629 replies to this topic

[Ignatius Audene]

On your stats the one highlight is the 0% lights. Maybe try to switch perspective? And the avg. .match score of each weight class was presented bye pgi. So we got the stats to show, that bye ms wl and percentage of playerbase are the worst class

[justcallme A S H]

Vyx, on 09 December 2021 - 07:31 AM, said:

I believe my stats speak for me.

If you're as good as you claim you are - you should not be letting yourself get out of position such that a light can easily get that close.

Or simply deleting the lights long before they get near you.

Anyone competent can do this.

And no - lights are not remotely OP. They are still the worst overall performing class in the game - FACT.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 December 2021 - 02:32 PM.

[ThreeStooges]

justcallme A S H, on 09 December 2021 - 02:32 PM, said:

If you're as good as you claim you are - you should not be letting yourself get out of position such that a light can easily get that close.

Or simply deleting the lights long before they get near you.

Anyone competent can do this.

And no - lights are not remotely OP. They are still the worst overall performing class in the game - FACT.

You know what light mech is the worst of the worst and which is the best for both is and clan? Would be interesting to see which ones are the top and bottom end for both fractions. Or a ranking chart of all the lights sorted by fraction and chassis so we could compare them like 2c jenner d vs the is jenner d.

We all know they are the worst class in game by far but how bad within the light classes are lights against themselves?

[Bassault]

And life goes on as usual

[Blood Rose]

Vyx, on 09 December 2021 - 08:25 AM, said:

"WAAAAAAAGH A LIGHT MECH DARED TO NOT STAND STILL TO LET ME SHOOT IT IT DARED TO BE HARD TO HIT AND ACTUALLY SHOOT ME WAAAAAGH"

Get over yourself ******, or put your money where your mouth is and actually try a light out. You wont, of course. Im no pro player, im casual as ****, but I have no problem with lights. Do you know how? because I tried shooting them and do you know what, twin Heavy gauss at optimal range make Lights go 'poof' into so much scrap metal.
Im primarily a medium pilot, desite my desire to enjoy the big boys im simply better in my Enforcer or Wolverine than I am in my Corsair. My Enforcer is a good example here, I can easily get over 300 damage in a match and usually get a couple of kills and/or several KMDD (seriously, those should count as kills for forum stats, I get tons of them) with a good match score at the end. Baring bad luck what usually kills me is being overly aggressive.
With my Lights, well. Gods I want to love them, I want to enjoy them, but I cant. Getting into triple digits is hard enough on its own, but getting 200+ damage? Thats a rare dream. Im constantly on the move, constantly praying I wont be noticed, wont take incoming fire, because the second something serious looks at me im probably dead. An Assault or upper end Heavy that bothers to fart at me for a salvo will pretty much delete any of my Lights, despite them being max armour and having quirks, and even fire from the secondary batteries will drive me off if its well placed. They are a nightmare to play and do well in and the effort honestly does not justify the end result.
As it is, for me at least, Lights are only a problem if
>They wolfpack/swarm me and im out of position/allies cant help me
>Im cracked and a cheeki breeki gopnik comes screaming out of nowhere at 100mph to unload into my cracked sections, although one pass is rarely enough (MG boats like to face time here)
>They are providing support for the bigger boys who are, naturally, hogging the attention
Apart from that, a couple of cannon shells and a burst of laser fire and they run off. Usually hurt badly.

so, here is a suggestion:
Stop crying and start thinking. And maybe prioritise that free kill Light Mech thats trying to bully you.
Or IDK, run a fast medium with pulse lasers and go light hunting.

[justcallme A S H]

ThreeStooges, on 09 December 2021 - 03:29 PM, said:

You know what light mech is the worst of the worst and which is the best for both is and clan? Would be interesting to see which ones are the top and bottom end for both fractions. Or a ranking chart of all the lights sorted by fraction and chassis so we could compare them like 2c jenner d vs the is jenner d.

We all know they are the worst class in game by far but how bad within the light classes are lights against themselves?

Cauldron have access to some Chassis Data we used to look/aid some decisions although that is now quite dated so the answer would be no, plus it would be horribly misleading if it was released.

Hopefully we can attain some new/fresh data once all the quirk passes are done and settle for 3 months to get an accurate picture. Only upto around 70-75% of chassis being given attention so the landscape will change more yet.

So maybe April/May next year with fresh data we can do a writeup or something

[RickySpanish]

1453 R, on 09 December 2021 - 07:54 AM, said:

Not how forum discussions work, Vyx. You don't get to make claims, then say "Oh, this doesn't matter anyways, do whatever" and then deuce out with lordly disdain. You make claims, back 'em up or watch 'em get knocked down.

Light 'Mechs are not screwed up. They're not broken. They're not overpowered. Light 'Mechs are hated because they show a player exactly how inadequate they are - both when the player is shooting at one, and when the player is piloting one. Light 'Mechs strip away all the ******** and say "how good are you when your 'Mech isn't compensating for your problems?" The answer to that, for the majority of MWO players, is "heckin' terrible", and so players hate dealing with lights. They want to keep pretending they're better than they are, so every time they die to a Commando with eight SRM tubes and a big shiny brass set'a, they come onto the forums and start some new dumpster fire thread about how lights are just the worst.

Not because lights are awful. But because lights remind them that they are awful, and they can't deal with that.

Your particular ability to synthesize replies from amalgamating everyone else's posts rarely puts you on the other side of the controversial idea fence, but here I fear you may have stepped into unfamiliar territory. Even if by a toe hair. Lights do not necessarily take skill to do well in, they do not necessarily expose a bad player to the truth. The Piranha is an example - it really doesn't take a great deal of skill to run up behind another player. At lower tiers a Commando takes absolutely forever to die. Is the lag wall protecting that player due to skill? Does running about like a headless chicken take some great amount of tactical forsight? Lights are slightly more difficult to play than Heavies or Mediums, but once you breach that skill ceiling you're golden. As for why they are so rarely played, perhaps it's because most people don't fancy being the 'weakest' class.

[Curccu]

ThreeStooges, on 09 December 2021 - 03:29 PM, said:

We all know they are the worst class in game by far but how bad within the light classes are lights against themselves?

It depends so much on the build.
IMO one of the best light mechs Incubus-4 with ER meds can kill do tons of damage and keep range easily against heavier opponents and it is horrible against other short range light.
kinda same with MG piranha, pretty nice against fatties but 1v1 other light not so much fun, hard to keep that dakka on target all the time. But if you have micro pulse piranha.. Well that thing is great against other lights, short duration and high damage bursts with pretty nice heat.

[Vyx]

I figured I would try to ignore the uncivil ani inhabiting this echo-chamber of idiocy, but I find I cannot.

For the record, I don't deny any of your data regarding the "unpopularity" of playing lights -- "the poorest performing chassis in all the game". I know it's much more fun to put words in my mouth and pig-pile the dissenter. I get it.

But what I have held to all along, was that the relationship between lights and assaults is clearly broken. Not that lights are themselves broken. Versus every other weight class, lights seem to perform fine. But versus assaults in particular, I assert they are too strong.

In my opinion, if you pit 1 light vs 1 assault in a normal battlefield scenario, midway through a match with typical damage to each mech and considering equivalent pilot skill, the light will strike first, strike more often, strike for more overall damage during the encounter, and then easily escape if any of these are not true. This leads to roughly a 60-75% chance that the light will be victorious and kill the assault. In essence, mid-match, assaults are food for lights. It's a near given. I ask you: Name me one other 1-to-1 chassis matchup where this is so lopsided?

If there is another enemy mech entered into the equation, such as 1 more damaged light, or even a distant enemy contributing sporadic fire, the odds of the assault going down are near 100%. Notice that the total committed enemy tonnage in this scenario is ... <50 tons? My point is: in this future universe of stompy robots, why would anyone field anything other than lights? I could field 20 locusts/fleas for 400 tons. Or I could field 4-6 assaults of equivalent tonnage. Who do you think will win? Probably every single time?

Lights may get the brown end of the stick vs nearly every other chassis type. I don't dispute this. But versus assaults, they are overly strong. That is all I am saying. And I believe that is what the OP was saying as well.

Note: The reason I mentioned my stats at all was not to shame or invite others to "one vee one me bro" ... it was to ward-off the inevitable moronic comments stating "show us where the bad light mech touched you". Ha ha. Good one. I need to "change my build/ tactics" ... mhmm, right. My point is: my stats prove I do just fine. Could it be my considerable experience successfully playing assaults might grant me some insight into where a potential imbalance may lay?

Edited by Vyx, 10 December 2021 - 07:27 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

I figured I would try to ignore the uncivil ani inhabiting this echo-chamber of idiocy, but I find I cannot.

If you stand in front of the crowd and say something the crowd does not agree with, you blame the crowd for not being on your side. Got it.

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

This leads to roughly a 60-75% chance that the light will be victorious and kill the assault.

Enlighten me, where did you get those numbers? Otherwise I will assume anecdotal/thin-air was the source.

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

In essence, mid-match, assaults are food for lights. It's a near given. I ask you: Name me one other 1-to-1 chassis matchup where this is so lopsided?

Lights versus assaults. In my experience the opposite happens. I get jumped by a light, I patiently line up the shot and then vaporize the light. If I'm not torn up before the encounter, of course. I won't pretend to put percentile values on it, though.

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

If there is another enemy mech entered into the equation, such as 1 more damaged light, or even a distant enemy ally contributing sporadic fire, the odds of the assault going down are near 100%.

So you're saying that 2 players ganging up on one player gives them an advantage. Wow. That is a totally new idea.

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

Notice that the total committed enemy tonnage in this scenario is ... <50 tons? My point is: in this future universe of stompy robots, why would anyone field anything other than lights? I could field 20 locusts/fleas for 400 tons. Or I could field 4-6 assaults of equivalent tonnage. Who do you think will win? Probably every single time?

Two words... Mercer Ravannion. He died.

[Adeptus Odren]

Just to add fuel to the fire: I one-shotted a Kodiak from behind with one of my Locusts. The variant which can mount 4 rocket launchers.

[pbiggz]

Adeptus Odren, on 10 December 2021 - 08:28 AM, said:

Just to add fuel to the fire: I one-shotted a Kodiak from behind with one of my Locusts. The variant which can mount 4 rocket launchers.

*screams*

[pattonesque]

Assaults aren't food for lights, bad assaults are food for lights. but also bad assaults are food for anything.

[martian]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

I figured I would try to ignore the uncivil ani inhabiting this echo-chamber of idiocy, but I find I cannot.

Yeah, uncivility is a horrible thing:

Vyx, on 09 December 2021 - 08:05 AM, said:

Go stuff yourselves, forum warriors.

Vyx, on 09 December 2021 - 08:05 AM, said:

But what I have held to all along, was that the relationship between lights and assaults is clearly broken. Not that lights are themselves broken. Versus every other weight class, lights seem to perform fine. But versus assaults in particular, I assert they are too strong.

In my opinion, if you pit 1 light vs 1 assault in a normal battlefield scenario, midway through a match with typical damage to each mech and considering equivalent pilot skill, the light will strike first, strike more often, strike for more overall damage during the encounter, and then easily escape if any of these are not true. This leads to roughly a 60-75% chance that the light will be victorious and kill the assault. In essence, mid-match, assaults are food for lights. It's a near given. I ask you: Name me one other 1-to-1 chassis matchup where this is so lopsided?

If there is another enemy mech entered into the equation, such as 1 more damaged light, or even a distant enemy contributing sporadic fire, the odds of the assault going down are near 100%. Notice that the total committed enemy tonnage in this scenario is ... <50 tons?

There are two points that I would like to make, if I may:

First, all those things are your personal opinions. O.K., you are entitled to them.

However, to be accepted as "facts", you should show some stats or something similar that would support those claims. I mean, multiple records showing lots of 1:1 Light vs. Assault fights, etc.

Second, I think that some confirmation bias is in play: I guess that you remember strongly when some light 'Mech killed you, but you do not remember so strongly, when you one-shotted some enemy light 'Mech effortlessly in your Assault and moved on.

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

Lights may get the brown end of the stick vs nearly every other chassis type. I don't dispute this. But versus assaults, they are overly strong. That is all I am saying. And I believe that is what the OP was saying as well.

Thank you for your opinion. But obviously some other posters in this thread do not think so.

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

Note: The reason I mentioned my stats at all was not to shame or invite others to "one vee one me bro" ... it was to ward-off the inevitable moronic comments stating "show us where the bad light mech touched you". Ha ha. Good one. I need to "change my build/ tactics" ... mhmm, right. My point is: my stats prove I do just fine. Could it be my considerable experience successfully playing assaults might grant me some insight into where a potential imbalance may lay?

On onee hand you are saying that you "do just fine", when piloting Assault 'Mechs (and that usually includes dealing with light 'Mechs). On the other hand, you said "Light mechs stuffing themselves under my knees, shooting my pee-pee over and over again where I cannot even find them is definitely broken, if not a bit comical. It ceases being amusing however, around the 112th time."

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

My point is: in this future universe of stompy robots, why would anyone field anything other than lights? I could field 20 locusts/fleas for 400 tons. Or I could field 4-6 assaults of equivalent tonnage. Who do you think will win? Probably every single time?

Make up your mind: If you wish to discuss the MWO gameplay, you are in the right place.

If you wish to discuss the BattleTech lore, the right place for it is here: BattleTech Discussion

Just do not mix these two things together, please.

Edited by martian, 10 December 2021 - 10:33 AM.

[pattonesque]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

My point is: in this future universe of stompy robots, why would anyone field anything other than lights? I could field 20 locusts/fleas for 400 tons. Or I could field 4-6 assaults of equivalent tonnage. Who do you think will win? Probably every single time?

Why would anyone in Overwatch spend billions of dollars developing this guy's armor



if you can be almost as tough just by eating as much as this guy

[YueFei]

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

Lights may get the brown end of the stick vs nearly every other chassis type. I don't dispute this. But versus assaults, they are overly strong. That is all I am saying. And I believe that is what the OP was saying as well.

No, this is a false conclusion, even if I grant you your premise that in a 1v1, a perfectly piloted Light mech always defeats a perfectly piloted Assault mech. That still would not make Lights overly strong against Assaults, because Assault mechs can form a combat box and cover each other. Make it 2v2 or more, and the side with the Assaults has a massive advantage, because they can just peel for each other (well, less like "peeling" a Light off, and more like just outright splatting the Lights).

It was similar in World of Warcraft, at least in Vanilla. A perfectly-played Rogue would almost always defeat a Warrior in a 1v1. But this didn't mean Rogues were overly strong against Warriors. That's because that no longer held true in a group fight, because tricks that worked in 1v1 (like dead-zone kiting) would be completely inapplicable in a many vs many fight.

Vyx, on 10 December 2021 - 06:52 AM, said:

If there is another enemy mech entered into the equation, such as 1 more damaged light, or even a distant enemy contributing sporadic fire, the odds of the assault going down are near 100%. Notice that the total committed enemy tonnage in this scenario is ... <50 tons? My point is: in this future universe of stompy robots, why would anyone field anything other than lights? I could field 20 locusts/fleas for 400 tons. Or I could field 4-6 assaults of equivalent tonnage. Who do you think will win? Probably every single time?

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: we can easily envision that training competent Mechwarriors is more difficult than building more Mechs. Reality is not like an RTS where you can copy&pasta a unit and have it ready to operate at maximum potential. Industrial methods make it possible to churn out lots of copies of a vehicle fairly quickly, but we haven't quite figured out how to educate most human beings at faster paces.

Look at the history of aerial warfare. The vast vast majority of pilots just end up as targets getting shot down, never claiming even one victory for themselves. Only a small portion of pilots ever get a single kill, and an even smaller percentage of those pilots will make ace. What did the Germans and Japanese do with their best pilots? Fly 'em til they died. What did the USA do? Democratize those skills by pulling their best pilots from the front to bring home to train the rest. For the Japanese, once they'd lost the core of their most skilled pilots, although war-time production would end up building Zeros at a faster rate after Midway than they had been building them before it, they didn't have the skilled pilots to make use of those fighters. Building the fighters was comparatively easy, training more skilled pilots was much harder.

It doesn't matter if you can spam 1,000 Locusts if you're not going to be able to train 1,000 Mechwarriors to drive them. I guess you could stick barely-trained dudes in them and send them off, but all you're going to do is create a logistics nightmare for your own side as you pad the enemy's kill counts.

[Vyx]

I guess I must spell it out for you. When I say "in my opinion" it means "from my experience" and this is precisely "anecdotal". Demanding "proof" or "stats" from someone stating their experience is truly missing the point. The only proof I have is my record. There is no actual hard proof to be had, either for or against the assertion that lights are overly strong against assaults in the course of normal gameplay. At least, none that I am aware of.

I simply offered my perceptions as a reasonably competent assault pilot who's been around a few years. I offered a little levity with the pee-pee comment (we've all experienced it when piloting assaults at one time or another). Nothing more. I was answered with debasement and insults and so I returned in kind. Sue me.

I tried to contribute to the discussion. I guess I should have known better. Take it for what it's worth.

Edited by Vyx, 10 December 2021 - 10:41 AM.

[pbiggz]

You presented your opinions as authoritative and then snapped back rudely when people pushed back on you. You're only still here because you're mad you got called on it.

[Vyx]

pbiggz, on 10 December 2021 - 10:41 AM, said:

You presented your opinions as authoritative and then snapped back rudely when people pushed back on you. You're only still here because you're mad you got called on it.

Do they have no authority? As I stated before, I felt I had something to offer with my experience and record. I guess not.

I have learned from this, however. Next time, say nothing.

Edited by Vyx, 10 December 2021 - 10:48 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

nah mate;

you presented 'your experiences' in this game as fact and as coming from a pro;

when POLITELY pointed out by several people where your flaws are, you're calling EVERYBODY an idiot.


so.. yeah. "discussion" went along as expected before-hand.