629 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

Curccu, on 01 December 2022 - 08:59 AM, said:

Nascar is killing me pretty often though just can't keep up with rest of the team. and get jumped by 2-6 mediums & heavies pretty fast.

Missed this post. This is why assaults die to lights or any pack of mechs. Lights tend to be the ones that can reach them first when they get left behind so they are remembered more. But in reality any singled out mech is going to die in a fire vs several mechs gang banging it regardless of weight class.

[Curccu]

Meep Meep, on 02 December 2022 - 08:37 AM, said:

Missed this post. This is why assaults die to lights or any pack of mechs. Lights tend to be the ones that can reach them first when they get left behind so they are remembered more. But in reality any singled out mech is going to die in a fire vs several mechs gang banging it regardless of weight class.

Pretty much fast medium or light has option to disengage sub50kph assault does not, but single MG light coming and soloing my HGR anni... well sure if light pilot is seriusly good... like about 99 percentile good. But yeah for really it was wolf pack of fast'ish mediums, lights and sometimes heavies with mid range weaponry that got me when team ran away with insane pace.

[Blood Rose]

OP, occasional Light pilot here, and user of the dread stealth Flea
Games either go one of two ways for me
Either the enemy is asleep and doesnt notice me bobbing out of cover to drop 4ERML's on them, or at least a couple of them are awake and I evaporate. And trust me, some players are drowsy, I can sometimes stand in the open and get 3 or 4 volleys in whilst lighting them up with TAG before anyone even bothers to turn from their ridge humping. I have followed Heavies and Assaults, unloading into their backs as I do, and they have not bothered to look my way until I have chewed through that armour.
Othertimes I get unlucky, get spotted, and get vaporised. Dual gauss setup, does 30 damage. 30 damage to a Fafnir? Hurts. A Crud? Painful. A Shadowhawk or Vindicator? You'll live, most times, but your hurting bad.
30 damage to a Flea? Whatever was hit is now gone, and the mech is either dead or crippled. Likewise to a Locust. I dont even bother with 30 tonners or heavier, bar the Urbanmech and Incubus, they are just too large and fragile. Lights rely on not being seen, none ECM and Stealth Lights even more so. Want to know what happens when an SRM Hellspawn or Huntsman hits a 20-25 tonner? At best, if the range is long and the spread wide, they have several breached sections. A close range concentrated volley deletes it.
And before you cry Light bias, I usually run Mediums or Assaults, my current favourite being a dual gauss Fafnir, backed by a brawler Enforcer. Lights are an afterthought, if im feeling lucky.
but dont take my word for it. Buy a Light, Trick it out. Jump in it and record yourself then upload it and show us all your mad skills as you solo half the enemy team.

[Maj Destruction]

Funny to see folks still ranting about lights a year later.

I may have already shared my experience earlier in this thread, but when I started MWO last year, I was mostly in mediums and assaults. Tried lights a few times before I knew what I wanted, got destroyed, switched back to assaults and got to where I got clear some good damage. Over time, I got my assault tore up by lights a few times....it didn't happen often, but when it did, it was absolutely infuriating, and zero fun (so I do empathize with the light complaints here, sorta). Think I even posted here about it. After a few months (and after learning some MWO basics), I decided to try lights again to see what it's all about and maybe figure out how to counter them. This time it was actually FUN, despite the brutal punishment I got sometimes when I put myself in the wrong place. Now about the only thing I run is a stealth Flea, a hotrodded Urbie now and then, and one or two other lights on rare occasions to shake things up.

Tried an assault again a while back, and it felt like I forgot how to play.. It also wasn't much fun.

"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." Guess I joined 'em. I will say this: I find the assaults easier to rack up points and damage, but harder from a strategy standpoint and for making myself valuable to the team. Lights are harder to play if I'm trying to rack up a big score. But, I'd have to say, lights are easier and less hassle to play when I just want to run out and have fun (and, after all, that's the only reason I'm here). There are more ways to screw up in a light, but there are also more ways to get an advantage and help your team (somewhat dependent on game mode, of course). Lights offer more varied and interesting ways of playing. And, it's safer and easier to experiment with various tactics, and generally learn. If I find myself in a bad position (too much enemy fire, no good shooting angles, too far from the main battle, in front of a big mech, etc) I have the sneakiness and agility to (usually) get myself out of it quick.

If you think something is op, well....run it for yourself and dominate everyone then.

Matt

[martian]

Maj Destruction, on 03 December 2022 - 11:18 PM, said:

If you think something is op, well....run it for yourself and dominate everyone then.

Matt

I have noticed that this is something what many players crying "Lights are OP and easy to play" never do. Not even when PGI gives them good light 'Mechs for free.

[Weeny Machine]

martian, on 03 December 2022 - 11:36 PM, said:

I have noticed that this is something what many players crying "Lights are OP and easy to play" never do. Not even when PGI gives them good light 'Mechs for free.

This applies to me. I play all kind of mechs and not just meta mechs - even ones which are shunned. Why? Because I play for fun and it is priceless to read in chat from one of the better players "FO" when your crappy Huggin saws off both legs of his meta laser spam Hellbringer.
Of course this can go horribly wrong as well hehe

Edited by Weeny Machine, 04 December 2022 - 12:32 AM.

[martian]

Weeny Machine, on 04 December 2022 - 12:32 AM, said:

This applies to me. I play all kind of mechs and not just meta mechs - even ones which are shunned. Why? Because I play for fun and it is priceless to read in chat from one of the better players "FO" when your crappy Huggin saws off both legs of his meta laser spam Hellbringer.
Of course this can go horribly wrong as well hehe

Very good.

But I meant that many people who are calling for the light 'Mechs nerfing are actually playing them minimally or not all.

I have heard all kinds of answers:

• "I do not have spare C-Bills." or "I do not own them."
  
• "Lights are so easy to play that they are no challenge for me."
  
• "I would play them, but I do not want such easy mode."
  
• "I do not like their appearance."
  
• "They do not have exactly that loadout that I want.
  
• My 100 ton Daishi lacks the firepower to kill them."
  
• etc.

Essentially, those people have a million of excuses why they do not play light 'Mechs. But they are all sure that light 'Mechs should be removed from the game.

[Weeny Machine]

The same old

martian, on 04 December 2022 - 02:55 AM, said:

Very good.

But I meant that many people who are calling for the light 'Mechs nerfing are actually playing them minimally or not all.

I have heard all kinds of answers:

• "I do not have spare C-Bills." or "I do not own them."
  
• "Lights are so easy to play that they are no challenge for me."
  
• "I would play them, but I do not want such easy mode."
  
• "I do not like their appearance."
  
• "They do not have exactly that loadout that I want.
  
• My 100 ton Daishi lacks the firepower to kill them."
  
• etc.

Essentially, those people have a million of excuses why they do not play light 'Mechs. But they are all sure that light 'Mechs should be removed from the game.

The problem is that you cannot speak about lights in general. After the re-sizing a couple of years ago there are two groups now:
1. 30-35t (especially the later) who got shafted and are the size of medium mechs and easy to hit. That's why they have also nearly the armour of meds nowadays

2. the 20-25t mechs who are really hard to hit if a skilled pilot controls them

Fun fact: the agility (turning, de-/accelerate etc) got also shafted on the 30-35t mechs. They behave more like mediums. All these things you need to stay out of the firing arc of assaults

Add to that that the assault players cried their little hearts out...until turning was desynced from engine size which helped assaults and heavies even more.

Summa summarum: The game caters to the fatties and that's why it became stale. Laser spam on huge ranges or vomit on mid range with absurd alphas. To achieve that you go heavy or assault. And of course these players hate the small and fast MG mechs because they are the only one who can really ruin their day

Edited by Weeny Machine, 09 December 2022 - 07:32 AM.

[JediPanther]

Weeny Machine, on 04 December 2022 - 05:37 AM, said:

The same old


The problem is that you cannot speak about lights in general. After the re-sizing a couple of years ago there are two groups now:
1. 30-35t (especially the later) who got shafted and are the size of medium mechs and easy to hit. That's why they have also nearly the armour of meds nowadays


Fun fact: the agility (turning, de-/accelerate etc) got also shafted of the 30-35t mechs. They behave more like mediums. All these things you need to stay out of the firing arc of assaults

Exactly why I hardly run any of my 35ts except for maybe the one time 2x first win payout just to get some tad bit xp more on one of my crappier lights like the Jenner-K. The only reason the rvn sees any use is due to magic box/stealth. Mgs can be fun but with all the boring 60plus alpha spam I find spls or er smls easier with less standing and shooting which allows someone that much less time to line up a shot on my mech.

I miss running the D and sarah jenners. Playing them with spls/mpls just gets so dull. I've got the pnts for when I want to go lppc spaming.

[Rumble Seat CoPilot]

JediPanther, on 04 December 2022 - 09:10 AM, said:

I miss running the D and sarah jenners. Playing them with spls/mpls just gets so dull. I've got the pnts for when I want to go lppc spaming.

I just bought the Osiris Sekhmet during the Thanksgiving sale, plugged 4 Sm Pls and left the 2 HMG's in it. It's very underused / underrated Mech IMHO.

[pbiggz]

HolyGrail101, on 04 December 2022 - 05:33 PM, said:

I just bought the Osiris Sekhmet during the Thanksgiving sale, plugged 4 Sm Pls and left the 2 HMG's in it. It's very underused / underrated Mech IMHO.

Do not underestimate the effect threat assessment (or lack there-of) has on your success. If I take a Madcat MK II with double UAC10 double CERPPC into a match, I get focused to death. The exact same build on a Highlander IIC scores me 600+ damage, fairly consistently. People see a highlander and just don't seem as keen to shoot it; that's their loss.

I'm willing to bet people see your Osiris and ignore it, thinking it won't do much harm; again, that's their loss, and your gain.

[topgun505]

Haven't posted on MWO in a long time. I came back to MWO after a number of years off. The lights situation (especially with the current state of MGs and to a smaller extent the Snubs) had me scratching my head. Just for giggles, I booted up MegaMek and set up a scenario. A MG based PIR vs an Atlas (in this run through the K4 with standard loadout 2 ERPPC, 2 SRM-6, Rotary 5. Set it to grasslands terrain (so mostly flat with some valleys here and there. Through armor criticals were turned on (actually I wanted to turn them off but for some reason the program wasn't letting me so I just let it go and rolled with it).

Now ... granted I have terrible luck with initiative rolls. The PIR only was able to move last just once so I was not able to get any back shots. But the end result was this. The PIR died. In just 4 rounds! The Atlas was merely scratched. The Atlas had a 4/5 pilot, the PIR had a better pilot with 3/4. I was playing the PIR and was moving as fast as I could to get maximum movement bonuses.

I will probably do more of these games to compare results. The question is ... how many games would make a viable dataset? What variables would you like to see added to the equation (more varied elevations of terrain? Better pilot in the PIR? Or the Atlas? etc).

Again this is mainly just for fun. But your thoughts are welcome.

Edited by topgun505, 06 December 2022 - 06:21 AM.

[pbiggz]

topgun505, on 06 December 2022 - 06:20 AM, said:

Haven't posted on MWO in a long time. I came back to MWO after a number of years off. The lights situation (especially with the current state of MGs and to a smaller extent the Snubs) had me scratching my head. Just for giggles, I booted up MegaMek and set up a scenario. A MG based PIR vs an Atlas (in this run through the K4 with standard loadout 2 ERPPC, 2 SRM-6, Rotary 5. Set it to grasslands terrain (so mostly flat with some valleys here and there. Through armor criticals were turned on (actually I wanted to turn them off but for some reason the program wasn't letting me so I just let it go and rolled with it).

Now ... granted I have terrible luck with initiative rolls. The PIR only was able to move last just once so I was not able to get any back shots. But the end result was this. The PIR died. In just 4 rounds! The Atlas was merely scratched. The Atlas had a 4/5 pilot, the PIR had a better pilot with 3/4. I was playing the PIR and was moving as fast as I could to get maximum movement bonuses.

I will probably do more of these games to compare results. The question is ... how many games would make a viable dataset? What variables would you like to see added to the equation (more varied elevations of terrain? Better pilot in the PIR? Or the Atlas? etc).

Again this is mainly just for fun. But your thoughts are welcome.

Apples and oranges; the classic battletech justification for light mechs is two fold; recon, and cost. An atlas like a gazillion dollar death machine. A piranha might be clan tech, but relatively speaking, its a bargain bin mech. Its not even an omnimech so even the clans saw it that way.

In MWO, the objective (despite what the game modes say) is essentially to kill the other team; therefore, all mechs, light to assault, need a fighting chance to do that. The balancing goals are fundamentally different.

[martian]

HolyGrail101, on 04 December 2022 - 05:33 PM, said:

I just bought the Osiris Sekhmet during the Thanksgiving sale, plugged 4 Sm Pls and left the 2 HMG's in it. It's very underused / underrated Mech IMHO.

I think that the reason why "Sekhmet" is underused is that "Pirates' Bane" can carry the same loadout of quad lasers and a pair of machine guns, while:

• being smaller
  
• nimbler
  
• having ECM / Stealth
  
• being cheaper

Sure, "Sekhmet" can carry more armor, but "Pirates' Bane" is better in not getting hit in the first place.

[Der Geisterbaer]

topgun505, on 06 December 2022 - 06:20 AM, said:

Just for giggles, I booted up MegaMek and set up a scenario.A MG based PIR vs an Atlas (in this run through the K4 with standard loadout 2 ERPPC, 2 SRM-6, Rotary 5.

So you decided to set up a scenario in a game that usually balances encounters via "BattleValue" that completely ignores said balance mechanic in order to do hwat exactly? Hopefully you didn't delude yourself into thinking that you could simulate a 1 vs 1 encounter in an entirely different game with entirely different mechanics and balance considerations?!

topgun505, on 06 December 2022 - 06:20 AM, said:

Set it to grasslands terrain (so mostly flat with some valleys here and there.

And then you further bias the already biased "test scenario" (the Atlas K4 having more than double BV over the PIR) to a map that favours the longer range weapons of the Atlas and provides little to none way for the PIR to close gaps without being exposed to enemy fire every round.

topgun505, on 06 December 2022 - 06:20 AM, said:

I will probably do more of these games to compare results.

And what exactly do you hope to find? It's not as if your totally useless comparison between two different games where you straight up chose to ignore the main balancing mechanic and then biased it further against one of the mechs already indicates that there's a forgone "conclusion": "Light mechs in MW:O are OP but Assault mechs should reign supreme"

topgun505, on 06 December 2022 - 06:20 AM, said:

The question is ... how many games would make a viable dataset?

There is no number of games that could ever create a "viable dataset" because the comparision itself is flawed from the start and you methodology of outright ignoring the basic balancing mechanism along with further biasing the test via map selection is then just the icing on the cake of "useless waste of your and our time".

topgun505, on 06 December 2022 - 06:20 AM, said:

What variables would you like to see added to the equation (more varied elevations of terrain? Better pilot in the PIR? Or the Atlas? etc).

None, because it'll always be an apples to oranges comparison where results in one game do not and cannot reflect on results of the other game.

topgun505, on 06 December 2022 - 06:20 AM, said:

Again this is mainly just for fun.

For my taste you have a very "interesting" definition of "fun".

topgun505, on 06 December 2022 - 06:20 AM, said:

But your thoughts are welcome.

We'll see about that.

______________________________________

pbiggz, on 06 December 2022 - 06:25 AM, said:

The balancing goals are fundamentally different.

And along with those also the balancing factors and mechanics

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 07 December 2022 - 05:30 AM.

[Meep Meep]

martian, on 06 December 2022 - 06:37 AM, said:

I think that the reason why "Sekhmet" is underused is that "Pirates' Bane" can carry the same loadout of quad lasers and a pair of machine guns, while:

• being smaller
  
• nimbler
  
• having ECM / Stealth
  
• being cheaper

Sure, "Sekhmet" can carry more armor, but "Pirates' Bane" is better in not getting hit in the first place.

Ecm is such a game changer for lights. Not having that red dorito over your mech can literally make you invisible to some players especially with good camo and positioning.

However as a wolf pack animal and flanking sniper I'd take this over the sekhmet due to the quirks and better hardpoints.

If you can't use ecm then range is your next best friend to stay alive.

osr-2v

[Blood Rose]

Meep Meep, on 06 December 2022 - 02:23 PM, said:

Ecm is such a game changer for lights. Not having that red dorito over your mech can literally make you invisible to some players especially with good camo and positioning.

However as a wolf pack animal and flanking sniper I'd take this over the sekhmet due to the quirks and better hardpoints.

If you can't use ecm then range is your next best friend to stay alive.

osr-2v

I said it before, but you would not believe the number of people you can walk up to whilst waving a TAG about and be completely ignored, just because your stealth mech has no spicy dorito

[Meep Meep]

Don't even need stealth if you have a long enough optimal range. Fully bonused ecm cuts sensor range by 75% so the typical 800m sensor range won't lock you up till you hit 200m or less and the 1280 you get from skills and a probe is cut to 320m so as long as you stay outside of those ranges you are effectively stealthed without the drawbacks. Thats why the -10% ecm bonus for that urbie is so powerful. Knocks down targeting range for a fully sensor boosted mech to 192m.

Oh and was messing around with that osiris fit and you can stick on a light 250 engine for better survivability and still go more than fast enough to flank and run with a pack.

osr-2v

[hbgpanther]

I don't know, I tend to get on well enough just blowing the legs if I can't knock them off in a good direct hit higher up.

[martian]

Meep Meep, on 06 December 2022 - 02:23 PM, said:

Ecm is such a game changer for lights. Not having that red dorito over your mech can literally make you invisible to some players especially with good camo and positioning.

However as a wolf pack animal and flanking sniper I'd take this over the sekhmet due to the quirks and better hardpoints.

If you can't use ecm then range is your next best friend to stay alive.

osr-2v

"Sekhmet" is in an unfortunate position: "Pirates' Bane" does the sneak job better. And if you wish to go with the firepower without ECM, you can just buy the Firestarter with its eight energy hardpoints and boat a wide assortment of energy weapons. Since there is no Battle Value in MWO, there is no reason why not to buy a better 'Mech.