619 replies to this topic

[B0oN]

PIR are still pretty hard to handle if these little buggers are piloted well, but OP ?
Hmmmmm ... in my opinion they are really close to that red line, but not over it .

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Everytime I see someone complain about lights being OP I can't help but think that they got dunked on by a skilled (or more skilled than them) light pilot and are just salty. Lights simply have a higher skill ceiling.

[Kiiyor]

You're a genius Kiiyor!

Pffft, who needs rear armour? I've seen them rumours on the forums about a whole class o' mechs that have the speed and maneuverability to sneak up behind the fat machines, BUT I'LL BELIEVE THERE'S A WEIGHT CLASS LOWER THAN HEAVY WHEN I SEE IT. Kiiyor don't fear no bogeyman!

You should do this to ALL your mechs Kiiyor!

[MrMadguy]

Capt Deadpool, on 09 June 2021 - 11:29 PM, said:

Fixed that for you

I was just 10 meters away from my team. And anyway. Anybody knows, that even 5 teammates near me wouldn't prevent my death due to amount of damage, Light can suck. And then this guys say "NASCAR is bad". NASCAR happens exactly due to this "Don't be rambo" mentality, when players try to stick together.

And again. Price is still valuable balancing factor, despite of getting rid of repair and refit costs as balancing factors. Nobody would complain, if it would be just CBs. But MCs are equivalent of real money. Cheaper 'Mechs just shouldn't be better. It should be tradeoff. You buy cheaper 'Mech? You should sacrifice something.

Dunno, what to do with this problem. May be battle value as PSR multiplier? Because some 'Mechs are really OP. Not only Lights. Kodiaks, Annihilators, etc. Yeah, MM filters them, if they're used too often. But this process is way too slow. They should play in their own league and shouldn't meet them in my matches.

[Kanil]

Kiiyor, on 10 June 2021 - 02:24 AM, said:

You should do this to ALL your mechs Kiiyor!

This, but unironically.

[Captain Caveman DE]

yes, rear-armor solves A LOT of light-problems in QP.

question is: how and what do you play? If I'm doing faction, 4backarmor is just not needed and better used at the front. after all, my team literally has my back.
in QP, I've (re)learned that there IS no team, and increasing my backarmor to 5-7 (depends on the mech, and where his role is at) really makes me worry less about the rare good light-pilot you occasionally run into. also helps against the much more common "friendly" backshot.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 10 June 2021 - 03:10 AM.

[Storming Angel]

Captain Caveman DE, on 10 June 2021 - 03:10 AM, said:

yes, rear-armor solves A LOT of light-problems in QP.

question is: how and what do you play? If I'm doing faction, 4backarmor is just not needed and better used at the front. after all, my team literally has my back.
in QP, I've (re)learned that there IS no team, and increasing my backarmor to 5-7 (depends on the mech, and where his role is at) really makes me worry less about the rare good light-pilot you occasionally run into. also helps against the much more common "friendly" backshot.

I go for 8-12 back armour on most of my mechs, unless they are lights or mediums then i go less. But too be fair the amount of times i've been shot in the back by friendly units unintentionally or arty gets dropped while one of my slows mechs is attempting to leave or i fail to notice, tends to damage the rear as well leaving it mostly yellow or light orange.

And also because i don't trust my teammates to be competent 24/7 and being self-sufficient is more importantly really.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Yep, 8-10 points of back armor stands up to artillery or 15 micro lasers to the butt a little better than 4. Don't go overboard on front loading armor, y'all.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Capt Deadpool, on 09 June 2021 - 11:29 PM, said:

Fixed that for you

Yep, try staying with your side when you go 48 - 52 kp/h in an assault and everyone else runs off in the headless chicken nascar spiral. Some of the maps almost incentivise such poor behaviour or have been amended to give non-jump capable lights and even faster rate of closure on the poor assaults being left behind (and one map in particular that was "fixed" when it never really needed touching in the first place).

I play a PIR with all the micro lasers under the sun loaded for the occasional fun drop, although literally being able to kill that stranded 100t mech in under 5s quickly becomes tiresome and does little to provide satisfaction for me as the killer nor undoubtedly to the poor target as the victim.

Certain Lights do have a superior advantage because of their boating ability that the majority of other mechs can only dream of.

It this thread had gone down this route rather than the random challenges and predictable nay saying from the usual suspects, something may actually be agreed on and appropriate consideration and action applied. However, nearly all threads end up with the same arguments with faulty or non-existent proof, rather than taking points to heart, properly considering them for ALL players, then responding in a constructive manner rather than personal attacks.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Captain Caveman DE, on 10 June 2021 - 03:10 AM, said:

yes, rear-armor solves A LOT of light-problems in QP.

question is: how and what do you play? If I'm doing faction, 4backarmor is just not needed and better used at the front. after all, my team literally has my back.
in QP, I've (re)learned that there IS no team, and increasing my backarmor to 5-7 (depends on the mech, and where his role is at) really makes me worry less about the rare good light-pilot you occasionally run into. also helps against the much more common "friendly" backshot.

Storming Angel, on 10 June 2021 - 04:19 AM, said:

I go for 8-12 back armour on most of my mechs, unless they are lights or mediums then i go less. But too be fair the amount of times i've been shot in the back by friendly units unintentionally or arty gets dropped while one of my slows mechs is attempting to leave or i fail to notice, tends to damage the rear as well leaving it mostly yellow or light orange.

And also because i don't trust my teammates to be competent 24/7 and being self-sufficient is more importantly really.

ScrapIron Prime, on 10 June 2021 - 04:45 AM, said:

Yep, 8-10 points of back armor stands up to artillery or 15 micro lasers to the butt a little better than 4. Don't go overboard on front loading armor, y'all.

If anything since the artillery nerfs there is no reason to not go for low back armour, if a light gets a chance to backstab then most of the time its your fault due to a lack of situational awareness or poor movement. Preventing them from getting backshots will always be the better solution than trying to tank them, a good example of this in practice would be looking around and watching out for fast movers as you move towards the fight early on.

[Storming Angel]

Monke-, on 10 June 2021 - 05:50 AM, said:

If anything since the artillery nerfs there is no reason to not go for low back armour, if a light gets a chance to backstab then most of the time its your fault due to a lack of situational awareness or poor movement. Preventing them from getting backshots will always be the better solution than trying to tank them, a good example of this in practice would be looking around and watching out for fast movers as you move towards the fight early on.

Yeah, no. Ill keep to 8-12 back armour for my assaults or slower less agile mechs.

[Khobai]

Der Geisterbaer, on 10 June 2021 - 12:49 AM, said:

Two questions:

Which PIR (variant / actual loadout) kills which mech (weight class, armor values, strucure values, engine type) from which attack angle in 5 seconds?

What are the additional situational constraints that have to be met in order to get that "perfect situation" 5 second kill, that as such potentially qualifies the scenario as a fallacious focus on an edge case?

a standard 12 machine gun + 1 laser piranha-1 does that easily

it does ~13 dps. once the machine guns get through the armor and into the structure the dps spikes much higher.

any mech with a combination of armor+structure of 70 or less on their back and CT dies in 5 seconds.

the only situational constraints is that it finds an isolated mech and shoots it in the back CT for 5 seconds. which isnt that difficult given how bad a lot of assault pilots are these days especially in the upper tiers. It doesnt help that slow assaults often find themselves isolated because their teams leave them behind.

its not some fallacious edge case it literally happens all the time lol.

And Im not saying piranhas are overpowered. Just that it does happen a lot more than it should.

Edited by Khobai, 10 June 2021 - 06:16 AM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Monke-, on 10 June 2021 - 05:50 AM, said:

If anything since the artillery nerfs there is no reason to not go for low back armour, if a light gets a chance to backstab then most of the time its your fault due to a lack of situational awareness or poor movement. Preventing them from getting backshots will always be the better solution than trying to tank them, a good example of this in practice would be looking around and watching out for fast movers as you move towards the fight early on.

while true, you can't have your eyes everywhere. every now and then, there IS a skilled light-pilot you don't see immediately (because, you know.. sometimes there are friends&foes who know what they're doing..).
jarl's says that you generally know what you're doing.. pls don't assume other's don't
being in t3 atm, I HAVE to have my eyes everywhere while at the same time delivering dmg, because most of the time.. you know. so yeah: when the other side has a few lights, it IS hard to keep track of them all, shooting stuff and herding your blues the best way you know - though at the same time they do the exact opposite of what you'd suggest be a good move.
I'm sure you can sympathise

[Gagis]

Note that when going low on rear armour, you still have the full pool of structure to rely on for resisting backstabs. Front is where the actual hail of fire you need to live trough comes from, and a tiny bit of armour + all of the structure should be all you need against friendly fire and exposure from bad movement.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Gagis, on 10 June 2021 - 06:09 AM, said:

Note that when going low on rear armour, you still have the full pool of structure to rely on for resisting backstabs. Front is where the actual hail of fire you need to live trough comes from, and a tiny bit of armour + all of the structure should be all you need against friendly fire and exposure from bad movement.

ha, you spoiled T1 pilot
I don't bother with counting the number of times there was a "sorry, weapons test" right in the spawn, or peaking over a ridge, just to be blocked while going back and recieving a number of shots from low mounted arm-weapons to the back at the same time.
yeah.. t3 is .. different.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 10 June 2021 - 06:12 AM.

[Khobai]

Gagis, on 10 June 2021 - 06:09 AM, said:

Note that when going low on rear armour, you still have the full pool of structure to rely on for resisting backstabs. Front is where the actual hail of fire you need to live trough comes from, and a tiny bit of armour + all of the structure should be all you need against friendly fire and exposure from bad movement.

the problem is machine guns do bonus damage to internal structure and they completely shred it.

ive always been against critical hits doing bonus damage to structure because it defeats the entire purpose of critical hits which is to destroy the weapons in a location before destroying the location itself.

the way the game is now critical hits on weapons almost never end up mattering because the entire hit location gets destroyed so quickly which takes out all the weapons anyway.

if internal structure didnt get destroyed so quickly you could have a whole class of weapons dedicated to critting out weapons. like your machine guns and LBXs. And weapons like LBX would have more of a role than they currently do.

Edited by Khobai, 10 June 2021 - 07:19 AM.

[Lances107]

Are lights too powerful? Answer No
The problem is not the crits or game design, its that most pilots in heavies and assaults panic when a light attacks them. This normally leads to there death. How do you kill a light? You leg em. If your an assault put your back up against a wall, shield, and kill.

As for machine guns with out that crit of internal structure, which they should have, and LBX should keep. They are useless. People get too worked up about machine guns. The other day I ran into a dire, that was sporting nothing but machine guns. It was sad and funny. As they did almost no damage to my mech. Me and the other player just cored him and killed him. Thats not the only time ive seen this.

Machine guns, lights its about learning the game. Keeping calm and making the right choice when up against them. I am not saying I always make that right choice in game.

[Khobai]

Lances107, on 10 June 2021 - 07:14 AM, said:

Machine guns, lights its about learning the game. Keeping calm and making the right choice when up against them. I am not saying I always make that right choice in game.

how do you leg a light when your assault physically cant pitch down enough to shoot them in the first place? let alone their legs?

and a lot of the time when you play a slow huge assault your team either abandons you and/or doesnt back you up even if you ask them to.

huge assaults have a real problem dealing with tiny lights.

I totally understand why some people are getting frustrated by lights.

its not even that lights are overpowered its that assaults are massively oversized.

Edited by Khobai, 10 June 2021 - 07:35 AM.

[KaptinOrk]

1453 R, on 09 June 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

Worth reiterating: the best counter to light 'Mechs is shooting them.

I've been having a ton of fun in my very nearly bone-stock Nova Cat-D recently, whose claim to fame is being able to fire three heavy large lasers at once without Spoopy Heat telling me to go cook myself. HLLs are...not the shortest burntime lasers. Hell, I'm pretty sure they're the longest burntime in the game unless they re-nerfed cERLLs again. I've got ~1.5s lightsabers and a shotgun, often considered the worst anti-light weapons. Ye know what I do when a light 'mech starts nipping at me?

I shoot it.

Sure, I miss a lot. I don't/can't hold my lasers on the critters for much more'n half their burntime, if even that, provided the light is juking. I am in T5, you'd be surprised how often one pulls a straight-line attack run and gets burned for his efforts. My autocannon ticks a few pellets here and there. And ye know what usually happens? The light ***** off and goes away, because even glancing hits are not necessarily insignificant when you have maybe thirty points of armor on a given extremity. Because I shoot it, and thusly let it know it doesn't get to chew on my *** without me chewing back, it decides to look for someone else to chew on. With some fresh new dinged-up armor for the road.

Yeah, sure. Sometimes I get nibbled to death by a determined light pilot who knows their ****, or I get swarmed and cut apart. And sometimes I get a good, lucky burn in and harvest a ST or a leg, and the light proceeds to suck. One good, solid whack with that LB-10/X tends to remind them that I'm a fuggin' Nova Cat and they need to step careful around me. Not to mention my buddy Maker, who's made something of an art form out of heavy-goosing Commando kneecaps. Again - he shoots lights, and lights are significantly less of a problem for him.

Yeah, you miss sometimes. A lot of times, to be honest. But you also don't have to hit nearly as hard as a lot of people think they do in order to get light 'Mechs to ********** and let you be. You just have to hit them enough to remind them that you know exactly what they're doing and you ain't having it.

While I consider myself a medium pilot, I've dabbled in lights/light mediums and the bane of my existence is someone that doesn't stop firing. Even if I only take a 30-50% of their damage every time they fire, I don't have enough armor to trade like that, every single point of armor matters over the course of a game.

pattonesque, on 09 June 2021 - 02:59 PM, said:

just shoot them dude jeez

you get a build with a nice PPFLD alpha and just shoot them in the leg or side torso or whatever

I mean sure sometimes they can juke, but it's entirely possible to one- or two-shot many lights even if you're getting swarmed

when I play lights I'm constantly aware of this. one wrong move and it's gg



this dude gets it. a lot of you do not shoot at the enemy and it's very noticeable

So many problems in this game can be solved with "Just ******* shoot them". Stop running around pointlessly, stop playing JJ parkour, just shoot the enemy.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Khobai, on 10 June 2021 - 07:24 AM, said:

how do you leg a light when your assault physically cant pitch down enough to shoot them in the first place? let alone their legs?

assaults have a real problem dealing with tiny lights.

so, which is it now? first, THE problem is the dreaded, feared by all, machinegun
now it's the pitch (which gets changed in the next patch I hear)
-make up your mind

yeah, pitch is a problem for some mechs - which still has several solutions right now AND gets a change; the machinegun is maybe the most harmless weapon in QP besides the flamer, unless heavily boated - and yet.. ?

problem isn't lights, problem isn't MGs. problem isn't even their size, mobility, survivability etc

problem IS people. as usual. you have a couple of 'aware' pilots? lights are no problem. at all.

you have 11 of "yeah, these guys.." and brought a mech that can't handle lights on his own?
-> lights will wreck your face. otoh you've probably lost anyway at that point, since few can carry 11 others

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 10 June 2021 - 07:31 AM.