage while x2 UAC5s and x2 UAC10s is 30 damage. Its only a 6 damage difference. But look what you give up...

The CUAC2s have way more range, way faster velocity, higher dps, and take up less tonnage and crit slots.

If the best the MCII can do is push out a measly 6 extra damage per alpha at the expense of range, velocity, dps, and spending more tonnage and crits thats pretty sad.

Keep in mind the madcat mkII also has a full 15 ton advantage on the nightgyr too and isnt putting out significantly more firepower.

1453 R, on 13 June 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

Khobai has this weird fixation on every autocannon save the UAC/2 being totally useless now.

Because the CUAC2 is now superior to the CUAC5 and CUAC10. Its not a weird fixation, Cauldron significantly buffed it last patch and now its superior. All one has to do is compare the stats to see the truth in it.

1) CUAC2 has significantly better range and velocity than the CUAC5
2) CUAC2 does nearly the same dps as the CUAC5 and nearly the same burst damage as the CUAC5
3) CUAC2 weighs significantly less tonnage and takes up less crits than the CUAC5
4) CUAC2 has a significantly lower jam duration resulting in a flatter more consistent dps curve
5) You can have any number of CUAC2s without any ghost heat. While the CUAC5 has a GH limit of 3 for some dumb reason.

The CUAC2 is literally the ultimate autocannon now provided you can spam it in quantity. Which means at least 5-8 of them.

Now if they got rid of the dumb GH limit of 3 on the CUAC5 and if they lowered the INSANELY long jam duration of the CUAC10 from 8s to something approaching reasonable like 6s things might be different.

Edited by Khobai, 13 June 2021 - 08:54 AM.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 13 June 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

The alpha isnt substantially higher though. x6 CUAC2s does 24 damage while x2 UAC5s and x2 UAC10s is only 30 damage.

Then you have to consider the CUAC2s also have way more range, way faster velocity, higher dps, and take up less tonnage and crit slots.

If the best the assault can do is push out 6 extra damage per alpha at the expense of range, velocity, dps, and spending more tonnage and crits thats pretty sad...

Why did you count the double tap of the 6cuac2 but not the 2cuac5/10? The alpha is 12 vs 30 without double shots or up to 24 vs 60 with. Also nobody said thats the best assault for this comparison, actually I just said this comparison doesn't make sense, because the weapons are so different.

[Khobai]

dario03, on 13 June 2021 - 08:40 AM, said:

Why did you count the double tap of the 6cuac2 but not the 2cuac5/10? The alpha is 12 vs 30 without double shots or up to 24 vs 60 with. Also nobody said thats the best assault for this comparison, actually I just said this comparison doesn't make sense, because the weapons are so different.

the CUAC10s always jam on the first shot. they never work right. theyre awful. other people have witnessed the same thing with CUAC10s that theres some kindve bug with them where they jam up almost every time.

its always safe to ultra fire the CUAC2s now. they are amazingly consistent and dont jam very long. you would never not ultra fire them. The build doesnt really overheat so you dont have to stop ultra firing.

whereas you definitely dont always want to ultra fire the CUAC5s and 10s because theyre notorious for jamming on the first shot and have absurdly long jam times staying jammed 2-3 times longer than CUAC2s. ultra firing them poses a substantial risk to upsetting your consistent dps.

but I suppose if for some reason you wanted to ultra fire the CUAC5s and CUAC10s you could... but theyre going to jam up.

so its 24 vs 30 if youre firing the CUAC5/CUAC10 in single mode since you would never not fire the CUAC2s in ultra mode now.

and its 24 vs 60 if you fire the CUAC5/CUAC10 in ultra mode and somehow manage not to jam them up. But they always jam up lol.

you also have to keep in mind the CUAC2 cooldown is almost four times faster than the CUAC10s. So by the time you get your second CUAC10 shot off the CUAC2s have fired almost four times. The overall DPS is much higher on the CUAC2s.

Also if youre engaging with the CUAC2s from 930m away that gives you a pretty huge advantage since youll be outside the optimal range of most return fire. Thats a significant damage reduction. Where being in CUAC10 range means youre inside the optimal range of most return fire. youre gonna get hammered a lot harder when you poke out. Why incur all that added risk for such a minimal benefit? The range advantage of the CUAC2s is overpowering and massive.

I believe the CUAC2 has so many undeniable advantages over the CUAC5 and CUAC10 right now that I wouldnt use either of those other weapons anymore.

The CUAC20 on the other hand is actually in a pretty good spot compared to the CUAC2. And if the meta was more inclined towards brawling id definitely be rocking the CUAC20 more. For some goofy reason the CUAC10 actually has a longer jam duration than the CUAC20 which I dont get at all. The 8s jam duration on the CUAC10 is absolutely ridiculous. If Cauldron reduced the unreasonably long jam duration it would probably change my opinion of the CUAC10 completely.

Edited by Khobai, 13 June 2021 - 09:34 AM.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 13 June 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

Keep in mind the madcat mkII also has a full 15 ton advantage on the nightgyr too and isnt putting out significantly more firepower.

This and your other comments make it sound like you think an assault should just be better in all cases. Do you want assaults to just be flat out better than heavies?

Quote

Because the CUAC2 is now superior to the CUAC5 and CUAC10. Its not a weird fixation, Cauldron significantly buffed it last patch and now its superior. All one has to do is compare the stats to see the truth in it.

1) CUAC2 has significantly better range and velocity than the CUAC5
2) CUAC2 does nearly the same dps as the CUAC5 and nearly the same burst damage as the CUAC5
3) CUAC2 weighs significantly less tonnage and takes up less crits than the CUAC5
4) CUAC2 has a significantly lower jam duration resulting in a flatter more consistent dps curve
5) You can have any number of CUAC2s without any ghost heat. While the CUAC5 has a GH limit of 3 for some dumb reason.

The CUAC2 is literally the ultimate autocannon now provided you can spam it in quantity. Which means at least 5-8 of them.

Now if they got rid of the dumb GH limit of 3 on the CUAC5 and if they lowered the INSANELY long jam duration of the CUAC10 from 8s to something approaching reasonable like 6s things might be different.

If you want to argue cuac2 is better than the other cuacs thats fine, but thats a different discussion. And it doesn't make heavies better than assaults at firepower. There are lots of different weapon combos that are better in other cases, also you can put cuac2 on clan assaults.

[justcallme A S H]

dario03, on 13 June 2021 - 08:11 AM, said:

Also I question the statement of a 6cuac2 Night Gyr out dpsing any MCII cuac5/10 build.

He assumes that you can just stand in the open with cUAC2s and farm vs bursting a doiuble-tap with UAC10/5 in a trade/fade scenario.

The comments come from nothing other than a massive fundamental large lack of understanding of good gameplay.

Thus it is pointless to discuss because he cannot be proven wrong - even if he loses to it every time. And I would do that every time.

Complete nonsense, again.

[Nightbird]

dario03, on 13 June 2021 - 09:07 AM, said:

This and your other comments make it sound like you think an assault should just be better in all cases. Do you want assaults to just be flat out better than heavies?

Yes...

Edited by Nightbird, 13 June 2021 - 10:08 AM.

[JediPanther]

14-15 pages in and no one not a single person has given any reason out of all 127 light mechs in the game exactly which ones and builds are OP OR how to fix those exact variant/build.

mwo light count 6-13-12
lights is

fle 6
lct 8
com 6
jav 7
osr 7
spdr 5
urb 7
fsr 7
jr7 6
pnt 6
rvn 5
wolf 6
IS lights total 76

lights clan
pir 6
mlx 8
ach 7
inc 6
kfx 7
ard 6
cou 6
jr72c 6

lights clan total 52
all lights total 127

STEALTH ECM MECHS POSSIBLE
fle-20
lct-pb
com-2d
jvn-11B
sdr-5D
rvn-3L
wlf-ginner

Stealth mech total 7 of 127

Clan ecms lights
mlx-C
ach-prime
kfx-g
cou-h

clan ecms total 5 of 52-5 of 127

Some one better find out what lights mechs are op or am I the only one that sees this as just another waste of space and time thread done for the ten zillion th time since 2012 when only the jenners were the sole light mech in the game and being complained about as being op?

[pattonesque]

MechaGnome, on 13 June 2021 - 04:54 AM, said:

Its not my aim [Redacted].

judging by the numbers it's either your aim or your volume of fire. A lot of MWO players simply do not take anything close to the maximum number of available shots they have.

[LordNothing]

MechB Kotare, on 09 June 2021 - 10:42 PM, said:

Light are not op. Fact is some of them are ridiculously large and need rescale. Skill needs to be nerfed...

Rescaling some of the assault would also help, but im fine with the fact that skilled light pilot can totally crash unskilled assault mech pilot.

If lights were made even worse, no one would play them. Please dont touch the lights, do something about assault instead.

Also saying this from medium/heavy main pilot's perspective. I dont play lights at all.

when people say lights suck, what they really mean to say is that 35 tonners suck. lower weight lights are pretty good. when people say lights are op, they are usually just bad assault pilots.