629 replies to this topic

[Capt Deadpool]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 10:12 PM, said:

In my opinion, assaults simply need to be thrown a small bone here. I'm not advocating a total rework of all game-balance. I'm not advocating "nerfing" lights in general. On the contrary, I am advocating just giving a bit more survivability through slightly increased arm/torso agility to assaults. Might this be reasonable?

It’s only reasonable if you ignore the statistics we have about each weight class. And, given that nascar is being reduced by new maps (nascar is most beneficial to lights), that there are waaay more ppfld weapons with higher velocities than there have ever been before, and the improvement to agility for many assault chassis, practically the only “small bone” that the lights have been left with is the ability to exploit assaults that are out of position and the pilots lacking the aim to insta-delete them with massive firepower as they close distance to engage.

[martian]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 10:12 PM, said:

I am glad you asked. I believe that the role of many light mechs should be a viable/valid counter to large, slow, ponderous gun-monsters like assault 'Mechs. (Notice that is exactly what you think I do not believe.) And I believe they are fulfilling that role; unfortunately I feel they are doing it too well.

Perhaps those "large, slow, ponderous" Assault 'Mechs should stay with their team where their team mates can help them,
instead of wandering around the map alone or playing sniper and camping in some remote corner of the map, if those Assaults can not defend themselves.

If you know what I mean ...

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 10:12 PM, said:

In my opinion, assaults simply need to be thrown a small bone here. I'm not advocating a total rework of all game-balance. I'm not advocating "nerfing" lights in general. On the contrary, I am advocating just giving a bit more survivability through slightly increased arm/torso agility to assaults. Might this be reasonable?

From what I have seen in the game, many players play with locked arms. There would be no point of increasing for example the arms movement, if they are not using even the arms movement that they already have.

And maybe those "Assault gun-monsters" should improve their situational awareness, so they can use their massive guns (that often can hit with devastating effects on a few hundred metres) to kill the incoming light 'Mech before said Light gets close enough to use its Small lasers/Micro lasers/MGs/ Flamers that have only a very short range ...

[Vyx]

Capt Deadpool, on 10 December 2021 - 10:46 PM, said:

It’s only reasonable if you ignore the statistics we have about each weight class. And, given that nascar is being reduced by new maps (nascar is most beneficial to lights), that there are waaay more ppfld weapons with higher velocities than there have ever been before, and the improvement to agility for many assault chassis, practically the only “small bone” that the lights have been left with is the ability to exploit assaults that are out of position and the pilots lacking the aim to insta-delete them with massive firepower as they close distance to engage.

I agree Capt Deadpool. You make a very valid observation. It is a fine line. But, once again, in my opinion, I think it makes sense. Lights will always have the ability to exploit poor players regardless of weather we "enhance the agility of assaults a wee-bit" or not. That will not go away, rest assured. But it will give the moderately good assault player a fractionally more viable means to defend themselves.

To Mr. martian's comments: Poor play is its own reward; and this kind of problem is only solved via experience and training. I am not advocating any kind of "I win" button for assaults or anything. Again, I simply am saying, for those who do not succumb to the foibles you mention, give them a slightly better chance to defend themselves.

Edited by Vyx, 10 December 2021 - 11:11 PM.

[martian]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 11:00 PM, said:

To Mr. martian's comments: Poor play is its own reward; and this kind of problem is only solved via experience and training. I am not advocating any kind of "I win" button for assaults or anything.

Assault 'Mechs are already the best armed class of 'Mechs in the game. With the right loadout they can cripple or kill light 'Mechs with one shot and seriously damage medium and heavy 'Mechs.

Assault 'Mechs are already the best armored class of 'Mechs in the game. They have armor protection that light 'Mechs can only dream about. Some Assault 'Mechs have significant armor quirks that boost their protection even further. Do you remember how you complained in one of your previous posts that light 'Mechs sometimes have +10-20% armor than they could legally carry and how I told you that Atlas has +26% additional armor in quirks?

New maps have helped Assault 'Mechs significantly, since now they can control large areas of maps from those high walls (HPG Manifold) or high rocks (Caustic Valley, Viridan Bog).

Some Assault 'Mechs come with the equipment that improves their situational awareness against light 'Mechs (Battle Computer) or they can equip such situational-awareness-improving equipment (Command Console) that light 'Mechs can not. This is another advantage of Assault 'Mechs.

If a light 'Mech pilots wants to succeed, he must overcome all these Assault 'Mechs' advantages to get close enough to use his very short-ranged weapons, knowing that any wrong move can kill him. To make it for Assault 'Mech pilots easier, PGI has enhanced Assault 'Mechs' pitch and yaw angles recently.
And we are still talking only about a situation when light 'Mech pilot can catch just lone Assault 'Mech.

So I do not think that boosting Assault 'Mechs even further is really neccessary.

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 11:00 PM, said:

Again, I simply am saying, for those who do not succumb to the foibles you mention, give them a slightly better chance to defend themselves.

I think that any Assault 'Mech pilot, who gets repeatedly caught by enemy light 'Mechs while alone and who can not defend himself, should either adjust his gameplay, modify his 'Mech or maybe pursue a different battlefield role.

Because as it now, Assault 'Mechs have more than enough advantages already, when compared with light 'Mechs.

[Vyx]

No one ever complains that assaults are inordinately clobbering lights. It is only the reverse that ever gets brought up again and again. There is a reason for this. And the reasoning that all assault pilots are bad is not realistic.

It is obvious that from a game-design standpoint there was an intentional artificial "gimping" of assault agility so that they would fare poorly against fast movers. As I have stated several times, I feel that presently this "gimping" is simply too severe. You like the dominance lights have enjoyed -- speed mainly, but size and applied firepower too -- I get that. Via this proposal, lights would still retain all of those advantages.

Speedy lights will still be optimal to prey on the poor-positioned, the unsupported, and unaware mechs of any size. This is one of their undisputed strengths. But I and others feel that assaults could use the smallest of boosts to rate-of-turn and arm motion to help even things up when fighting them. This really isn't unreasonable at all.

Edited by Vyx, 11 December 2021 - 02:25 AM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

No one ever complains that assaults are inordinately clobbering lights. It is only the reverse that ever gets brought up again and again. There is a reason for this. And the reasoning that all assault pilots are bad is not realistic.

It is obvious that there was an intentional artificial "gimping" of assault agility so that they would fare poorly against fast movers. As I have stated several times, I feel that presently this "gimping" is too severe. You like the dominance lights have enjoyed -- speed mainly, but size and applied firepower too -- I get that. Via this proposal, they would still retain all of those advantages. But I and others feel that assaults could use the smallest of boosts to help even things up when fighting them.

Don't worry, lights will still be optimal to prey on the poor-positioned, the unsupported, and unaware mechs of any size.

You are not far from the truth here, the desync crippled many heavy/assault chassis in favour of the lights. We hear about the agility quirks that are supposed to balance this out, but the direction in boosting certain chassis/mechs and associated weapons choices, has done little to address the situation you describe and has in fact made it worse.

I would like to say I have confidence in the agility quirks being able to improve the situation, but at the end of the day, all they will do is spread damage a little more instead of addressing the fact that weapons systems are delivering more damage that will still shred armour down.

[Der Geisterbaer]

MPhoenix said:

If 'MGs' are actually Gatling cannons similar to the Vulcan and GAU they are using mechanisms similar in function to the RACs.

You are again falling into the pit trap of attenpting your comparison based on technological premises within the real world while ignoring the intended form and function within the fictional game universe.

MPhoenix said:

Shouldn't there be a jam chance for them too?

Based on the - largely irrelevant - real world physics of these particular weapon types? In that regard they certainly "should" have a jam chance based on fire duration and the resulting heat build-up.

However, the more important question with regards to a game and it simulating different weapon systems is: Is such a jam chance actually needed within the confines of the combat abstraction for the BT table top game as well as within any of the computer game implementations?
And there the answer becomes: Depending on how the different weapon types are limited within the combat abstraction such "realistic" elements can become unnecessary or even unwanted. Obviously the original game designers - probably due to the extremely limited effective weapon ranges of their 'machine guns' - decided to ignore that aspect within their simulation and this decision has been carried over to any of the computer game implementations (probably due to the exact same reasoning when going beyond the "accurate franchise depiction" premise).

MPhoenix said:

Also if MGs are 25mm-50mm Gatling cannons WTH are A/Cs firing, Volkswagens!?!

Battletech's autocannons are functionally fully automated (self-loading, chain fire capable) battle tank guns / anti-tank guns that are comparable to anything between 50mm (think KwK 39 as AC2) and 120mm (think Rh-120 as AC 20) calibres ... including the usual "not realistic" weapon range constraints all BT weapon systems have due to the necessities of originally being used in a table top war game that simply could not afford to demand some 7m² of single map space in order to "properly" simulate the 2000+m ranges of such weapon systems while also allowing for unit movement on the maps when contrasted against the (roughly) 1/285 scale of its miniatures.

Battletech's ultra-autocannons are BT autocannons that not only self-load and chainfire but have a [insert fictional technobabble] quick-load mechanism that can temporarily double firing rate but - for balancing purposes - is prone to jamming when used.

Battletech's rotary autocannons are functionally rapid-fire versions of the "lower" end Battletech autocannons (comparable at best to 50mm to about 80mm calibres) that are supposed to incorporate gatling style loading and firing mechanisms and as such are (again deliberately) balanced by this time not completely ignoring real world physics and therefore having another jam mechanism in the game.

So no, the Battletech ACs are not firing "Volkswagens".

[PocketYoda]

martian, on 10 December 2021 - 10:53 PM, said:

Perhaps those "large, slow, ponderous" Assault 'Mechs should stay with their team where their team mates can help them,
instead of wandering around the map alone or playing sniper and camping in some remote corner of the map, if those Assaults can not defend themselves.

If you know what I mean ...



From what I have seen in the game, many players play with locked arms. There would be no point of increasing for example the arms movement, if they are not using even the arms movement that they already have.

And maybe those "Assault gun-monsters" should improve their situational awareness, so they can use their massive guns (that often can hit with devastating effects on a few hundred metres) to kill the incoming light 'Mech before said Light gets close enough to use its Small lasers/Micro lasers/MGs/ Flamers that have only a very short range ...

Perhaps those "large, slow, ponderous" Assault 'Mechs should stay with their team where their team mates can help them...

That sound great in theory but when a good chunk of teams take off and leave you to die..... I'm just saying its not always the slow ponderous mechs fault.. 48.6kph even 52kph you get left behind.

Edited by MechaGnome, 11 December 2021 - 03:42 AM.

[martian]

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

No one ever complains that assaults are inordinately clobbering lights. It is only the reverse that ever gets brought up again and again. There is a reason for this. And the reasoning that all assault pilots are bad is not realistic.

In my previous post I did not say that all assault pilots are bad. I talked about "Assault 'Mech pilot, who gets repeatedly caught by enemy light 'Mechs while alone and who can not defend himself". So please do not put in my mouth something I did not say.

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

It is obvious that from a game-design standpoint there was an intentional artificial "gimping" of assault agility so that they would fare poorly against fast movers. As I have stated several times, I feel that presently this "gimping" is simply too severe.

Assault 'Mechs are not so agile because they can already pack the biggest firepower and the thickest armor. In the interests of the game balance, they are not so agile as other weight classes of 'Mechs.

The fact is that the Assault 'Mechs' agility, pitch and yaw angles have been boosted recently, "not" gimped.

Just check the post-change Daishi: It accelerates faster, deccelerates better, its torso turns faster and in the wider arc. Its pitch angle has been improved and so has been boosted its yaw.

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

You like the dominance lights have enjoyed -- speed mainly, but size and applied firepower too -- I get that. Via this proposal, lights would still retain all of those advantages.

The dominance of light 'Mechs in MWO? Since when?

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

Speedy lights will still be optimal to prey on the poor-positioned, the unsupported, and unaware mechs of any size. This is one of their undisputed strengths. But I and others feel that assaults could use the smallest of boosts to rate-of-turn and arm motion to help even things up when fighting them. This really isn't unreasonable at all.

Do you realize that boosting Assault 'Mechs would boost them not only against light 'Mechs, but also against medium 'Mechs and heavy 'Mechs too? Essentially, you would boost already powerful class of 'Mechs and thus - relatively speaking - nerf all other weight classes? It would influence the balance of the entire game.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Random side question: Didn't the most recent agility pass attempt to bring back mechs to almost the exact same agility levels as they were prior to the engine desync?

[ScrapIron Prime]

Vyx, on 11 December 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

You like the dominance lights have enjoyed

‘It’s my observation that only those who pilot predominantly assault mechs ever mention the superiority of light mechs. Those players who pilot light mechs do not speak of this nor feel this way.

I would humbly recommend that you build out a commando or a flea or a piranha and run it for 50 games, then come back and tell us how much you dominated. I believe your viewpoint will change.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Der Geisterbaer, on 11 December 2021 - 04:56 AM, said:

Random side question: Didn't the most recent agility pass attempt to bring back mechs to almost the exact same agility levels as they were prior to the engine desync?

Nor exactly, but they did get closer. Hit the Announcements forum and read the May and June patch notes and discussions for a blow-by-blow.

[John Bronco]

All those poor assaults, winning more than any other class, killing more than any other class, doing more damage than any other class.

It's just so tough being far and away the best class in the game.

[RickySpanish]

John Bronco, on 11 December 2021 - 06:41 AM, said:

All those poor assaults, winning more than any other class, killing more than any other class, doing more damage than any other class.

It's just so tough being far and away the best class in the game.

Depends on tier. IMO Heavies then Mediums are the best class followed by the other two, which are more dependent on team composition. If you are doing solo queue, a Heavy is the best choice because they are so versatile. Well, broadly speaking. The more I think about it though, the more I realise that it is individual chassis you want to be looking at and not the classes as a whole. So to correct my statement, Timberwolf, Ebon Jaguar and Sunspider are the best 'Mechs in the game (to be even more specific, only certain builds!).

Edited by RickySpanish, 11 December 2021 - 06:59 AM.

[John Bronco]

Tier is irrelevant, those are the straight facts.

[RickySpanish]

John Bronco, on 11 December 2021 - 06:58 AM, said:

Tier is irrelevant, those are the straight facts.

I call BS on your facts. Straight numbers show the totality of things but not specifics. Time of day and who you run up against is very important. Slow Assaults are the worst choice you can make, they get eaten alive most of the time. I can farm massive damage and matchscore at T4 in an Assault by virture of massed firepower. Can't do the same in T1. You and others make these broad statements because other tippy top players like Ash fling them about. Yet you make no question of their specifics. Show me these stats you speak of that you worship, show me a break down of Assault performance BY TIER, where those matches were properly matchmade and not given in to dredging T3 and below into T1. I will be waiting.

Edited by RickySpanish, 11 December 2021 - 07:05 AM.

[John Bronco]

Even if that is true (and it isn't) that would mean everything else performs even better than the facts show.

Edited by John Bronco, 11 December 2021 - 07:05 AM.

[RickySpanish]

John Bronco, on 11 December 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

Even if that is true (and it isn't) that would mean everything else performs even better than the facts show.

It's your word against mine mate. The only difference is I at least present a plausible explanation. You just say "stats!!" without the slightest insight into how reliable the "stats" are. We are at an impasse.

[Vyx]

martian, on 11 December 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

In my previous post I did not say that all assault pilots are bad. I talked about "Assault 'Mech pilot, who gets repeatedly caught by enemy light 'Mechs while alone and who can not defend himself". So please do not put in my mouth something I did not say.

I did not direct that comment to you. Others in the thread have made that assertion.

martian, on 11 December 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

The dominance of light 'Mechs in MWO? Since when?

I thought it obvious, but I was referring to my belief that in a light vs assault mid-game damaged-state encounter, the light tends to win ~60-75% of the time. Please refer to my previous posts on the subject.

martian, on 11 December 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

Do you realize that boosting Assault 'Mechs would boost them not only against light 'Mechs, but also against medium 'Mechs and heavy 'Mechs too? Essentially, you would boost already powerful class of 'Mechs and thus - relatively speaking - nerf all other weight classes? It would influence the balance of the entire game.

Granting a 5% boost to assault's rate-of-turn and arm-tracking as I've suggested would do very little to affect the damage done to other targets besides fast-movers. As I have said before, I believe it would simply allow the assault pilot to defend themselves ever-so-slightly better vs these kinds of threats.

---

We are getting into repetition now and little is to be gained by further debate. Many are entrenched in their beliefs and as you can see, so am I. Each side has only their in-game experiences to argue their point of view and we have beaten those to death. Only rehashing remains.

So I leave people with this: This topic and general perception rears its ugly head time and again on these forums and there must be a reason. As I've said before, it can't be because every assault pilot is bad. Perhaps there's something to it? The kind of change I am advocating for is so minor (5%?!) and so specific (it only affects assault mech class's ability to track fast-movers) that not trying it seems spiteful. Why not see if it helps? As it would basically be a 'spreadsheet change', it could easily be rolled-back if things go haywire -- and I'd be the first to advocate for that if it happens.

Anyway, take care and Happy Holidays.

Edited by Vyx, 11 December 2021 - 07:20 AM.

[John Bronco]

RickySpanish, on 11 December 2021 - 07:06 AM, said:

It's your word against mine mate. The only difference is I at least present a plausible explanation. You just say "stats!!" without the slightest insight into how reliable the "stats" are. We are at an impasse.

Well only Cauldron and PGI have numbers by chassis, and they've chosen to massively buff lights and leave assault agility where it is.