228 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

[mod]This discussion was split from the original topic Lets Debate - The Mobilty Pass[/mod]

Consider giving some lights JJ quirks for flavor, especially as JJs for lights are much weaker than for mediums for some reason.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 21 June 2021 - 11:32 PM.

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 21 June 2021 - 07:18 PM, said:

Consider giving some lights JJ quirks for flavor, especially as JJs for lights are much weaker than for mediums for some reason.

Jump Jets are currently planned for July.

Class V JJs will become as powerful as Class IV

Class III and II will see burn duration boosts

Class I will receive considerable burn duration boost

Edited by Navid A1, 21 June 2021 - 07:21 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 07:19 PM, said:

Jump Jets are currently planned for July.

Class V JJs will become as powerful as Class IV

Class III and II will see burn duration boosts

Class I will receive considerable burn duration boost

Super nervous about this one. Pls no return to the Dragon Slayer poptart days.

[w0qj]

Is it possible to reinstate Clan Omnimechs with optional JumpJets?
ie: Allow users to unequip Clan Omnimechs jumpjets, just like before?

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 07:19 PM, said:

Jump Jets are currently planned for July.

Class V JJs will become as powerful as Class IV

Class III and II will see burn duration boosts

Class I will receive considerable burn duration boost

[justcallme A S H]

Kiiyor, on 21 June 2021 - 07:32 PM, said:

Super nervous about this one. Pls no return to the Dragon Slayer poptart days.

It won't be anything like that. No need to be nervous.

It is a minor yet balanced alteration, you don't see heavy mechs flying through the air or anything. Just fair return for the tonnage invested.

It will fix the hole some mechs have (based on tonnage) where JJs are really diminished returns compared to mechs just 5T lighter or the next class of JJ up.

w0qj, on 21 June 2021 - 07:41 PM, said:

Is it possible to reinstate Clan Omnimechs with optional JumpJets?
ie: Allow users to unequip Clan Omnimechs jumpjets, just like before?

Locked JJs are not being altered or anything. It would also create a balance nightmare if you turns Omnis into semi-Battlemechs.

[Matthew Ace]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 07:19 PM, said:

Jump Jets are currently planned for July.

Class V JJs will become as powerful as Class IV

Class III and II will see burn duration boosts

Class I will receive considerable burn duration boost

Really looking forward to the patch which introduces this. Just how much is the considerable burn duration boost to Class I though? 50%? Dying to know.

I'm also keeping fingers crossed that there will be thrust speed boost of Class I, and to lesser extent, II,and III (but certainly not buffed to extent of Class V/IV).

[Navid A1]

Matthew Ace, on 21 June 2021 - 08:20 PM, said:

Really looking forward to the patch which introduces this. Just how much is the considerable burn duration boost to Class I though? 50%? Dying to know.

I'm also keeping fingers crossed that there will be thrust speed boost of Class I, and to lesser extent, II,and III (but certainly not buffed to extent of Class V/IV).

This is what we have proposed to PGI:




For reference:

The max jump height shown in mechlab is calculated as


Actual jump height in game is




where:
num_JJ = Number of JJs
thrust_z = Upward Thrust
thrust_init = Initial Upward speed
burn_dur = JJ Burn duration
Mech_ton = Mech tonnage
g = 9.8

Edited by Navid A1, 26 June 2021 - 07:31 PM.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 09:12 PM, said:

This is what we have proposed to PGI:

As a light advocate again, is there any reason for class 5 to be so weaker than class 4 despite being equal in tonnage? Class 2 and 3 are equal in tonnage and stats, so that looks right to me.

For class 4 and 5, maybe 130/70 would be a fair compromise and give class 4 +0.1s duration.

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 21 June 2021 - 09:26 PM, said:

As a light advocate again, is there any reason for class 5 to be so weaker than class 4 despite being equal in tonnage? Class 2 and 3 are equal in tonnage and stats, so that looks right to me.

For class 4 and 5, maybe 130/70 would be a fair compromise and give class 4 +0.1s duration.

Since the max jump height is also inversely affected by the mech tonnage (as I added to the post above), light mechs will be able to jump higher just due to the fact that they are lighter.
Wonky hitreg, overshooting jumps, and being catapulted to the moon become way more common if Class V JJ power becomes equal to Class IV.

End result is... Lights will be able to Jump higher than 40 tonners with the same number of jump jets.

Edited by Navid A1, 21 June 2021 - 10:27 PM.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 10:27 PM, said:

End result is... Lights will be able to Jump higher than 40 tonners with the same number of jump jets.

So a 25 tonner using 20% of its mech weight as JJs will be able to jump higher than a 50 tonner using 10% of its mech tonnage as JJs? That's some messed up comparison.

How about doing a equal percent % comparison? A 30 tonner with 10% investment in JJs should jump as high if not higher than a 50 tonner with 10% investment in JJs. This is true for heavies and assaults, a 60 tonner with 5% investment in JJs jumps as high as a 80 tonner with 5% investment in JJs.

Edited by Nightbird, 21 June 2021 - 10:43 PM.

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 21 June 2021 - 10:33 PM, said:

So a 25 tonner using 20% of its mech weight as JJs will be able to jump higher than a 50 tonner using 10% of its mech tonnage as JJs? That's some messed up comparison.

How about doing a equal percent % comparison? A 30 tonner with 10% investment in JJs should jump as high if not higher than a 50 tonner with 10% investment in JJs. This is true for heavies and assaults, a 60 tonner with 5% investment in JJs jumps as high as a 80 tonner with 5% investment in JJs.

Hope this clear things up.
Data in the table are considering no JJ node from skill tree.

This table only shows max height. There are other aspects to how a JJ affects movement that are also important... one being how fast you rise up... which is going to be massively in favor of lights.

Also, having JJs on your mech is more about how well you can get to places and how much height you'll need, rather than, hey, this mech has heavier JJs so it must jump exactly twice as high.


In game right now (actual ingame max height in meters):




With the proposed changes (actual ingame max height in meters):




With the proposed changes and 5 JJ duration skill nodes (actual ingame max height in meters):

Edited by Navid A1, 28 June 2021 - 05:13 PM.

[Dogstar]

Is the bump between 4 and 3 and 2 and 1 deliberate? I'm assuming it's to compensate for the weight increase in the jump jets?

i.e. looking at a mechs with 4 jump jets
a 60t mech with 4 tons of JJ jumps higher (60m) than a 55t mech with 2 tons of JJ (48m)
and a 90t mech with 8 tons of JJ jumps higher (54m) than an 85t mech with 4 tons of JJ (44m)

Edited by Dogstar, 22 June 2021 - 12:02 AM.

[Navid A1]

Dogstar, on 21 June 2021 - 11:50 PM, said:

Hmmm, I kind of feel like it would be better to distinguish class 2 and 3 from each other a bit more, they're practically identical. It's also shifted the problem of 40t mechs jumping higher than 35t mechs to be 60t mechs jumping higher than 55t mechs...

Should the initial thrust and burn duration for class 3 not be a little bit lower? Maybe 180 and 4.25? Just enough to smooth out that new bump between 55t and 60t?

60 tonners equip Class III jump jets which is twice the weight of Class IV jump jets equipped by 55 tonners... so... higher jump height is not without reason.

[Dogstar]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 11:54 PM, said:

60 tonners equip Class III jump jets which is twice the weight of Class IV jump jets equipped by 55 tonners... so... higher jump height is not without reason.

Yeah I realised after I'd posted it - please have a look at my updated post - just checking that I understand it now

Edited by Dogstar, 22 June 2021 - 12:12 AM.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 21 June 2021 - 11:02 PM, said:

Hope this clear things up.
Data in the table are considering no JJ node from skill tree.

This table only shows max height. There are other aspects to how a JJ affects movement that are also important... one being how fast you rise up... which is going to be massively in favor of lights.

Also, having JJs on your mech is more about how well you can get to places and how much height you'll need, rather than, hey, this mech has heavier JJs so it must jump exactly twice as high.

From the chart, a 30 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 64, 40 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 67, 50 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 64, a 60 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 49, a 80 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 47, a 100 tonner with 6% JJs jumps 39. Instead of a linear decrease, there are clear winners and losers.

[Dogstar]

Nightbird, on 22 June 2021 - 12:06 AM, said:

From the chart, a 30 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 64, 40 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 67, 50 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 64, a 60 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 49, a 80 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 47, a 100 tonner with 6% JJs jumps 39. Instead of a linear decrease, there are clear winners and losers.

Hmm, I think the disparity between the 30t and 40t in your example if because of a step issue between 3 and 4 JJ equipped because you chose 5% as a fraction.

If the 30t and 40t were equipped with 10% JJ then the disparity would go away as the 30t would have 6JJ for 114m and the 40t would have 8JJ for 120m...

Okay...

Looks like class V might be a bit underpowered after all...

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 22 June 2021 - 12:06 AM, said:

From the chart, a 30 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 64, 40 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 67, 50 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 64, a 60 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 49, a 80 tonner with 5% JJs jumps 47, a 100 tonner with 6% JJs jumps 39. Instead of a linear decrease, there are clear winners and losers.

Of course it is not linear... a 90-100 tonner jumping up 65 meters with 6 tons of JJs will create a lot of problems other than the mech getting to a better shooting position.

The goal is not to go back to poptart 90 tonner meta, but to allow bigger mechs to reach higher places.

[Dogstar]

@Navid Do you think it would be okay to improve the initial thrust of class V to match class IV? That would match the way class II and III have the same initial thrust for the same weight

I'm thinking that we'd end up with super flying light mechs - but would that be a problem? Maybe increasing light mech vertical agility would make them more popular and playable?

[Navid A1]

Dogstar, on 22 June 2021 - 12:31 AM, said:

@Navid Do you think it would be okay to improve the initial thrust of class V to match class IV? That would match the way class II and III have the same initial thrust for the same weight

I'm thinking that we'd end up with super flying light mechs - but would that be a problem? Maybe increasing light mech vertical agility would make them more popular and playable?

Avoiding hitreg problems. Almost all mechs in this game have really weird and snappy jump jet animation that only kick in when initial thrust is being applied.

The peak of vertical play performance is where 40 tonners are at. If lights perform on that level or better, then that instantly makes them viable.

Edited by Navid A1, 22 June 2021 - 12:54 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Wouldn't it be better to increase the duration and less thrust on IV/V if the goal was to improve JJ without buffing the poptarting?

Or is the idea to bring back some pop tarting on assaults? Really I dont see any of it right now.