629 replies to this topic

[MPhoenix]

It's a general statement and for the most part they are fine but there's one issue that makes them utter BS in the game.
Absolute lack of consequence to the whole face hugging/strafing idiocy.

A 20 ton mech can take down a fresh 100 ton mech simple by running around it firing dinky weapons forever. Okay, it's a viable tactic for damage but to be able to destroy a fresh mech is nonsense.

It's a game, a game about fictional big stompy robots, there's no 'in real life..'.

That said there should be a risk to this tactic that is completely absent due to the lack of physics and contact damage. Simply put a 20 ton mech running at speed who gets walked in to by a 100 ton mech shouldn't just deflect and keep running. The consequence of impacting that much mass at high speed should shear parts off and destroy components.

I'm guessing there's some limits to the physics engine in the game but I know impact damage can already occur. I've had my mech damaged before the battle by team mates running in to me. An assault mech slams in to my medium mech crossing a bridge on Canyon network and my leg is yellow and I'm at 98-99%. Obviously impact damage is calculated somehow so why not apply that to damaging the enemy?

It can't be that ground breaking, way back in Tie Fighter, X-Wing vs Tie and such collisions carried damage and we could use bigger ships to ram smaller ships and survive. That was almost 40 years ago.


I'm sure there are tons of game balancing issues that need to be addressed, no matter how good or diligent a company is there always are and new ones always crop up.
But this is one that has turned in to a tactic by exploiting the lack of physics and mass.

Just to save us some time from the whole 'You're just angry it happened to you!' rabbit trail, not really. It rarely does, mostly because I've died in a loud and grotesque manner well before they get the chance.

[John Bronco]

The risk is the light will get obliterated by your nearby teammates.

If there are no nearby teammates, you ****** up.

[LordNothing]

as someone who plays both assaults and lights to some degree of proficiency i have to say the assaults give you better scores, more damage, more kills than lights do. they are almost across the board better in almost every metric. im more likely to kill an assault in another assault than in a light. it sucks when your assault gets ganked by a light, but thats usually not an issue with class balance.

it sucks more to be a light pilot, because the second you come across a skilled player or a guy in a streak boat or other anti-squirrel loadouts, you are pretty much done. you are constantly checking that the thing you want to attack isnt going to one hit you. assaults too must use special measures to avoid being squirrel food, if you haven't figured out what those are yet, maybe the assault class isn't for you.

[Therax]

The assaults could always put some weapons in their arms and shoot back too.



Not that I would, my assaults almost always need to strip all of their arm armour off in order to be able carry even more big guns in their torsos.

[MPhoenix]

John Bronco, on 28 November 2021 - 08:10 PM, said:

The risk is the light will get obliterated by your nearby teammates.

If there are no nearby teammates, you ****** up.

True, but that is a risk any brawling mech faces, without the added immunity of no penalty for impact.

LordNothing, on 28 November 2021 - 09:02 PM, said:

if you haven't figured out what those are yet, maybe the assault class isn't for you.

Since you seem to have missed it...

MPhoenix, on 28 November 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

Just to save us some time from the whole 'You're just angry it happened to you!' rabbit trail, not really. It rarely does, mostly because I've died in a loud and grotesque manner well before they get the chance.

I play mostly mediums and when I die it usually looks like an LAPD beat down.

For me this issue is simple game physics and balance, every A should have a B and every B should be offset by A. I see it happen frequently and as I said having seen the coding that solves this in games almost 30 years ago I find it odd that it's not implemented here.

I erred earlier when i said TIE and XvT we're 40 years ago, when you're pushing 60 it seems longer ago than it is.

[martian]

MPhoenix, on 28 November 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

It's a general statement and for the most part they are fine but there's one issue that makes them utter BS in the game.
Absolute lack of consequence to the whole face hugging/strafing idiocy.

As it is now, light 'Mechs already have a difficult life. Making it even more difficult would mean that many current light 'Mech pilots (not that the number is too high) would ceased their use.

MPhoenix, on 28 November 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

A 20 ton mech can take down a fresh 100 ton mech simple by running around it firing dinky weapons forever. Okay, it's a viable tactic for damage but to be able to destroy a fresh mech is nonsense.

Why should it be a nonsense?

Well, if you admit that light 'Mech using its weapons "is a viable tactic for damage", then applying this damage to the right spot (rear torso, damage side torso, weak leg, etc.) "to destroy a fresh mech" is no different.

Especially if those Assault 'Mechs use only small amount of armor on the rear torso.

MPhoenix, on 28 November 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

That said there should be a risk to this tactic ....

Light 'Mech are already underpopulated class of MWO. Changes like those that you suggest would probably lead to another loss of players in this weight class.

MPhoenix, on 28 November 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

I'm sure there are tons of game balancing issues that need to be addressed, no matter how good or diligent a company is there always are and new ones always crop up.
But this is one that has turned in to a tactic by exploiting the lack of physics and mass.

Light 'Mechs are not "exploiting", they are using one of the small number of advantages they have.

Not to talk that some light 'Mechs combine fragility AND quite big size.

MPhoenix, on 28 November 2021 - 09:41 PM, said:

I play mostly mediums and when I die it usually looks like an LAPD beat down.

I have got one suggestion: Take a light 'Mech and play 20-30 games in it. Preferably, some light 'Mech that usually carries short range weapons and depends on getting close to the enemy. Something like Piranha, Locust or Flea.

MPhoenix, on 28 November 2021 - 09:41 PM, said:

For me this issue is simple game physics and balance, every A should have a B and every B should be offset by A. I see it happen frequently and as I said having seen the coding that solves this in games almost 30 years ago I find it odd that it's not implemented here.

If those light 'Mechs are so good, why do they often end the game with the low Match Score?

If those light 'Mechs are so good, why is not the queue full of light 'Mechs, "exploiting" their advantage?

If those light 'Mechs are so good, why are both teams often composed of heavy and medium 'Mechs, with one or two token light 'Mechs on both sides?

If those light 'Mechs are so good, why am I seeing top players in Blood Asps, Mad Cat Mk. II or Night Gyrs and not in Panthers, Jenners or Locusts?

How often do you actually play light 'Mechs to test your theory that light 'Mechs are so "unbalanced" and easy to play?

[RickySpanish]

Well the technical reason is, more or less, that their developers weren't good enough to overcome synchronisation issues between players once a mech was knocked down. It would appear in different places on players screens and sometimes warp to a new location as it got up. Also, it was a system easily open to abuse where gangs of mechs would perpetually stunlock someone. The solutions though are pretty simple - put guns in your arms OR don't stray too far from help.

[Ravni]

It sounds like you desire a physics system where any collision damage between a light mech and an assault should result in crippling or lethal damage to the light. I have difficulty impressing upon you enough how terrible of an idea that is.

Instead, I suggest you attempt to pilot a Flea (or any light mech, really) to see how they play firsthand. While doing so, please take careful note of each time you bump or graze in to another mech - friend or foe - and then think about how much more awesome the game would be if your mech had just instantly exploded.

[MPhoenix]

Ravni, on 28 November 2021 - 09:59 PM, said:

It sounds like you desire a physics system where any collision damage between a light mech and an assault should result in crippling or lethal damage to the light. I have difficulty impressing upon you enough how terrible of an idea that is.

Instead, I suggest you attempt to pilot a Flea (or any light mech, really) to see how they play firsthand. While doing so, please take careful note of each time you bump or graze in to another mech - friend or foe - and then think about how much more awesome the game would be if your mech had just instantly exploded.

Not just the light mech, any mech, preferably based on disparity of tonnage.
Two 50 tonners run in to each other, equal damage; 30 tonner in to a 90 tonner, 'X' damage to the 30 tonner and 1/3 that damge to the 90 tonner.

Bumping a friend already does collision damage and while you may not like it physics says that yeah, run in to a friend or foe with enough acceleration versus a higher mass then yes you just might explode.
And I'm not talking about duct taping vials of nitroglycerin to mechs, just impact damage. A collision equals 'X' damage adjusted for mass and velocity, several collisions over time and yeah it could add up to losing a limb or something.

On the plus side the comedic potential is amazing.
An entire lance of Cicadas launching themselves full speed in to a Dire Wolf to cripple one or both legs.
When they die they could have a warhorn that plays the Benny Hill theme.

Edited by MPhoenix, 28 November 2021 - 10:16 PM.

[Gagis]

Just shoot the light.

[Ravni]

Realism should always take backseat to enjoyable gameplay unless it is for a simulator-type of game built for those who enjoy sadomasochism. Mechwarrior is not a sim and nothing in the game even passes the laugh test of being remotely realistic: weapon ranges, projectile velocities, the heat system, gravity, etc. everything is pure space magic.

From a gameplay standpoint, your suggestions are absolutely terrible. Regardless, it is a moot point from a developer resource standpoint (i.e. there are none).

[MPhoenix]

Ravni, on 28 November 2021 - 10:40 PM, said:

Realism should always take backseat to enjoyable gameplay unless it is for a simulator-type of game built for those who enjoy sadomasochism. Mechwarrior is not a sim and nothing in the game even passes the laugh test of being remotely realistic: weapon ranges, projectile velocities, the heat system, gravity, etc. everything is pure space magic.

From a gameplay standpoint, your suggestions are absolutely terrible. Regardless, it is a moot point from a developer resource standpoint (i.e. there are none).

It's not death for a game, way back when the physics modeling for WWII Online was insane. Modeling of every detail like the flight path of a bullet and deflection from hitting an intervening tree branch or something.

It just seems that a larger mech should be able to physically damage a lighter mech via impact and vice versa.
However as you said it's moot due to developer resources that's a trump card even physics can't beat.


I still want to see a lance of kamikaze Cicadas...

[justcallme A S H]

MPhoenix, on 28 November 2021 - 08:03 PM, said:

A 20 ton mech can take down a fresh 100 ton mech simple by running around it firing dinky weapons forever.

And a 100T (B.) mech would be able to delete the 20T (A) mech on it's approach in a single shot/volley.

The 100T (B.) mech has failed to do its job if that has allowed (A) to do such naughty things.


There is your A and B.


And here ends the latest "lights are OP" thread.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 29 November 2021 - 02:44 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Eh. I agree that it's whack, unfun, and frustrating. But be honest, if it can't do that, why run the lights?

[Storming Angel]

No lights are not OP. all mechs use the exact same weapons. If lights were OP they would be the easiest and also the most rewarding class in the game. They rely a lot on skirmishing, harassment, wolf packing, ambushing, opportunities, distractions and poking.

It's not rare to see a light get deleted or crippled in a few hits and with the amount of weapons a light can typically field and the poor alpha damages they usually have and rely solely on DPM and speed to survive.

Only times i have issues against lights is when i'm alone or facing more than 2 with only a teammate or so and dont have the alpha to cripple or damage them hard enough outright.

Also they nerfed collision, because a dev got rammed to death and raged-coded it out of the game, because you know professionalism.

[Ignatius Audene]

0% light play? Test and come back

[Curccu]

Gagis, on 28 November 2021 - 10:23 PM, said:

Just shoot the light.

Stop telling people to shoot my lights! Not fun!

back to topic:
Personally I dislike collision humping tactics and I don't personally use them on purpose when playing light mechs, I like playing knife fighters very close but trying to avoid collisions.

But gotta admit back in the day Jenner bowling was kinda fun

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Dude, the solution is on-hand and so simple:

since lights are so good, you should pilot them yourselves. take a few games to see exactly how easy they are to play and just how rewarding light-play is.


you know, the grass is always greener - till you get and alpha to your knee.

[pbiggz]

Bossman.

"I cant shoot lights good therefore we have to nerf them" is not a viable or defensible approach to balance. Double down as much as you like, it won't change that.

[DaZur]

Meh... I have to begrudgingly admit I used to be in the "Lights are too OP" camp.

That said, as my proficiencies in piloting mechs, understanding the limits of my mechs and those I opposed... I found myself less vexed by lights. Even going so far as seeking out and engaging lights with heavier mechs.

For me the biggest fix was understanding and maximizing engagements ranges of my weapons and knowing how to work angles on lights when they start nipping on your ankles.

That said, I've not yet found a fix for being wolf-packed by lights other than avoiding getting caught alone.