333 replies to this topic

[C337Skymaster]

denAirwalkerrr, on 15 October 2021 - 09:00 PM, said:

Do you want to pigeonhole people into "throw 9 random weapon systems on mech and have fun trying to operate this abomination" builds?

There is such thing called adaptation. Was really helpful for our species for last couple million years. Very recommend to learn how it works. I have been running 1050 for 5 years, even got to top 3 with it in last WC, hitting things just fine. I also run usually run 1 back armor on everything and just don't let lights get behind me using two wonderful things called map awareness and teammates.

I don't want anyone pigeon holed into anything, but if someone WANTS to put 9 different weapons on their 'mech and has the ability to group them and use 6 different weapon groups effectively, I want them to have that option, and not be punished for not boating a single weapon type. There are very few stock builds that have only one weapon type, so there should be similar build diversity among the playerbase of MWO as well.

[denAirwalkerrr]

C337Skymaster, on 15 October 2021 - 09:38 PM, said:

I don't want anyone pigeon holed into anything, but if someone WANTS to put 9 different weapons on their 'mech and has the ability to group them and use 6 different weapon groups effectively, I want them to have that option, and not be punished for not boating a single weapon type. There are very few stock builds that have only one weapon type, so there should be similar build diversity among the playerbase of MWO as well.

Why?

[denAirwalkerrr]

C337Skymaster, on 15 October 2021 - 09:31 PM, said:

See, there's a reason I don't own that 'mech. And there's a reason that in EVERY context, that 'mech is a terrible 'mech. It exists solely to be an example of a terrible 'mech. Same thing with the Assassin. I don't own any of those, either: A single Medium Laser, an LRM 5, and an SRM 2. That exists to be an objectively terrible 'mech. The fact that Assassins are terrifying is anathema. The ability to turn a Charger into an Awesome is just nuts. The amount of work involved in getting that to happen, not to mention the extra shielding required to protect onboard systems from the weapon's EM Pulse... And Sarna makes mention of the Targeting and Tracking system being overtaxed if you try to use the one that was meant for 5 small lasers.

On the other hand, I played the Warhammer-6R 100% stock the first time through, about 3 or 4 years ago, and I had a blast! I could use the PPCs at range, and if I was very careful to not use the PPCs while I was using the torso weapons, I could very nearly spam the torso weapons (cycling the mediums a little more slowly than the rest), and actually do enough damage at range to brawl down my opponents up close. The stock single heat sinks and stock armor were sufficient to keep the 'mech functional, even against some of the meta of the time. I mastered that 'mech from brand-new without changing a single thing. Not even a single point of armor, anywhere. I remember because I was really impressed with the 'mech's ability to do that well, since I was actively converting all of my IS 'mechs to DHS and max armor (or close to it), and that was one of the only 'mechs that I kept single heat sinks on.

"I play meta mechs because stock builds are trash from tabletop"
"I play only select variety of stock mechs from tabletop because some of them are trash"

[w0qj]

Dear MWO, is there any way that I can buy with real money for this?

Mauler MAL-2P(S) Special Variant, with +30% CBills bonus?

No, there is no such Special Variant right now, and I'm willing to pay real money for this!

Cheers

[Heavy Money]

C337Skymaster, on 15 October 2021 - 09:09 PM, said:

I enjoy stock builds, because otherwise every build is the same, (or nearly the same). Want lasers? 2 large, 6 medium. Want Ballistics? 2x 5's, 2x 10's. Want Missiles? Carry a TAG and as many missiles as possible, and nothing else, and carry so much ammo that if you were to explode, you'd take half the state of Mississippi with you.

Also, especially with regards to IS 'mechs, "Engineers" (fictional, but still) "took painstaking effort to make this build work", and here we come and pick components off a roulette wheel and go "whee!!!" It's so incredibly unfaithful to what we're supposedly simulating, it's frustrating that it just "works" without any real penalty.

And the fact remains: My stock builds were doing very well pre-patch, and started to do very poorly post-patch, and I was working on variations of the Orion-M at the time, so it wasn't even a change in which stock build I was using. The ON1-M pre-patch was an amazing 'mech (which surprised me, too! Honest! I wasn't expecting it to be any good. I was just trying it out). Post-patch, I couldn't show my face to another opponent without having the missile shoulder or CT cored in one shot, and blown out on the 2nd or 3rd shot. The ON1-MA is surprisingly worse than the -M, despite merely removing the NARC and adding Artemis with the free weight. The ON1-MB and -MD are objectively terrible MWO builds, both before and after the patch, and the -MC took some getting used to, and while it could dish out a lot of punishment, it really couldn't take a lot in return.

(Lots of posts since I stepped out, can't respond to it all.)

The purpose of the various weapon overhauls we're seeing is to increase build variety though? More mechs and builds are viable. Sure there's still trends, but that's the basic mechanical fact that boating lots of the same weapon is better than mixing lots of weapons, and bracket builds are bad.

We can say the stock loadouts were carefully considered in the lore, but we don't really have any way to make that work. The weapon stats that would be necessary for a certain weapon system to perform up to lore expectations in one stock loadout won't necessarily work for another. The whole thing is just incoherent to represent in a game. Most of these loadouts aren't even good in tabletop. The only way to make stock loadouts really be good is to basically do bespoke giga quirking of them, which would break any other loadout on the same mech. This would be almost impossible to get right.

Your stock builds did better before because lots of people ran crap loadouts. Now, the average loadout has improved. But stock loadouts are generally the worst of the worst, so you've been left behind. The simple fix is for you to change your playstyle. This may not be what you want to do, but the playstyle you are really after (stock loadouts being effective and balanced) is barely feasible even if it were the balance objective. The game just isn't what you want it to be, and it probably never could be. Why not play the game for what it is? Its quite good now!

Also, returning to the subject of large lasers, even if you disagree on all of the above or don't want to change your approach to the game, you still shouldn't be worried about it. This is because people are not currently running builds like large laser boats at all. The mechs getting these LL HSL quirks are barely fielded. So its not like something you are fighting is going to get stronger. What's actually going to happen is that people who are currently running more powerful builds will be switching to play these other mechs for the novelty factor. So you may now see some more LLs on the field, but it will be instead of nastier weapons for the most part.

[John Bronco]

Looks like a fun patch, unfortunately this thread has been utterly derailed by C337SkyMaster and his ideas, which can only be described as terrible, out of touch, and delusional.

Please keep up the good work Daeron and Matt!

Edited by John Bronco, 15 October 2021 - 10:15 PM.

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 15 October 2021 - 06:36 PM, said:

Typo?

WHM-BW:

• Added -10% ballistic heat
  
• Added -10% STD AC cooldown
  
• Added -10% STD AC velocity
  
• Added -10% LBX Spread
  
• Added 50% MG RoF
  
• Added 10% MG range

Yes. Will be 10%

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 15 October 2021 - 10:39 PM, said:

Yes. Will be 10%

Negative quirk?

[Thorqemada]

Imho Navid A1 sets an example for giving insight into thought and reason behind the changes - kudos to you Sir!

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 15 October 2021 - 10:49 PM, said:

Negative quirk?

Yes.. the negative velocity quirk is a typo... will be +10% velocity in game

[Saved By The Bell]

WHY VIRIDIAN BOG?
Its was perfect.


Look what you done with CAUSTIC VALLEY and POLAR. Nobody takes them.

HPG is so so playable (worse then before). Canyon is very bad (mine opinion) but popular.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 15 October 2021 - 11:48 PM.

[Navid A1]

Saved By The Bell, on 15 October 2021 - 11:46 PM, said:

WHY VIRIDIAN BOG?
Its was perfect.


Look what you done with CAUSTIC VALLEY and POLAR. Nobody takes them.

HPG is so so playable (worse then before). Canyon is very bad (mine opinion) but popular.

Changes to Bog are not overhauls... mainly a new area has been added to the map, where it was out of bounds before, and a couple ramps have been provided for easy access to a couple platforms, as well as cleaning some clutter that got mechs stuck.

[suffocater]

How am I to understand the Stalker 4N changes? Can I now fire all 6LL as compensation for loosing all the range quirks?

[Navid A1]

suffocater, on 16 October 2021 - 12:04 AM, said:

How am I to understand the Stalker 4N changes? Can I now fire all 6LL as compensation for loosing all the range quirks?

The STK-4N post patch will be able to fire 6xLL, 4xERLL or 4xLPL with no heat penalty

Edited by Navid A1, 16 October 2021 - 12:11 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

denAirwalkerrr, on 15 October 2021 - 09:43 PM, said:

"I play meta mechs because stock builds are trash from tabletop"
"I play only select variety of stock mechs from tabletop because some of them are trash"

The ironing here is truly, truly delicious.

I mean if you understand many stock builds are not good so you are only seeking out the "good" ones.

Any comments about mechlab, customisation et al. instantly make all ones points completely invalid.

[suffocater]

Navid A1, on 16 October 2021 - 12:10 AM, said:

The STK-4N post patch will be able to fire 6xLL, 4xERLL or 4xLPL with no heat penalty

Thx for the clarification.

[Clay Endfield]

So... is the Gargoyle-E going to get it's overlooked +8 structure quirk to the CT, or not?

And I'm sorry, I myself adore the LGR + PPC builds, but these +2 ER PPC quirks on Gauss based mechs is getting absolutely ridiculous. They shouldn't be so basic or common place. I get the King Crab, sure, it has wonky hitboxes and gawd awful ballistic hardpoints... But the MAD-4L? I've consistently hit over 800 damage in that beast BONE STOCK, and now it's getting a buff?!!!

Gonna sound weird, but I'm not very enthusiastic about that. The -15% Heat Gen quirk was negligible because it's heat efficiency pre-buff was already so damn good that it never feared a Crit Heat warning to begin with; a +10% Cooldown on Gauss? I can support that.

The +2 ER PPC HSL quirk on a mech with -15% Energy Heat, dual gauss, ECM, JJs, and a crap load of armor? That's just obscene. Completely and utterly obscene and as an accomplished and avid MAD-4L pilot I am totally against it. 50 pinpoint damage at 810 meters should be tricky to achieve and weighed down by compromise; like a NSR-9J sporting 3x ER-PPCs & 2x LGRs, and only packing 14 DHS to manage the heat and suffering from a ton of armor stripping. Or a Banshee 3E running 2x LGR & 3x PPCs on hip mounts and coughing up the 810 meter alpha range. Or a MAD-5A packing 2x LGR & 2x HPPCs, and all the crippling circumstances that build requires...

... But just giving it to a mech that was heavily blessed to begin with? Please don't do this. Let the KGC-001 trial it out before you give it to the MAD-4L. The King Crab can use all the help it can get. In my experience, the 4L doesn't need the buff, and the imbalance this is going to bring to the meta once the player base realizes what they have could influence future decisions regarding a +2 ER PPC HSL quirk. Potentially preventing a mech that could REALLY use the buff (Like the KGC-001) from getting the quirk it needs to stand apart.

Just from a math standpoint, you can build a 4L with 2x ER-PPC, 2x GR, 13x DHS, LFE 300, Endo, ECM, 1 JJ, & 5 tons of ammo, and only have to reduce the max armor of the mech by 6 points (just set cockpit to 12; max everywhere else). And you get a mech that (BEFORE Skills) maintains over a 50% Heat Efficiency; can Alpha for 50 pinpoint @ 810 meters 4x in quick succession before hitting crit heat levels (then just shed heat while abusing the not too insignificant ranged firepower of dual Gauss); packs a JJ and ECM; has far from awful hitboxes/hardpoint locations; packs a motherload of armor.

It is so broken. Nothing else can do what it does, nothing else can even get close. It is so incredibly overpowered that I feel dirty thinking about playing my beloved 4L again.

Edited by Clay Endfield, 16 October 2021 - 12:51 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

C337Skymaster, on 15 October 2021 - 08:29 PM, said:

Honestly, ASH, I can't see you as anything other than a ***** after the Faction Match where your team was mopping up us Pugs, and you felt it necessary to openly mock and belittle myself and another player in All-Chat. I've got a video of that match around here somewhere, but it's been so long that it's buried in a folder somewhere, and I'm having trouble finding it. If I ever do, I'll be able to prove this memory.
).

Yes the old "I have video of this", then later in this thread "I have video of that".

Heard it 100s of times and truly nothing ground breaking.

Sorry you did not heed the Faction Play warnings and brought your team down! Actually you should be the one that's sorry, the warning screens are explicitly clear.

[Navid A1]

Clay Endfield, on 16 October 2021 - 12:31 AM, said:

So... is the Gargoyle-E going to get it's overlooked +8 structure quirk to the CT, or not?

November

Clay Endfield, on 16 October 2021 - 12:31 AM, said:

And I'm sorry, I myself adore the LGR + PPC builds, but these +2 ER PPC quirks on Gauss based mechs is getting absolutely ridiculous. They shouldn't be so basic or common place. I get the King Crab, sure, it has wonky hitboxes and gawd awful ballistic hardpoints... But the MAD-4L? I've consistently hit over 800 damage in that beast BONE STOCK, and now it's getting a buff?!!!

Gonna sound weird, but I'm not very enthusiastic about that. The -15% Heat Gen quirk was negligible because it's heat efficiency pre-buff was already so damn good that it never feared a Crit Heat warning to begin with; a +10% Cooldown on Gauss? I can support that.

The +2 ER PPC HSL quirk on a mech with -15% Energy Heat, dual gauss, ECM, JJs, and a crap load of armor? That's just obscene. Completely and utterly obscene and as an accomplished and avid MAD-4L pilot I am totally against it. 50 pinpoint damage at 810 meters should be tricky to achieve and weighed down by compromise; like a NSR-9J sporting 3x ER-PPCs & 2x LGRs, and only packing 14 DHS to manage the heat and suffering from a ton of armor stripping. Or a Banshee 3E running 2x LGR & 3x PPCs on hip mounts and coughing up the 810 meter alpha range. Or a MAD-5A packing 2x LGR & 2x HPPCs, and all the crippling circumstances that build requires...

... But just giving it to a mech that was heavily blessed to begin with? Please don't do this. Let the KGC-001 trial it out before you give it to the MAD-4L. The King Crab can use all the help it can get. In my experience, the 4L doesn't need the buff, and the imbalance this is going to bring to the meta once the player base realizes what they have could influence future decisions regarding a +2 ER PPC HSL quirk. Potentially preventing a mech that could REALLY use the buff (Like the KGC-001) from getting the quirk it needs to stand apart.

Just from a math standpoint, you can build a 4L with 2x ER-PPC, 2x GR, 13x DHS, LFE 300, Endo, ECM, 1 JJ, & 5 tons of ammo, and only have to reduce the max armor of the mech by 6 points (just set cockpit to 12; max everywhere else). And you get a mech that (BEFORE Skills) maintains over a 50% Heat Efficiency; can Alpha for 50 pinpoint @ 810 meters 4x in quick succession before hitting crit heat levels (then just shed heat while abusing the not too insignificant ranged firepower of dual Gauss); packs a JJ and ECM; has far from awful hitboxes/hardpoint locations; packs a motherload of armor.

It is so broken. Nothing else can do what it does, nothing else can even get close. It is so incredibly overpowered that I feel dirty thinking about playing my beloved 4L again.

The consensus in the group was the opposite... MAD-4L needs all the help it can get since it is struggling heavily. (some argued that it did not need HSL quirks and only Gauss CD will suffice... but the majority voted for the current set of quirks)

Edited by Navid A1, 16 October 2021 - 01:07 AM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

justcallme A S H, on 15 October 2021 - 07:18 PM, said:

So basically the vast majority of the community likes: HPG / Canyon / Polar

Dislikes: Caustic.


And you think the complete opposite as always. Sounds like complete confirmation Francois has everything completely right! I am very happy to know this.

PLEASE can I have some of what PGI, Francois and the Cauldron are smoking!

Clearly they have engaged navel gazing with a +5 HSL bonus with yet another round of ever increasingly destructive changes

The fact that the Commando has quirked to be even harder to kill - c.f. Ash's diatribe that the COM didn't need anything a couple of months back, just brings to question what game they are playing and in reality, what planet they are living on?????

On a more serious note; PGI did need input from the Community as to what direction would be best to follow having ignored year's worth of fine suggestions from all quarters. What we appear to have now is a ridiculous clique that are focused on what THEY feel is right and then justify their decisions so vehemently that they actually believe them to be true, regardless of all the feedback.

By all means, try to support beneficial change, but you have to accept that you will get it wrong and have to go back and readdress those aspects instead of this blinded approach to simply keep living in denial.

This thread has a suggestion that feedback is wrong and that the cauldron or at least certain members are unquestionably right and that people's feedback will drive others away couldn't be further from the truth - the dogpile approach being applied and the forum bullying (just watch to see the same people defending the same decisions and attacking posters when they dare to say anything off the scope of the vocal minority) is what will kill the game. It's limping along now compared to the great numbers it used to carry, because of the introspective and destructive attitude being enforced that is the preferred way to ignore the majority of the players.