83 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Monkey Lover, on 11 August 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

Makes you wonder why any military would make 100 ton mech when 3 20ton mechs can easily kill it lol

Beyond YueFei's answer of lift capacity, there's also the fact that assault 'Mechs were named assault 'Mechs for a reason. They were designed to be the hammers that broke enemy fortifications, bulling past fixed defenses and entrenched defenders that would rebuff any lesser machine with sheer, stupefying toughness and overwhelming firepower. Much like modern battleships*, assault 'Mechs are not at all meant to operate alone and unescorted. They're the center of a battle group designed to leverage their armor and weaponry while escorts mitigate their weakness to being outflanked and surrounded.

And frankly, while one assault 'Mech doesn't stand a great chance against three light 'Mechs, two assault 'Mechs that cover each other stand a better chance against six light 'Mechs. Putting two Fatlases back to back and telling the wolf pack "f@#$ around and find out" works better than a lot of folks think. The frontside of an Atlas is not a healthy place to be.

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*fully aware that "modern battleship" is an oxymoron. You know what I meant, and calling them aircraft carriers instead just wouldn't work.

[pbiggz]

1453 R, on 12 August 2021 - 08:40 AM, said:

Beyond YueFei's answer of lift capacity, there's also the fact that assault 'Mechs were named assault 'Mechs for a reason. They were designed to be the hammers that broke enemy fortifications, bulling past fixed defenses and entrenched defenders that would rebuff any lesser machine with sheer, stupefying toughness and overwhelming firepower. Much like modern battleships*, assault 'Mechs are not at all meant to operate alone and unescorted. They're the center of a battle group designed to leverage their armor and weaponry while escorts mitigate their weakness to being outflanked and surrounded.

And frankly, while one assault 'Mech doesn't stand a great chance against three light 'Mechs, two assault 'Mechs that cover each other stand a better chance against six light 'Mechs. Putting two Fatlases back to back and telling the wolf pack "f@#$ around and find out" works better than a lot of folks think. The frontside of an Atlas is not a healthy place to be.

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*fully aware that "modern battleship" is an oxymoron. You know what I meant, and calling them aircraft carriers instead just wouldn't work.

The irony being that modern "battleships" are quickly becoming dinosaurs, because its too easy to just sink them with missiles. Why risk a billion dollar monster ship in combat with another when you could just put a cruise missile in it's side from 100km away. I'm a big fan of the expanse, so, as a giant nerd, i spend some time looking into how naval combat might translate from the sea to space, and the shift away from expensive ships with huge guns to fast ships with lots of missiles is already happening.

That said,

1453 R, on 12 August 2021 - 08:40 AM, said:

And frankly, while one assault 'Mech doesn't stand a great chance against three light 'Mechs

This is only true of perhaps the biggest thicc boys. Most assault mechs can more than cover their own backs if a danger fish is trying to core them out.



The only reason this thread exists at all is because Mechagnome, and other likeminded players, don't know how to counter light mechs. The piranha is good, its not great. Its not a free win. I'm personally absolutely trash in them. Its overrepresented among lights because its cheap and easy to put a top level meta build on it for minimal amounts of cbills. Its danger is overrepresented in low tiers because players either don't understand how to counter lights, or, like Mechagnome, don't care to learn.

I have said it before that the common thread between alot of these threads popping up lately is players who have decided not to engage in any form of introspection, decreeing that that strategy they don't like is o v e r p o w e r e d. Whether its groups, brawlers vs snipers, or light mechs existing, this thread pretty much exactly tracks with that.

Buddy has clearly demonstrated with his tier list that he doesn't understand the class. He doesn't like getting killed by lights but he doesn't want to ever learn why it happens because doing so would require acknowledging that he isn't as good at the game as he says he is. Its a weird status/power dynamic thing.

[Kanil]

Monkey Lover, on 11 August 2021 - 10:59 PM, said:

This is because everyone knows where everyone else is because spawns are the same spot and maps are small. On a large map you can move quickly to head off an enemy lance if you know where they are.

No, this is because the playerbase largely understands how to deathball into the center. Making the maps bigger isn't going to change their behavior, and making the spawns random isn't going to change their behavior.

First thing people are going to do is group up, then they're going to march towards the middle. To "head off" an enemy lance, you'd have to locate it, group up your forces, and attack it before it can get to it's forces. Given that you don't know where it spawns either, and it does know where it's teammates have spawned, you basically have to do three things (locate, group, attack,) before it can do one thing that you yourself also have to do (group.)

This is not going to happen very often, and isn't going to radically improve the value of light 'mechs or "scouting" either. Furthermore, making maps four times larger will increase the amount of time players spend not fighting at the start of a game, in a game where you already spend a ton of time matchmaking/loading/walking/not fighting, and it will require four times as much work to make a single map, meaning we would have a map pool a quarter it's current size.

Just so you can occasionally gank a lance of bads who are too dumb to group up. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

[HauptmanT]

Monkey Lover, on 11 August 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

Makes you wonder why any military would make 100 ton mech when 3 20ton mechs can easily kill it lol

Well I mean, you dont use an assault to fight light mechs... you use them to ASSAULT fortified positions where armor is required.

It's all rock, paper, scissors.

Main body builds firing line (mediums and heavies). Assaults break the line. Lights hunt assaults.

[Nightbird]

HauptmanT, on 13 August 2021 - 07:10 AM, said:

Main body builds firing line (mediums and heavies). Assaults break the line. Lights hunt assaults.

Lights don't hunt assaults, lights hunt bad pilots that are self-isolating when their mechs can't even catch COVID.

[Haipyng]

Nightbird, on 13 August 2021 - 07:49 AM, said:

Lights don't hunt assaults, lights hunt bad pilots that are self-isolating when their mechs can't even catch COVID.

Lone Assaults in bad placements...#1 target.

[1453 R]

#1 target is actually damaged/open enemies in said isolated places. Many light 'Mechs get by primarily on chasing down and finishing off weakened targets that would otherwise escape and keep damaging your team. Jumping on a completely fresh assault, even one badly out of position and isolated, is generally something you do to put the fear of Satan into that pilot. If you can press that engagement hard enough to take the kill then by all means, but usually a fresh assault is too thicc for a single light 'Mech to successfully harvest before someone responds to the attempt. Or the assault gets a lucky shot in.

Whenever I'm dumb enough to pilot lights, I'll prioritize enemy walking wounded over anything out of position. I'm actively listening to calls of weakened enemies, and if I can find them and they're at all open I'll jump on them and try to end them. Taking out a wounded heavy even if it's in the fringes of its team formation and theoretically supported (spoilers: if you're good at being sneaky, you've generally got time for two alphas on something you jump on before the rest of the team wises up to you) does more for the victory than damaging-but-not-finishing a fresh assault sitting out somewhere it shouldn't be.

[Haipyng]

1453 R, on 13 August 2021 - 09:23 AM, said:

#1 target is actually damaged/open enemies in said isolated places. Many light 'Mechs get by primarily on chasing down and finishing off weakened targets that would otherwise escape and keep damaging your team.

Damaged open enemies is an end game goal for many lights most especially machine gun Piranhas. When I try lights its what I do. I scout until then and occasionally get a big assault out of position that I can get behind and stay behind. Until I have ripped up targets at the end, its my number 1 target. The really good light pilots seem to be able to take on most lone assaults that way. There are some fantastic light pilots out there.

[Nightbird]

Only the worst light pilots wait for damaged enemies to finish off.

[Curccu]

Haipyng, on 13 August 2021 - 08:20 AM, said:

Lone Assaults in bad placements...#1 target.

Lone assault with good pilot that is aware of you trying to sneak attacking him most likely mess you up.
Sure this game doesn't have many very good assault pilots anymore but lets say you are trying to ambush lets say Lizzee, you are probably gonna have bad results.

Edited by Curccu, 13 August 2021 - 10:27 AM.

[1453 R]

Nightbird, on 13 August 2021 - 10:21 AM, said:

Only the worst light pilots wait for damaged enemies to finish off.

Obviously it's better to be able to take somebody from fresh to dead. Light 'Mechs don't generally get that option - note the only ones anybody likes at any sort of competitive level are the ones that can half-assed take larger 'Mechs in a straight-up shootout. But we live in an imperfect world and this is an imperfect game. Especially in Puglandia. Throwing yourself away in a fight you know you can't win is even more useless than waiting to jump on damaged foes once the match has progressed, especially if you're in an MG splooger like a Lynx or Piranha. If enemies never misposition and leave themselves isolated, there's jack-all bupkis you can do in one of those. Your actual factual only choice is to wait for targets you can try to jump on and finish quickly.

[Monkey Lover]

Nightbird, on 12 August 2021 - 07:12 AM, said:

When you only have 12 pilots, you would as commander put them in 12 20 tonners?

You limited by how much you can put in that drop ship would be my view. 1200 tons lets say.. 12 atlas or 60 stealth fleas? haha i know what i would take.


Game really needs to go back to 3-3-3-3

[YueFei]

1453 R, on 13 August 2021 - 01:03 PM, said:

Obviously it's better to be able to take somebody from fresh to dead. Light 'Mechs don't generally get that option - note the only ones anybody likes at any sort of competitive level are the ones that can half-assed take larger 'Mechs in a straight-up shootout. But we live in an imperfect world and this is an imperfect game. Especially in Puglandia. Throwing yourself away in a fight you know you can't win is even more useless than waiting to jump on damaged foes once the match has progressed, especially if you're in an MG splooger like a Lynx or Piranha. If enemies never misposition and leave themselves isolated, there's jack-all bupkis you can do in one of those. Your actual factual only choice is to wait for targets you can try to jump on and finish quickly.

Well one thing I've noticed from being on the receiving end of skilled Light mechs reaming me in the rear/sides:
Although many Lights are grossly oversized, they are still often smaller/shorter than Mediums/Heavies/Assaults, meaning that they can play effectively from some areas of some maps which might have inadequate cover for poking from for anything other than a Light.

So there are some angles they can use, and also some covered paths they can ingress/egress through, bits of micro-cover, which would not be viable for the other weight classes.

I think with re-scale and map re-works, this could be kept in mind as a deliberate balancing design choice so that Lights have more options for movement and poking.

Monkey Lover, on 13 August 2021 - 01:09 PM, said:

You limited by how much you can put in that drop ship would be my view. 1200 tons lets say.. 12 atlas or 60 stealth fleas? haha i know what i would take.


Game really needs to go back to 3-3-3-3

You underestimate the value (and scarcity) of trained pilots.

You know how the Taliban largely countered the ANA airpower?

They assassinated the pilots on the ground.

[Monkey Lover]

Kanil, on 12 August 2021 - 11:31 AM, said:

No, this is because the playerbase largely understands how to deathball into the center. Making the maps bigger isn't going to change their behavior, and making the spawns random isn't going to change their behavior.

First thing people are going to do is group up, then they're going to march towards the middle. To "head off" an enemy lance, you'd have to locate it, group up your forces, and attack it before it can get to it's forces. Given that you don't know where it spawns either, and it does know where it's teammates have spawned, you basically have to do three things (locate, group, attack,) before it can do one thing that you yourself also have to do (group.)

This is not going to happen very often, and isn't going to radically improve the value of light 'mechs or "scouting" either. Furthermore, making maps four times larger will increase the amount of time players spend not fighting at the start of a game, in a game where you already spend a ton of time matchmaking/loading/walking/not fighting, and it will require four times as much work to make a single map, meaning we would have a map pool a quarter it's current size.

Just so you can occasionally gank a lance of bads who are too dumb to group up. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

Do you see any comp team "group up"? no this is because at this point this is all the players know how to do. They would learn quickly how to play the game if they were not promoted into the nascar track.


Haven't you played on new maps in the first few days where people don't know what to do or go? This is how it would play with random spawns and larger maps.

YueFei, on 13 August 2021 - 01:10 PM, said:

You underestimate the value (and scarcity) of trained pilots.

You know how the Taliban largely countered the ANA airpower?

They assassinated the pilots on the ground.

Guess we can make up fantasy reasons as it is a fantasy game to make it true. Personally i think in real life its easier to train someone than to make a 100 ton war machine.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 13 August 2021 - 01:18 PM.

[Nightbird]

Monkey Lover, on 13 August 2021 - 01:13 PM, said:

Guess we can make up fantasy reasons as it is a fantasy game to make it true. Personally i think in real life its easier to train someone than to make a 100 ton war machine.

In real life one M1 Abrams tank is 9 mil $ and training one F-22 pilot is 11 mil$.

[Kanil]

Monkey Lover, on 13 August 2021 - 01:13 PM, said:

Do you see any comp team "group up"? no this is because at this point this is all the players know how to do. They would learn quickly how to play the game if they were not promoted into the nascar track.

Haven't you played on new maps in the first few days where people don't know what to do or go? This is how it would play with random spawns and larger maps.

I have never (and will never) watch a comp match, so...

I don't understand the rest of your post. You say that people will learn how to play the game, and give an example of people being disorganized the first time they get a new map, before eventually learning... where to group up, where to find the enemy, where most of the conflict on the map happens.

Why would making the map bigger and adjusting the spawns change these things? The players are still going to learn where the important areas of the map are, they'll still congregate towards the middle, and they'll still group up regardless of how big the map is or where they spawn.

You insist that people will quickly learn how to play, but also say that the game will be different because people... won't learn how to play?

[Monkey Lover]

Nightbird, on 13 August 2021 - 01:26 PM, said:

In real life one M1 Abrams tank is 9 mil $ and training one F-22 pilot is 11 mil$.

I don't understand why you would mix a tank with a plane. Guess because of the weight? Why not say it cost 11 million to train a pilot to fly a 50-200 million dollar plane. That' 11 million sounds like US number too. Most countries are way less.

Kanil, on 13 August 2021 - 01:39 PM, said:

I have never (and will never) watch a comp match, so...

I don't understand the rest of your post. You say that people will learn how to play the game, and give an example of people being disorganized the first time they get a new map, before eventually learning... where to group up, where to find the enemy, where most of the conflict on the map happens.

Why would making the map bigger and adjusting the spawns change these things? The players are still going to learn where the important areas of the map are, they'll still congregate towards the middle, and they'll still group up regardless of how big the map is or where they spawn.

You insist that people will quickly learn how to play, but also say that the game will be different because people... won't learn how to play?

Guess we're done then. You don't understand how to play the game in any other way so you will never see anything different.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 13 August 2021 - 01:58 PM.

[1453 R]

Monkey Lover, the average Puglandian doesn't want to engage in small-unit penny packets. They want to have their entire team around them, because safety in numbers. They clump up and march to the middle because in a "unit" in which inter-pilot coordination is nonexistent and disorganized chaos is at a maximum, the only 'support' you can count on from your team is their physical presence attracting fire that might have come for you. There's a reason the independent wolfpacks you see are always on voice comms - without a modicum of coordination those tactics do not work, and the average Puglandian not only possesses no coordination, they actively and strenuously resists coordination.

Have you ever tried to convince Puglandians to try a different tactic than "rush the middle" over ingame voice chat? I have, several times. There's always two or three guys that are totally game and willing to play ball...and at least a lance's worth of folks that completely and utterly ignore you and just do what they always do regardless. There's also usually at least one or two guys who open up voice comms just long enough to call you names, insult your intelligence and/or your lineage, and instruct you that your plan is stupid, your 'Mech is stupid, your face is stupid, and they're gonna rush the middle like God intended.

Ironically? I actually have a very high win rate in the small, tiny handful of games where the team actually listens and we can coordinate a majority of it to follow a plan. There was one particular game I recall fondly in HPG where me and one other guy managed to convince about nine folks to hold the exterior spawn, set up firing lines and killing fields from the outer fringes of the map rather than rush to our deaths in the middle. One Highlander and a Commando ignored us, of course, and they died. I was running recon between the two disparate entrances to our chgosen killing ground in my Black Lanner and discovered an enemy lance that split off to take the long way around. I forestalled them and died.

But the team, overall? Won 12-5, handily dealt with the other team gagglefrogging in half a lance at a time because the enemy was confused and trying to figure out why we weren't charging with middle. With a modicum of patience and the magic of communication, we drew them to ground of our choice and shot them to death on it. It was great.

The ninety-nine other times I've tried to propose a plan other than "bumrush the middle and die like an idiot", I get told to sod off, and I either bumrush the middle with the rest of the idiots and contribute my firepower to the fight that's happening instead of pining for the fight I want, or I stubbornly stick to my plan alone and die for free. One of those is a worse idea than the other, and spoilers: it's the second option.

To get Puglandians to avoid clumping up, marching to the middle, and dying like idiots, you need to FORCE them to do something else. Thus far, Conquest alone has accomplished this objective. Incursion didn't do it. Escort didn't do it. Assault didn't do it. Domination demands you clump and die, and is the worst game mode ever invented in any game by any developer ever. There's a special room in Hell reserved exclusively for people who vote for Domination, for this exact reason. Random spawns won't do it. Bigger maps won't do it. As YueFei says, that just delays the clumping and center-bumrushing. You need to force people to declump by creating a situation in which they are required to be in multiple places on the map simultaneously. Conquest does that. Nothing else does.

So the real answer is "disable every single game mode except Conquest". But we all know how that would go, ne?

[1453 R]

Monkey Lover, on 13 August 2021 - 01:56 PM, said:

I don't understand why you would mix a tank with a plane. Guess because of the weight? Why not say it cost 11 million to train a pilot to fly a 50-200 million dollar plane. That' 11 million sounds like US number too. Most countries are way less.



Guess we're done then. You don't understand how to play the game in any other way so you will never see anything different.

YueFei was pointing out that it costs more to train one, single person to pilot a jet fighter well than it costs to purchase an entire main battle tank. Training people to operate machines as complex as jet fighters and BattleMechs (which, despite lore, are far closer to jet fighters in operation than to tanks) under battlefield conditions is extraordinarily expensive. Losing even one of those people is a blow.

Which was a tangent in the first place addressing your notion that training someone is easier than buying the thing they're trained on. That is not necessarily at all true, and I would not doubt for a minute that training a proper ace light 'Mech pilot costs significantly more than manufacturing the light 'Mech they drive.

[YueFei]

Monkey Lover, on 13 August 2021 - 01:13 PM, said:

Guess we can make up fantasy reasons as it is a fantasy game to make it true. Personally i think in real life its easier to train someone than to make a 100 ton war machine.

No, it really isn't. With a bit of study of military history, you may be shocked as to how much of a role skill and knowledge plays into it even in modern conflicts with modern weapons and technology. If anything, modern vehicles and weapons require more knowledge and skill to utilize properly. It doesn't matter how many jets and tanks and APCs and IFVs and artillery guns you have if your soldiers don't know how to use them properly.

Case in point:
https://en.wikipedia...i/Fall_of_Mosul
That's right, the side with a 15 to 1 numerical advantage, and actual tanks managed to lose whilst defending against attackers that had no armor to speak of.

Or, look at the history of aerial warfare. The vast vast majority of pilots just end up as targets getting shot down, never claiming even one victory for themselves. Only a small portion of pilots ever get a single kill, and an even smaller percentage of those pilots will make ace. What did the Germans and Japanese do with their best pilots? Fly 'em til they died. What did the USA do? Democratize those skills by pulling their best pilots from the front to bring home to train the rest. For the Japanese, once they'd lost the core of their most skilled pilots, although war-time production would end up building Zeros at a faster rate after Midway than they had been building them before it, they didn't have the skilled pilots to make use of those fighters. Building the fighters was comparatively easy, training more skilled pilots was much harder.