174 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

The level of ignorance is truly amassing LOL. I wonder how much does it help with player retention? Anyway. Just drop 30 mechs on each side on your test servers for a day and you will be mindblown.

If y'all don't like the game, don't force yourself to play it. You won't have fun. Nobody else will either. Ppl are telling you how you can up your game and enjoy it more if you choose to stick around. That ain't "ignorance", and if you're an *** to people for no reason, then people won't miss you if you go.

[GoodTry]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Forth: Size of maps. It is pretty simple actually - maps a WAY TO BIG. Which leads to gaps in front line, which leads to people moving forward for actual gameplay and not finding anyone to engage therefor nascarring around and creating all this mess. There is just not enough mechs on the map to create a frontline. Period. You can't teach people to hold the line if there is none. Especially considering previous point when all the mechs have WAY different speed because of tonnage. Based on the size of the maps and amount of light mechs i presume this game needs at least 20vs20 maybe even up to 25 or 30 players on one side to create frontlines and actual tactical combat. Or maps should be shrunk to the seize where 12 mechs of this composition will be actually able to saturate them and not to feel like a drop in the ocean leading to all other issues.

Your complaints 1-3 are basically non-issues once you get used to them, in my opinion. Headshots are rare, and LRMs and light mechs are totally manageable once you get the hang of the game, although I agree it's a rough transition.

I completely agree with your point 4 though. Many of the maps are way too big. I'm not fond of waiting for the game to load, queuing for 2 minutes, and watching a drop animation, just so I can then walk pointlessly across an oversized map to reach the same couple of spots that the fights almost always happen.

I am not here to play Walking Simulator Online.

But yeah, as evidenced by this thread most players like the walking and the massive maps. I've had this discussion repeatedly for years and I still don't get it.

[Kanil]

Where do you find opponents who can reliably headshot you enough that you complain about it, but also can't reliably hit Piranhas enough that you complain about them?

[Andrewlik]

pbiggz, on 27 October 2021 - 12:17 PM, said:

If y'all don't like the game, don't force yourself to play it. You won't have fun. Nobody else will either. Ppl are telling you how you can up your game and enjoy it more if you choose to stick around. That ain't "ignorance", and if you're an *** to people for no reason, then people won't miss you if you go.

This is actually quite common behavior amongst WOT players in my experience (I used to be one lol)

[Horseman]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

First: Headshots. I understand that it is lore accurate but ffs can you balance them out? Is it that hard to not make them the part of the game. Where is the fun in both getting headshotted and getting a random kill that you will not even get damage from?

Have you seen the hitbox maps? Headshots are balanced out by being quite damn difficult to achieve on purpose, especially against a moving target. If you're getting headshotted often, you may be staring straight at your opponent too much. Even a little torso rotation can reduce the risk of a headshot substantially.

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Second: LRM. I mean i get it - lore but man. WHY CAN'T WE AT LEAST BE ABLE TO HIDE BEHIND BUILDINGS? This is more idiotic then artillery in WoT. And they are called all the censored words there - i presume here also. Is it that hard to balance them?

WTF? Missiles don't ignore terrain - you are able to hide behind buildings, rocks etc, if they are sufficiently tall to block the missile trajectory (protip: if you're in the lurmer's LOS, his trajectory will be flatter than if he was raining at you with indirect fire). In addition, you have dedicated anti-missile systems (with skill tree upgrades), electronic countermeasure equipment (with mandatory skill tree upgrades) AND the Radar Deprivation skill nodes (when maxed out, Radar Derp breaks enemy locks as soon as you leave LOS).
Grab a Kit Fox C and enjoy having ECM and triple AMS to eat the missiles for bonus match score.
Or learn to not go out into wide open areas unless necessary and keep close to reasonably sized cover that you can duck behind as soon as you get the missile alert.

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Third: Close combat vs light Mechs. Should i explain why it is pure cancer especially if your team doesn't pay attention? You don't even need o reinvent the wheel - in old MW were divisions so those cancer shitheads on their piranhas can go kill each other. Why do we have to deal with that? Is it that hard to make mixed divisions with like light+med, med+heavy and heavy+assault. Will be much more enjoyable to fight similar tonnage mechs then trying to find some stealth armor locust hiding in a corner in a skirmish.

It's only "pure cancer" if your team doesn't pay attention. If your team pays attention, the light mechs have the approximate lifespan of a snowball in Hell.

Edited by Horseman, 27 October 2021 - 01:04 PM.

[pinetemplar]

RickySpanish, on 27 October 2021 - 11:56 AM, said:

Ssshh! How are we supposed to trick new players into staying if they find out the whole show is held together by fishing wire and Kyle the intern?

Freaking new it. Dam.

[pattonesque]

Like, just as an example for headshots, I would say the Atlas is one of the more vulnerable mechs to a headshot simply because everyone knows where to aim -- the left eye. Still, look how tiny the hitbox for it is compared to the rest of the mech



so you have to hit that tiny hitbox while the mech is bobbing about, twisting, you're being shot yourself, etc. it happens rarely and usually only with big PPLFD alphas. There's a reason why the headshot challenge for the most recent event was to get one (1) headshot.

[pinetemplar]

Horseman, on 27 October 2021 - 12:58 PM, said:

Have you seen the hitbox maps? Headshots are balanced out by being quite damn difficult to achieve on purpose, especially against a moving target. If you're getting headshotted often, you may be staring straight at your opponent too much. Even a little torso rotation can reduce the risk of a headshot substantially.

WTF? Missiles don't ignore terrain - you are able to hide behind buildings, rocks etc, if they are sufficiently tall to block the missile trajectory (protip: if you're in the lurmer's LOS, his trajectory will be flatter than if he was raining at you with indirect fire). In addition, you have dedicated anti-missile systems (with skill tree upgrades), electronic countermeasure equipment (with mandatory skill tree upgrades) AND the Radar Deprivation skill nodes (when maxed out, Radar Derp breaks enemy locks as soon as you leave LOS).
Grab a Kit Fox C and enjoy having ECM and triple AMS to eat the missiles for bonus match score.
Or learn to not go out into wide open areas unless necessary and keep close to reasonably sized cover that you can duck behind as soon as you get the missile alert.

It's only "pure cancer" if your team doesn't pay attention. If your team pays attention, the light mechs have the approximate lifespan of a snowball in Hell.

You just made the headshot problem even worse they i described it LOL. I am not arguing that you can actually make steps to minimize them or that they happen every match - my point is when it happens it makes game worse not better. NO ONE has argued against this so i presume all agree LOL.

Yes "technically" you are correct - indeed there are obstacles that provide complete cover from LRM but it feels like 90% of obstacles don't cause when i press my mech against them LRMs still hit my mech maybe due to weird angles when fired without direct line of site when they literally fall from the sky. And i definitely will look into all this ecm staff although i believe not all mechs have them.

See you argument "team doesn't pay attention" is also technically correct but completely wrong. In Tier 5 matches they don't sooooo yes it is a problem. And maybe i just have to get used to it but for now it is still a problem for me and i presume for most beginners.

[justcallme A S H]

GoodTry, on 27 October 2021 - 12:29 PM, said:

Your complaints 1-3 are basically non-issues once you get used to them, in my opinion. Headshots are rare, and LRMs and light mechs are totally manageable once you get the hang of the game, although I agree it's a rough transition.

I completely agree with your point 4 though. Many of the maps are way too big. I'm not fond of waiting for the game to load, queuing for 2 minutes, and watching a drop animation, just so I can then walk pointlessly across an oversized map to reach the same couple of spots that the fights almost always happen.

I am not here to play Walking Simulator Online.

But yeah, as evidenced by this thread most players like the walking and the massive maps. I've had this discussion repeatedly for years and I still don't get it.

Agree.

1-3 is just a learning thing. Watch some gameplay videos or skilled streamers etc. Sort you on those issues in a couple of hours.

4 - absolutely some of the uber large maps are just too much but it is what it is and doesn't really impact gameplay much other than the first 90s where you're doing walking and not a lot else. That said it is only a handful of maps. As for adding more players... 12v12 on the small maps is crowded enough. Plus the game/engine isn't gonna deal with more than 24 well anyway so that'll never happen

[w4ldO]

all your "issues" will become non-existent after a month of playing

[S 0 L E N Y A]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Made it to tier 4 in a week

This explains a lot

[Capt Deadpool]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

See the problem with "experienced players" is they are well adapted to the current state of events and they definitely wouldn't think outside of the box.

Well, there are experienced players, and then there are experienced players. We all have our own biases about how the game should be balanced, but I have played with several of the Cauldron folks (those who are helping PGI to rebalance the game) for years, and I can say that the majority of the ones I have played with and interact with are aware of and sympathetic towards new player struggles, even creating alt accounts to keep tabs on the state of the game at lower tiers. Many of us are aware that keeping the game alive requires attention be paid to the concerns of new players.

The trouble is more that this is a game late, late, late in its life-cycle, and is coping with the things that happen to old games, and the development team is not remotely as "hands-on" and passionate about the state of the game or the wishes of its remaining community as dev teams of other games. It's basically on life-support at the moment. However, The Cauldron is basically taking the place of what would be a more hands-on dev team that listens to the community in another game, and they have made some changes that have freshened up the game, as well as some recent map changes by recently hired designer.

It's a pretty unique game, I'd suggest sticking with it as it becomes more enjoyable after you get through the learning curve.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 27 October 2021 - 01:51 PM.

[pattonesque]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 01:21 PM, said:

You just made the headshot problem even worse they i described it LOL. I am not arguing that you can actually make steps to minimize them or that they happen every match - my point is when it happens it makes game worse not better. NO ONE has argued against this so i presume all agree LOL.

Yes "technically" you are correct - indeed there are obstacles that provide complete cover from LRM but it feels like 90% of obstacles don't cause when i press my mech against them LRMs still hit my mech maybe due to weird angles when fired without direct line of site when they literally fall from the sky. And i definitely will look into all this ecm staff although i believe not all mechs have them.

See you argument "team doesn't pay attention" is also technically correct but completely wrong. In Tier 5 matches they don't sooooo yes it is a problem. And maybe i just have to get used to it but for now it is still a problem for me and i presume for most beginners.

For the headshot thing, honestly, I don't have an opinion on it one way or the other. They simply don't happen often enough to affect games. Heck, I asked about them in high-level competitive matches where everyone's got good aim and knows hitboxes, and apparently they rarely happen there too.

For the LRM thing, this will come with map knowledge. You'll pretty quickly be able to tell which cover works against LRMs and which does not. I do agree that there are a number of pieces of cover which feel like they should protect against LRMs and do not, but these are relatively rare. Put it this way: I'm a pretty decent player and I've died to LRMs -- as in, the LRM was the primary reason for my death, and not "an LRM took down my CT when I was being fired on by seven mechs at the end of a stomp"-- maybe like twice in the past few months? What you could also do is invest a few points in radar deprivation nodes, which will cause enemy LRM boats to lose targeting on you much more quickly when you break LOS.

Light mechs are difficult to hit in general, but this is by design, as they carry very little armor. Certain of them do carry quite a bit of firepower, like Piranhas, but like ... take the PIR-3 for example. It has a max of about 23 armor on its CT before skill trees come into play. With max survival that is less than 30 points of armor on the most heavily-armored part of the mech. The number of medium, heavy, and assault mechs which can blow through those 30 points in one shot is, well, most of them these days. And that's not taking into account the even weaker side torsos or legs. What happens at lower tiers (and at higher ones too although less often) is that people see a light mech and they freak out because they're difficult to hit, and either their aim completely collapses or they just ... stop firing back at it. It's frustrating when your team doesn't pay attention to a light, but if you keep in mind that you only need to get one or two good alphas on it to kill it, cripple it, or drive it away, then it becomes much less of an issue.

Let me give you an example, right. Mostly I play meta builds, and the one I like quite a bit for the FS9-A, a light mech, is one of my top performers -- 8 SPL and a big engine. I average about 433 damage in it. Pretty good! Sometimes, though, I like to mess around and play weirdo builds, like a Charger-3K with a humongous engine, lots of JJs, two SRM6A, and 4 MPL. Not a lot of firepower there! I average 457 damage in it, 'cause in order to make an impact in a light mech you have to put in a lot of work, and you only have to round the wrong corner once to get completely owned by a big alpha. Assault mechs have a much easier time putting out damage, even bad ones.

Edited by pattonesque, 27 October 2021 - 01:50 PM.

[Horseman]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 01:21 PM, said:

You just made the headshot problem even worse they i described it LOL. I am not arguing that you can actually make steps to minimize them or that they happen every match - my point is when it happens it makes game worse not better. NO ONE has argued against this so i presume all agree LOL.

Nah. Headshots are something you might be able to deliberately pull off in the right conditions and eliminate an enemy mech - usually when it shuts down due to overheating - but otherwise too rare to make a substantial difference or be remotely close to an annoyance.
Obviously, don't stare into Dual Heavy Gauss, that's not healthy.

Something you'll want to note, apart from the hitbox size and manual aiming (both of which substantially reduce the frequency of headshots compared to the 1/36 chance in tabletop - especially when most head hitboxes can only be hit from the front as opposed to all around the mech), MWO also has made changes to head health that, provided you max your head armor, allow your mech to shrug off damage that would decapitate you in tabletop. There, a single shot that does more than 12 points of damage is sufficient - meaning Gauss Rifles and AC20s are able to do that instantly. In MWO, your head gets 15 structure points and 18 armor points (if maxed) - Gauss Rifles may open the armor, but can't kill you, and don't think PGI ever implemented cockpit criticals that would be the only way for an AC20 to one-shot your cockpit against this health pool.

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Yes "technically" you are correct - indeed there are obstacles that provide complete cover from LRM but it feels like 90% of obstacles don't cause when i press my mech against them LRMs still hit my mech maybe due to weird angles when fired without direct line of site when they literally fall from the sky.

There still is an arc. You need a higher piece of cover to shield your whole mech, but if it's high enough to block your LOS then it's high enough to block part of the incoming missile flight.

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And i definitely will look into all this ecm staff although i believe not all mechs have them.

Correct, but if you need a crutch then ECM is there to be used.
If you pick an Inner Sphere mech with ECM, it can also equip Stealth Armor - another upgrade that takes up some slots on the mech, but prevents you from being detected or locked (unless with very specific equipment) when it's engaged.

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See you argument "team doesn't pay attention" is also technically correct but completely wrong. In Tier 5 matches they don't sooooo yes it is a problem. And maybe i just have to get used to it but for now it is still a problem for me and i presume for most beginners.

Well, beginners sure but mostly for people who are too bad to get out of Tier 5 on their own - we have plenty of those, and they were failing at it even when the pilot rating system was little more than a glorified XP bar.
Sure, LRMs and light mechs seem punishing when you have not internalized the means of countering them, but they only really prey on mistakes that you can learn to avoid (or at least, minimize the impact of) - and once you do, both become substantially less threatening.

Edited by Horseman, 27 October 2021 - 01:57 PM.

[RickySpanish]

S 0 L E N Y A, on 27 October 2021 - 01:33 PM, said:

This explains a lot

That's actually not terrible for a new player.

[VeeOt Dragon]

OP your first mistake was staying with WoT for that long, seriously i played for maybe a year (back when it was a new game on console) and i just couldn't stand the toxic community. besides War Thunder is a far better tank combat game anyway

now all **** posting aside as most folks have already pointed out the majority of your trouble comes from just inexperience and trying to see MWO as something like WoT. it isn't by far. its an entirely different animal all its own. despite being made by the same team as MW:5, MWO plays very different. they might as well be two different games (i like MW:5 but it plays best with a number of mods). give it time and you will learn the ins and outs of the game. i have been saying for years that the NPE needs major work and the Academy is barely enough to get even a hint of how the game works. have fun while you are down there in newbie tiers. honestly Tier 3 is the most fun since you are out of the "just learning the game" tiers and because once you get into Tier 1 it just gets boring with the same five builds and only maybe a dozen different mechs even ever used.

so yeah try out some of the suggestions and then think about it a bit. if you still feel like MWO isn't for you then move on. you shouldn't force yourself to play a game you aren't having fun with. also remember that you can try out a mech from the store by clicking "view in mechlab" tab. that lets you fiddle around with build ideas before you actually commit to it. you can also try your build out on the testing grounds all without costing any C-Bills or MC. (i suggest testing builds on the hotter maps like Terra Therma so you get a feel for how it will preform under the worst conditions.)

good luck and i hope you find joy in the game, if not well it wont hurt anyone's feelings if you leave.

[feeWAIVER]

I agree with the OP that many maps are too big.
It's not uncommon to spend 5 minutes moving around a map before any big fights break out.
It doesn't help that every recent patch seems to be driving the game into a slower meta and longer ranged eurostyle of hiding behind pug armor and trading ppc volleys.

[CFC Conky]

pinetemplar, on 27 October 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

<I played WoT a lot more then 25k matches with 60% winrate. Played some MW5 and decided to give this game a try. Made it to tier 4 in a week and well it is a pile of rotting **** so far.

...

Can I have your stuff?

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[LordNothing]

all these are bogus.

headshots are rare. unless there is an event requirement to get headshots, most players usually find easier ways to dispatch the enemy. if you find yourself shut down in the middle of a brawl, then you deserve it. manage yo heat!

lerms have the most hard counters of any weapon in the game. you can equip ams/radar derp/ecm/stealth/use cover better. thats all you need to do.

squirrels are defeatable. the first weapon is alertness. be ready to move when the match starts, dont doddle and keep your head on a swivel, bring a uav if you are in a slow mech. never stop looking for squirrels. second weapon is positioning. be within weapons range of your team at all times, rather than hiding at the edge of the map camping or lerming, when i pilot a squirrel i look for that and can follow it back to its source and usually find somone grossly ill equiped to fight me off. third weapon is stay calm. if you panic you are more likely to miss. unlock your arms because its easier to track a squirrel with arm weapons. do not chase the squirrel, its harder to hit accurately if you are moving, so stop and focus on your aim. often you will get 5 guys panicking all at the same time and squirrels just love that because it means the team damage will flow. your fourth weapon is your actual weapons, shoot the squirrel, aim for about hip level to hit the legs, and if you miss you might hit the ct. if you still have problems with squirels try a faster mech or weapons that are good at killing squirrels (streaks, srms, pulse lasers, etc). this topic has spawned entire threads full of useful tactics and whiny bad assault pilots.

map size is fine for 12 players.

learning curve, this game has a steep one.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 October 2021 - 05:03 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

feeWAIVER, on 27 October 2021 - 03:43 PM, said:

I agree with the OP that many maps are too big.
It's not uncommon to spend 5 minutes moving around a map before any big fights break out.
It doesn't help that every recent patch seems to be driving the game into a slower meta and longer ranged eurostyle of hiding behind pug armor and trading ppc volleys.

Some of the maps should/could also be divided up with different spawn points while keeping the original large map. Forest Colony is the main one that comes to mind. Of course some of those large maps are also used in FP in non-Siege drops.

MWO and the MPBT 3025 series (EGA, Solaris, EA) have/had a stiff learning curve. The other MW games did too but a player would be facing AI, and most of those games the difficulty would be switched up. And the Academy was a late addition but is really rudimentary with no actual AI opponents. And the Training Grounds have the same 8 basic IS mech statues.

Nor does the game have launching chat rooms or bars (MPBT Solaris) where players could conjugate, and potentially provide or seek assistance, especially now that private lobbies do not require/cost premium time. Almost everything has to be initiated outside the game.

But even that, the anchor of the game should have been Faction Play, as it actually provided one of the main reasons to form and keep units running.