107 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 07 November 2021 - 09:49 AM, said:

The better argument to make is that it would just make things boring/homogenous if all lights got bigger but tankier. Having a few outliers like the Urbie keeps things interesting, but spreading that to other lights (even in lesser amounts) would detract from the special feeling of those outliers. Generally I think balance is done best when it focuses on making things different from one other, excluding rare circumstances where those differences might be unworkable.

I agree with things being different, but not to the point that it is problematic. How problematic? That one weapon system can invalidate their existence. That people feel the need to go for streaks just so it's not frustrating to deal with them. You could rework the streaks sure, but its core concept is still making it easy to hit, it will always be a toe into invalidating these problem lights. Quite simply, it's like this:

Spoiler

LordNothing, on 07 November 2021 - 09:32 AM, said:

the blackjack however is not one of them. its just too damn slow. i wouldnt mind seeing an engine cap buff so mechs like the arrow can close the distance and get into machine gun range sooner. if you hold back and trade with lasers or lppcs or whatever, your arms usually fall off before you can use the machine guns. just because its as slow as an urbie doesnt mean its as good as an urbie.

The low-engine and slowness of it, at least to me, felt like why we have to put in big guns on it the first place. If we're going to make it faster, why not just play other 45-tonners?

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 07 November 2021 - 10:05 AM, said:

I agree with things being different, but not to the point that it is problematic. How problematic? That one weapon system can invalidate their existence. That people feel the need to go for streaks just so it's not frustrating to deal with them. You could rework the streaks sure, but its core concept is still making it easy to hit, it will always be a toe into invalidating these problem lights. Quite simply, it's like this:

Yeah, Streaks are indeed a very good example of the difference being unworkable (appropriate to this thread). I've complained about the mechanics since 2012 to no avail.

Though I do want to point out that there is a difference between being a bit easier to hit fast targets with and being a poor man's aimbot. Pulse lasers are a good example of being good at dealing with lights without causing the issues that Streaks do.

[caravann]

But we who are using light mechs having the same problem. When we walk forward and encounter medium mechs we ask ourself what we can hide behind. If we have a light mech with us it can use the speed to glass tank the glass cannons. But when a light mech has less than 145kph it is a medium mech with armor of a light mech.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 07 November 2021 - 10:11 AM, said:

Yeah, Streaks are indeed a very good example of the difference being unworkable (appropriate to this thread). I've complained about the mechanics since 2012 to no avail.

Though I do want to point out that there is a difference between being a bit easier to hit fast targets with and being a poor man's aimbot. Pulse lasers are a good example of being good at dealing with lights without causing the issues that Streaks do.

It's good if you're good at aiming. But the thing is that lights take advantage of the fact that players are generally bad shot. While thats fair, that is also frustrating, why they default to auto-aim. But one mechanical advantage to another, that's just part of the game -- lights are leveraging the fact that they are hard to hit, streaks are leveraging the fact that they are fire and forget. It seems to me that this is just a natural course of action.

If nothing else, Streaks could possibly work like MW4's SRMs, where they home in your pinpoint aim but doesn't need to lock but just good aim.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 November 2021 - 10:35 AM.

[martian]

The6thMessenger, on 07 November 2021 - 10:34 AM, said:

...
If nothing else, Streaks could possibly work like MW4's SRMs, where they home in your pinpoint aim but doesn't need to lock but just good aim.

I remember such behaviour from MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries and it was occassionally a little too much effective.

[LordNothing]

The6thMessenger, on 07 November 2021 - 10:05 AM, said:

I agree with things being different, but not to the point The low-engine and slowness of it, at least to me, felt like why we have to put in big guns on it the first place. If we're going to make it faster, why not just play other 45-tonners?

that might work for the rac2 and uac5 builds. the arrow in particular is not a very effective build with its stock loadout. if it had the engine cap of the 1x i think it would be better. i see it as kind of a light hunter but it just cant do the job, or any job it seems, other than maybe copypasta one of the act/uac2/rac2/ac5/uac5 builds. i guess its destined to plink its way through your armor slowly from across the map.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 November 2021 - 11:34 PM.

[L1f3H4ck]

Take it from someone who unironically plays streakboats from time to time.

You do not want them to be better. I remember a time when they were, you do not want to go back there, trust me.

[Davegt27]

Dakkalistic, on 08 November 2021 - 01:19 AM, said:

Take it from someone who unironically plays streakboats from time to time.

You do not want them to be better. I remember a time when they were, you do not want to go back there, trust me.

what time frame was that ?

I had heard stories about streaks in the early days and how they go for CTs

I recommend removing streaks from the game
after 8 years I am sick of people crying about streaks

and the mealy mouthed sneaky nerfs


JMTCW

[caravann]

Everyone thinking the past.

That nothing can be changed

Damage = damage
Tonnage = tonnage

Many know by now that light machineguns are as much useful as streak SRM

You get a slight range increase. That can be a thing for streaks. You need the extra range for the missile to use the guiding trajectory, the streaks are countered by AMS and balance can be made by thinking streaks as LRM with short range. Actually clans do not have a middle ground guided missile system.

What I'd see is guided rocket launchers replacing streaks for Inner sphere.

[The6thMessenger]

The problem with streaks is hardcoded, it's fundamental. That it invalidates the niche of one class in the first place, why it has to be piss-poor at everything else. Any buff to it is a nerf to the vulnerable lights.

Why people go for Streaks? Because they suck at aiming, and the auto-aim helps them deal with lights. And why lights are easily downed? Because they have paper-thin armor. If because lights are hard to hit, why not make them easier to hit in general by making them larger? If they can't take a hit, why not just make them able to take a hit by adding quirks?

By making them easier to hit, then you reduce the need for players to rely on auto-aim. If you made them even tankier, then you reduce the need for them to completely rely on their speed and profile. Why Urbie works, and streaks are just another weapon type to them.

If they refuse to tackle this at the fundamental level, I'm sorry to say that it sounds like the problem will never get solved at all.

caravann, on 09 November 2021 - 12:19 AM, said:

Many know by now that light machineguns are as much useful as streak SRM

You get a slight range increase. That can be a thing for streaks. You need the extra range for the missile to use the guiding trajectory, the streaks are countered by AMS and balance can be made by thinking streaks as LRM with short range.

Basically SMRM - Streak Medium Range Missiles then? I mean sure I guess, and I would love for IS Streaks to have 360m, with clans at 450m. But why not just get ATMs at that point for Clans? Why not just use MRMs for IS to eschew the locking sequence that people seem to hate.

caravann, on 09 November 2021 - 12:19 AM, said:

Actually clans do not have a middle ground guided missile system.

ATMs? Or does it really have to be exclusive to only a single role?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 November 2021 - 12:53 AM.

[Curccu]

Davegt27, on 08 November 2021 - 11:37 PM, said:

what time frame was that ?

I had heard stories about streaks in the early days and how they go for CTs

I recommend removing streaks from the game
after 8 years I am sick of people crying about streaks

and the mealy mouthed sneaky nerfs


JMTCW

Same time that ECM was magic jesus box, Raven-3L with streaks and ECM would defeat atlas pretty easily by running around it and shooting streaks when CD allowed (Ravens hitbox was also broken at that time...)

If I remember correctly missiles had splash damage back in the day and it was coded somewhat PGI style (not correctly) and single (S)SRM missile could do something like 10 damage.

[Curccu]

The6thMessenger, on 09 November 2021 - 12:36 AM, said:

Why Urbie works, and streaks are just another weapon type to them.

Why Urbie works because it is not actually slow (no stock engine (STD60) urbie is not viable mech even if some people can pull out good games with it now and then.), it has stupid good hitbox, small frame, all high weapon mounts, JJs and yes top of those probable the best quirks in the whole game.

PS. Cannot agree on making lights bigger and mega quirk them with extra armor.

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 09 November 2021 - 01:55 AM, said:

Why Urbie works because it is not actually slow (no stock engine (STD60) urbie is not viable mech even if some people can pull out good games with it now and then.), it has stupid good hitbox, small frame, all high weapon mounts, JJs and yes top of those probable the best quirks in the whole game.

PS. Cannot agree on making lights bigger and mega quirk them with extra armor.

Yeah, but they are arguably fairer to deal with compared to these lights that streaks counter because of the larger profile and the quirks compensating.

[Curccu]

The6thMessenger, on 09 November 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

Yeah, but they are arguably fairer to deal with compared to these lights that streaks counter because of the larger profile and the quirks compensating.

But it's not really larger than other 30 tonners?

Not 100% sure if this is latest rescale
https://mwomercs.com...es-and-numbers/

Edited by Curccu, 09 November 2021 - 02:55 AM.

[Dogstar]

The6thMessenger, on 09 November 2021 - 12:36 AM, said:

Why people go for Streaks? Because they suck at aiming, and the auto-aim helps them deal with lights.

I think that you, and others who believe the same, are very much mistaken on this point because you don't actually use streaks and simply think of them as short ranged LRMs.

As someone who does suck at aiming I can let you know that trying to get a lock on on a fast moving light at brawling range is not at all 'easy'. LRM locks are usually attempted at medium to long range where the target movement covers a limited arc and limited arcs are easy to aim at. Streak locks at short range against fast moving targets cover very large arcs and keeping the cursor over the target for the requisite few seconds is substantially more difficult.

Streaks actually have a higher skill requirement than you think which is why I keep advocating to get the lock-on arc for Streaks widened. It's one of the main reasons Streaks are so little used.

So please, don't say that streaks are 'easy mode', we've covered the same sort of myth-busting over LRMs, let's not have to repeat it for Streaks.

[caravann]

The6thMessenger, on 09 November 2021 - 12:36 AM, said:

The problem with streaks is hardcoded, it's fundamental. That it invalidates the niche of one class in the first place, why it has to be piss-poor at everything else. Any buff to it is a nerf to the vulnerable lights.

Why people go for Streaks? Because they suck at aiming, and the auto-aim helps them deal with lights. And why lights are easily downed? Because they have paper-thin armor. If because lights are hard to hit, why not make them easier to hit in general by making them larger? If they can't take a hit, why not just make them able to take a hit by adding quirks?

By making them easier to hit, then you reduce the need for players to rely on auto-aim. If you made them even tankier, then you reduce the need for them to completely rely on their speed and profile. Why Urbie works, and streaks are just another weapon type to them.

If they refuse to tackle this at the fundamental level, I'm sorry to say that it sounds like the problem will never get solved at all.



Basically SMRM - Streak Medium Range Missiles then? I mean sure I guess, and I would love for IS Streaks to have 360m, with clans at 450m. But why not just get ATMs at that point for Clans? Why not just use MRMs for IS to eschew the locking sequence that people seem to hate.



ATMs? Or does it really have to be exclusive to only a single role?

ATM is for extended range

Clan used ATM to shred armor on Inner sphere heavier armored mechs.

The Inner sphere had not a single counter to ATM since it was reaching beyond the range of LRM.

ATM was used by almost every clan mech because of the range advantage made clan able to shoot at the inner sphere without worrying about return fire.

ATM had the disadvantages of limited ammunition and the reason why ATM uses 3,6,9 and 12 missiles to reduce the use of missiles for every barrage.

ATM was mainly used for extended range where Inner sphere missile mech wasn't able to return fire against the Clan missile mech

It served as well as support fire to open up the armor and each shot had an extra punch to penetrate the hulls and the reduced spread by lower dicing for every shot meant that it could hit weak part of the armor.

ATM was primary a long range weapon and indirect. It can not be compared with short range weapons who has extra payload and close to immunity of AMS.

ATM has a limit on close range and streaks with medium range would close in the gap.

LRM has been served as placeholder for this role that is needed but not provided.

[The6thMessenger]

caravann, on 09 November 2021 - 03:23 AM, said:

ATM is for extended range

That's not how we use it here.

Clan used ATM to shred armor on Inner sphere heavier armored mechs.

The Inner sphere had not a single counter to ATM since it was reaching beyond the range of LRM.

ATM was used by almost every clan mech because of the range advantage made clan able to shoot at the inner sphere without worrying about return fire.

ATM had the disadvantages of limited ammunition and the reason why ATM uses 3,6,9 and 12 missiles to reduce the use of missiles for every barrage.

ATM was mainly used for extended range where Inner sphere missile mech wasn't able to return fire against the Clan missile mech

It served as well as support fire to open up the armor and each shot had an extra punch to penetrate the hulls and the reduced spread by lower dicing for every shot meant that it could hit weak part of the armor.

ATM was primary a long range weapon and indirect. It can not be compared with short range weapons who has extra payload and close to immunity of AMS.

ATM has a limit on close range and streaks with medium range would close in the gap.

LRM has been served as placeholder for this role that is needed but not provided.

But that's not how we use it here lol. Here it's a kind of more direct-fire LRMs, with damage ramp-up.

Curccu, on 09 November 2021 - 02:50 AM, said:

But it's not really larger than other 30 tonners?

Not 100% sure if this is latest rescale
https://mwomercs.com...es-and-numbers/

... but the problem mechs are the small ones like Piranha, Locust, Flea.

Come on, nobody is complaining that a wolfhound or firestarter ate your *** and it's hard to hit. It's always the flea, the locust, the piranha, because they are the frustrating one.

[The6thMessenger]

Dogstar, on 09 November 2021 - 03:15 AM, said:

I think that you, and others who believe the same, are very much mistaken on this point because you don't actually use streaks and simply think of them as short ranged LRMs.

I also use them at my Scat for poprtarting at a distance when SRMs would be harder to use, **** me right?

Dogstar, on 09 November 2021 - 03:15 AM, said:

As someone who does suck at aiming I can let you know that trying to get a lock on on a fast moving light at brawling range is not at all 'easy'.

That's because locking was heavily nerfed from before. Like the Artemis rework, the lock-on cone reduced from 45 degrees to 25 degrees. Right now, streaks in terms of versus aiming, it's arguably fairer, but it's not worth it.

Dogstar, on 09 November 2021 - 03:15 AM, said:

Streaks actually have a higher skill requirement than you think which is why I keep advocating to get the lock-on arc for Streaks widened. It's one of the main reasons Streaks are so little used.

Ehhh... I don't know. I agree with the need to improve on the lock mechanics, especially now that Streaks' upfront damage hard-nerfed for DPS, but problem there is that the balance-overlords Cauldron obviously don't think so and the elites, if I read their sentiments correctly, has general dislike with auto-aim. They just love their aim, because "it's an FPS", and they have the say on balance. So what the **** can we do?

On the technical side, IIRC, the lock-cone is shared to all homing weapons. You can't just exclude the SSRMs from the rest. And MWO is ran by a skeleton crew, so it's not really something we could ask them for.

Dogstar, on 09 November 2021 - 03:15 AM, said:

So please, don't say that streaks are 'easy mode', we've covered the same sort of myth-busting over LRMs, let's not have to repeat it for Streaks.

VS lights, it was. And for a long time, it was the point.

But with the string of nerfs, the ecm that makes it hard to get a damn lock, in addition of stealth armor.

It's not easy mode, and at the same time, defeats the point of it as a weapon system. Why bother with the large mechs? They are easy to hit, and standard SRMs or MRMs would do you better, hell lasers, ppcs, and acs would be even better as you can better isolate a component. Alternatively LRMs or ATMs would let you do it from a farther distance and arguably safer.

So far the only saving grace of SSRMs to me is that the clan ones are at 360m max range -- it was a powerful scat build that lets you SRM from a farther distance that hit in most cases. The IS one at 270m is arguably pointless versus SSRMs. It's powerful that it has higher DPS, but at that point why not just play something else like SNPPC, or MRMs?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 November 2021 - 04:47 AM.

[Curccu]

The6thMessenger, on 09 November 2021 - 04:34 AM, said:

... but the problem mechs are the small ones like Piranha, Locust, Flea.

Come on, nobody is complaining that a wolfhound or firestarter ate your *** and it's hard to hit. It's always the flea, the locust, the piranha, because they are the frustrating one.

Well no surprise there, if locust is 8 meters tall and is WAY faster and nimbler than FS9/WLF and those are 11/12 meters tall.
and would you resize locust to wolfhound size and give it same armor but less podspace?

But again that is low tier problem mostly, people just can't aim there. Most of those QQ lights OP gang would cry a river if they encounter skilled, I mean really good light pilot in meta firestarter/wolfhound because they can't hit them and those also happen to have more firepower.

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 09 November 2021 - 04:58 AM, said:

Well no surprise there, if locust is 8 meters tall and is WAY faster and nimbler than FS9/WLF and those are 11/12 meters tall.
and would you resize locust to wolfhound size and give it same armor but less podspace?

Eh, not necessarily, but not this small.

Curccu, on 09 November 2021 - 04:58 AM, said:

But again that is low tier problem mostly, people just can't aim there. Most of those QQ lights OP gang would cry a river if they encounter skilled, I mean really good light pilot in meta firestarter/wolfhound because they can't hit them and those also happen to have more firepower.

Sure, but if you solve it, at least it's not a problem in either level of play.